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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Allison Stewart. A historical marker project in upstate New York seeks to preserve the legacy of the bygone resort era that was so important to Jewish Americans. Our guests are behind the Borscht Belt historical project. Once a popular destination in the early 20th century, the Catskill Resorts provided an oasis for Jewish families to escape the city heat in the summer, relax, and celebrate their Jewishness and Americanness. Anti-Semitism kept many from staying at other resorts, so they created their own.

The popularity of this once-thriving vacation destination started to decline in the latter half of the century, and many of these hotels are now in ruins. Now, a group of dedicated individuals are on the mission to note places of historical significance while reflecting on the role the Borscht Belt played in American Jewish life and within the Catskill region. There are four so far. One unveiled in Monticello in May, Mount Dale and Swan Lake in August, and Fallsburg last month. We'll ask our guests about those locations and others on the list. Marissa Seinfeld joins us today. She's a photographer and also the founder and project director for the Borscht Belt Historical Marker Project. Hi, Marissa. Ooh, Marissa's frozen. Let's see if we can. Also joining us--

Marissa Seinfeld: Hi. Thanks so much for having me on.

Alison Stewart: Oh, there we go. Also joining us is Isaac Jeffries. He's a photographer and the visual coordinator for the Borscht Belt historical project. Isaac, nice to meet you.

Isaac Jeffries: Nice to meet you. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Hey, listeners, we'd like you to join in this conversation. Have you been to the Borscht Belt in its heyday? How often did you go? What did it mean to your family? Tell us where you stayed. What shows did you see? What it meant to you? Maybe you grew up in the Catskills. How often do people talk about the resorts and entertainment scene? Give us a call or send us a text, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC.

You can call in and join us on air with your memories of the Borscht Belt, or you can reach out to us on social media @AllOfItWNYC. You can also text that number by the way, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We are talking about the historical significance of the Borscht Belt. Isaac, I'll start with you. What is the first thought comes to your mind when you think of the Borscht Belt?

Isaac Jeffries: Oh, I'm going to have to do this with a rapid-fire answer. Glamor, liberation, freedom, excitement, entertainment, glory, wonder, anything positive. Just anything positive. That's what I think of when I think of the Borscht Belt.

Alison Stewart: Marissa, how about for you? When I say the Borscht Belt, what do you think? What comes to mind?

Marissa Seinfeld: I think of a little piece of paradise cut in a beautiful mountain range where community and culture and family and friendship was forged with impacts that still echo today.

Alison Stewart: Isaac, some people hear Borscht Belt and they know exactly what we're talking about, or some are like, "Oh, was that in Dirty Dancing or Mrs. Maisel?" For clarification, when we talk about the Borscht Belt, where are we talking about exactly, what counties, et cetera?

Isaac Jeffries: We're talking about mainly Sullivan County, which comprised, I think, there were 538 hotels, if we're getting down to the exact numbers, or recorded. 538 hotels in history. About, I'd say 500 of those 538 hotels existed in Sullivan County. Monticello, Loch Sheldrake, Liberty, anything in that area. Then there were a few in Ulster County in the Ellenville, Kerhonkson area.

It's about 90 minutes outside of New York, that's how they advertised it back in the '50s and '60s. It was a easy trek, especially during the height of inter-American car travel. When I talk to people about the Borscht Belt that don't know anything about it, I just say, imagine, again, a lost paradise, but something that predates Vegas. Just a continuous breeding ground of entertainment and color and that mid-century modern motel aesthetic that really is, I feel like what the Borscht Belt is at its core.

Alison Stewart: Marissa, when was the height of the Borscht Belt? When was it really thriving?

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Alison Stewart: Marissa, are you there? We're having connection issues with Marissa, so we're going to see if we can get Marissa's connection issues set up. Isaac, you're on the hot seat for a little while. [laughs] Oh, we don't hear Isaac either. I wonder if our Zoom connection is just being wacky. Isaac, can you say hello to me?

Isaac Jeffries: I can.

Alison Stewart: There you are.

Isaac Jeffries: I hear you.

Alison Stewart: When was the height of the Borscht Belt? When was it really popping?

Isaac Jeffries: Some will argue that it was pre-World War II because that was really, I guess, when you had the droves and droves of people coming up via train when it was a six-hour train ride and they still deliberately found a way to come up here and just celebrate, but I would say the peak, the real peak of the Borscht Belt was the late '50s to early '60s.

By 1965 once air travel became popular, air conditioning was a normal thing, Jews and basically anybody else in New York was able to drive anywhere else in the country rather than just upstate New York. I think it just fell out of fashion. Also, I take it into consideration that these resorts were built with multiple ballrooms and indoor pools and this, that, and the third. It wasn't about that in the '70s. It was about singles' weekends and discotheques. [chuckle] It didn't really hang on as much as much as I'd like to dream that it would, but it had its moment and then had a rather swift downfall.

Alison Stewart: Marissa. I think we got Marissa on the phone. Marissa, what would be an average day for someone at one of these hotels in the Borscht Belt?

Marissa Seinfeld: Sure. Well, the hotels were replete with activities. They had basically MCs that in Yiddish you would say tumbler. These tumblers would get people from day to night. Waking up, having breakfast, going for maybe a dip in the pool, playing bingo, playing shuffleboard, playing cards. There were lectures at different hotels. Some hotels had different angles, health.

Some were all about entertainment, some were about sports. Some were all about children's activities. Really they served the gamut of population from really adult-centric hotels to family hotels. It was really an all-you-can-do, all-you-can-eat, everything-you-could-ever-want experience.

Alison Stewart: We're getting some calls in. Let's talk to Amy from Northport, New York. Hi Amy. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Amy: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I'm calling because my family would not exist without the Borscht Belt. My grandmother was a nanny with a family there. My grandfather was working his way through college in the kitchen, and they only met because there was a fire. They met as they stood outside watching the hotel burn to the ground.

Alison Stewart: Oh my gosh. That story went someplace I didn't expect. [laughs] Amy, thank you for calling in. Let's talk to Sandy from Rye Brook. Hi Sandy. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Sandy: Hi. Well, we just about grew up in the Borscht Belt. My parents were immigrants and they worked six days a week and they had four children and they didn't know what to do with us. We had a nanny and they would send us to a hotel called the Excelsior. In the hotel, maybe it was Loch Sheldrake. They would come up on the weekends to see us.

Then when we got old enough to go to camp, my parents would go to, you name the hotel, The Nevele, The Concord, the Grossinger's. Every night's hotel, Swan Lake Mansion, Swan Lake Hotel. These were all the places. Little by little they, we grew up, and then all of a sudden everybody started to go to Florida instead.

Alison Stewart: There you go. That's part of the story we've been hearing. Got a text, "At about five to seven years old, family went to Grossinger's. Had my first crush on a little boy, and remember being almost as high as women's busts in the crowd. My, they were pointy best ice skating rink." [laughs] That's a comment.

Isaac Jeffries: [unintelligible 00:09:10].

Alison Stewart: Oh, my guests are Marissa Seinfeld and Isaac Jeffries. We are talking about the Borscht Belt Historical Marker Project. If you'd like to call in and share your relationship with the Borscht Belt, maybe you went there as a kid, maybe your family told stories, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air, or you can send us a text to that number as well. Isaac, the Borscht Belt Historical Marker Project posted a flyer of Donna Summer, the queen of disco's performance at the Concord, where she sang twice. In terms of the music scene, what was the Borscht Belt sound like?

Isaac Jeffries: Well, I think each decade had its own moment. When I think of the Borscht Belt in the '50s and the 60s and even back in the '40s and '30s, you think of klezmer you think of very Jewish sounding vocal based, just soulful music that was filling at the casinos as they would call them because the performance spaces they would always call casinos back into the 1800s.

You had this really culturally-based music but then at the same time you would have these great stars, the Tony Bennett's, the Neil Sedaka's, I'm trying to think, Steve and Eydie, anybody that you could think that was on I Love Lucy or part of that era in the '50s, they performed there, but what I think people overlook which I always find to be really interesting is that in the late '60s to early '90s as these hotels were weaning out, this was the peak of disco, was the peak of when the teen pop singers started becoming really popular.

They had RuPaul performing at the Concord in the '90s. Like we said Donna Summer, Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin. There's this whole like I wouldn't call it more modern, but it's more easily recognizable to people that really maybe know Steve and Eydie or Eddie Cantor, or something like that.

Who's the other one? Nina Simone, she performed at a hotel called the Laurels in Monticello, and when I found that out, it was such an interesting revelation because the Borscht Belt really spans from the earliest, earliest piano recordings Artie Shaw style stuff to the James Brown gigantic production loudness and it's amazing. The Concord actually had the largest nightclub in the country at one time. It held I think 3,500 people but it was the largest.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Harold calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Harold, thanks for calling All Of It.

Harold: Hi, guys, so glad you're having this show. Grew up in Brooklyn in Sea Gate on the beach and every year, at least twice, we would go up to several of the hotels. I think our favorite ended up being the Nevele which was part of the family of Grossingers but we had visited all of them. What stands out are the great shows Alan King, Buddy Hackett, Phyllis Diller, now of course, I'm eight, nine, ten years old. We went rowboating shuffleboard, played tennis.

I remember the parents getting all dressed up in the evening to go out with Ming Stoves, and all of that style of the time and go to the shows and the cocktail parties, and get home late, late at night. My brother and I were tucked in maybe in another room. I do just remember fabulous food, endless gigantic platters of food, and interesting how your guests brought up the '70s now. As a teenager went up with my high school friends in a bus, I think we went to the Nevele that was organized for a single college. We might have been too young.

Alison Stewart: Oh, yes.

Harold: I guess they were trying to get the new generation in there, but what stands out of that trip is the second night there was a marijuana bus.

Alison Stewart: Oh, Harold, I'm going to dive in here. [laughs] That story was going somewhere. Harold, thank you for calling in and sharing your memories. We're talking about the Borscht Belt Historical Marker Project with Marisa Scheinfeld. Scheinfeld, I think I'm saying it right. Isaac Jeffreys, after the break we'll get into the project, what's going on, how they started it, where it's going, this is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC, I'm Allison Stewart. We are discussing the Borscht Belt Historical Marker Project with Marisa Scheinfeld, Founder and Director, and Isaac Jeffreys, Marker Project Photographer and Visual Coordinator. Okay. Marisa, let's get into this. In 2022, you founded the Borscht Belt Historical Marker Project, what was the initial catalyst for this project, what's its goal?

Marisa Scheinfeld: Sure. Well, I grew up in the Borscht Belt and in 2016, I published the photography book about it and documented the ruins. A handful of years later, I got an offer from a very generous philanthropist to fund historic markers and really taking a look around the Borscht Belt region as impactful as it was. There it was not one historic marker to commemorate its existence in either Sullivan or Ulster County. I put together a team. We have Isaac, we have Louis Inghiltera. We have a county historian, John Conway, Kelly Huggins, she's our copyright editor, and we have David Holstein.

We're just a really dedicated group that are putting together a trail of 20 markers. They're going to be united by a audio driving tour and each marker has a dedication. They have immersive programs and they're really meant to be for people of all ages, all demographics to teach about the vibrant history of the region and ensure that the legacy is forever marked and identified.

Alison Stewart: Isaac, tell us a little bit about the four markers that you have been successful in having placed.

Isaac Jeffreys: Well, the best part about the markers is that we get to have four images on each of them. It's good for a historic marker to have any visual component to go along with it because we know the classic New York State historic markers that just say the words. You drive past them on the street, and it's nice that they're there but what do they do beyond. Just be a hulk of metal.

What I like about our markers is that they go into like, for example, let me think, the Monticello marker that's a great example for the other ones that we have. It tells you about the main hotels that were kind of the lay of the land in Monticello where you'd want to go Kutshers, the Laurels, what the hotels offered. Laurels was big in boating and nightlife like the single scene, and then Kutshers was big in the sports scene.

Then you go on into either their significance within the town or the celebrities that played at them so that marker I think it mentions Joan Rivers and I think Nina Simone, something like that, or maybe [unintelligible 00:16:29] one of the three of them. I think they're vibrant in the way that they're presented. We have a really lovely color scheme that we were able to choose that's an homage to the teal blue colors of Borscht Belt's past. In terms of getting them in the ground, we have to really be on it with the leaders of the towns and the little municipalities because some of these places are towns, some of them are hamlets within towns, but when the Borscht Belt was vibrant--

The area still is very vibrant by the way. It's still very bustling but when the Borscht Belt was, during its prime or during its peak, you would have a little hamlet which may have one road have 60 different hotels on that one road. There's a lot of navigation to do, there's a lot of thought that we have to put into because our main thing is we want them to be accessible and we want them to be able so that you can digest them and see them so that you're not, again, not driving past them and just saying, "Oh, it's nice that's there."

It's nice to actually live it and breathe it and see it in person. Aside from all of this seeing the words Borscht Belt cemented into metal into the ground for the foreseeable future, it made me a little teary-eyed when I first saw it because it really is a really big win for a moment in history that I don't think has ever really gotten its fair share of recognition.

Alison Stewart: Let's take some calls our phone lines are full by the way. Lois from Westchester. Hi, Lois, thanks for calling in.

Lois: Hi. Well, nobody's mentioned bungalow colonies yet and they were-- I don't think. Have they? Anyway. They were small places where families who couldn't afford the big hotels cement. I was hired as the director of the Day Camp and the day I arrived there the first day I looked across the grass and there I saw a guy and I immediately fell in love with him. It turns out he was a waiter and guess what, later on, we got married, and guess where we went on our honeymoon, the Nevele where I am proud to say, I still have a trophy I won for winning a dance contest there.

Alison Stewart: Best story, Lois. Thank you so much for calling in. Andy is calling us from Charleston South Carolina. Hi, Andy, thanks for calling All Of It.

Andy: Oh, yes, this thing brings up a lot of memories for me. I'm from Brooklyn originally I'm in Charleston South Carolina now. What Lois said about the bungalow colonies that was my first experience as a small child the Hex. There was Rosenberg's and there was a, let's see, Boris's Bungalow Colony, and then later years, our grandparents would take us to-- We'd be in the bungalow colony but we would go with our grandparents to dinner, and a show at the Concord.

We were grossing as Kutshers for the holidays and we saw all the whole list of Jewish comedians which I won't even go into because everybody knows who they are I would think anybody of my age I'm 67 now. One minute I was in east New York in the projects, the low-income housing projects, and the next minute, I was up in the country with cows and horses and the next minute, I was watching a show at the Concorde. It was a really nice way to experience some things we just couldn't afford.

Alison Stewart: Andy, thank you for calling in. He hit all the notes with that one. Scott is calling in from Monroe, New York. Hi Scott. Thanks for calling All of It.

Scott: Yes. Hi, my name is Scott Rose Marin and my family has owned a bungalow colony in Monroe for the past 80 years. We're still operating. My family started running it in 1942 and down in this part of Orange County, there were about 40 bungalow economies with the Bungalow County Association. Of course, my dad was a member of and we're only eight minutes from the famous Red Apple Rest, which was really a part of everybody's scene that they were going up to the Catskills. They would stop at the Red Apple on the way up. I have fond memories of the families coming up year after year.

They would spend the whole summer here and develop relationships over the years. Mahjong, Canasta, Sunday softball games, and of course, Saturday night in the casino to see the different shows, the singer and the comedian. Of course, a new family may come. It might've been their first night in the casino. They didn't know where to sit and they would sit up front, someone would come over to them and say "You can't sit there. That's Hardy's seat. That was for Marisa.

Alison Stewart: Scott, thank you for calling in. Marisa, did you want to react? Respond?

Marisa Scheinfeld: Yes, my grandparents went to Scott's family's bungalow colony for 50 years so he just made a little shout-out to my late great-grandmother. The connections just runs so deep. The Borscht Belt really does connect everyone in the sense that we were a part of it. If you weren't living it exactly you heard about it. In that way, it transcends to be part of who you are. A super special place and loved hearing from Scott.

Alison Stewart: I've got a text here that says, I have a house in the middle of the belt. I'm so excited to hear this. I always drive around and I see these historic structures. It breaks my heart to see them falling apart. Marisa, you have a book titled The Borscht Belt: Revisiting the Remains of America's Jewish Vacation Land, featuring essays and photos of the Borscht Belt. What is it like to step inside some of these resorts and these ruins?

Marisa Scheinfeld: It's sublime, it's surreal. The ones that I went to as a kid it's highly emotional and drives that side of my brain. Overall, the project really and to photograph them these compounds where entropy and mother nature is taking them back and they're a mix of fascinating melancholic wondrous you never know what you were going to find. It took me about five or six years to make the book because each time I went, there was always a new narrative that I learned amid the history. It was definitely an experience every time you go to a hotel. I know Isaac is still photographing a lot of Borscht Belt hotels so he may have some words on that too.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask what, as a photographer, what is interesting to you about photographing these ruins?

Isaac Jeffreys: The thing I like about the Borscht Belt is that it makes me think a lot of different things. It makes your brain just go crazy because it's all these different little pieces of things to learn. What I love about the hotels is that I see them themselves as art. I see them as pieces of art that were created half the time by actual really, really artistically driven, mid-century architects that were big in Miami and they would have these really lovely wall pieces and sculptures and stuff commissioned for them. There's something about these places that just gives me this essence or aura, whatever the word is, this feeling of not creepiness.

When you go into an abandoned building, normally you feel probably a little bit of a harrowing ominous feeling. With the Borscht Belt yes it does feel a little bit melancholy here and there but there's so much life that is still breathing and teaming through the walls and seeing the postcards and seeing what was there and what's there. Now it feels like you're on a scavenger hunt that's endless and uncovering a world that I didn't grow up with. Of course, I could admire it because it's nostalgic for a period of time you never lived. It's very corny to say it but it's true.

Alison Stewart: From Instagram, "Latin music played a big part of the Borscht Belt entertainment scene. My dad played with a few of the bands that went to Grossingers, the Concord, the Nevele, Tito Puente, Joe Cuba to name a few Chacha and Mambo King of the '50s and the '60s." We had so many great calls and so many great texts. I'm sorry we couldn't get to all of them. Before we wrap this segment, Marisa, what's the next marker you anticipate and where can people learn more about the Borscht Belt historical marker project?

Marisa Scheinfeld: Sure. We have four in the ground as we mentioned, and you can find them all on our website. Maytheborschtbewithyou.org. We're also on social media at Borschtbelthistoricalmarkers. Starting in Memorial Day of 2024, we are going to do the towns of [unintelligible 00:25:12] Lake South, Fallsburg, Hurley, Woodridge, and Bethel. We also have additional towns such as Loch Sheldrake, Ferndale, Parksville, Livingston Manor, Woodburn, as well as Ulster County on our list.

We have four in the ground. I think another five in fabrication. By next summer we'll have nine. Each dedication has a free public program, so we encourage people to come out take a ride up to the Catskills, and we're doing exhibits.

Alison Stewart: Marisa, I have to dive in.

Marisa Scheinfeld: [unintelligible 00:25:44] Everything.

Alison Stewart: We're going to run out of time. We're going to run out of time. Marisa Scheinfeld and Isaac Jeffreys of the Borscht Belt Historical Marker Project. Thank you.

Marisa Scheinfeld: Thank you.

Isaac Jeffreys: Thank you.

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