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Tiffany Hanssen: As summer winds down and we head into sweater weather, we have a few podcast suggestions for you. We've got a murder mystery set on a reality TV shoot, a miniseries on the Riot Grrrl feminist-- Sorry. Riot Grrrl feminist punk movement. I almost tried to call it a post-punk movement. There would be a lot of calls on that, Nick. A series Exploring the art of songwriting with Paul McCartney and much more.

Nick Quah joins us today to talk about his list of podcasts to listen to this fall. He's a podcast critic for Vulture and writes the 1.5x Speed newsletter. Nick, welcome back to All Of It.

Nick Quah: Good afternoon. I love sweater weather. Love it.

Tiffany Hanssen: [laughs] Thank you. Me too. Listeners, of course, we want to hear from you. I know you have a podcast recommendation. We want to hear it. Are they news-driven? Is it a pop culture podcast? Is it a talk show? Is it narrative-driven series? Is it true crime? We want to know.

You can call us, you can text us at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Nick, you talked with Alison earlier the summer about the current state of the podcast industry. It's been a few months. Let's just catch up. Where are we now?

Nick Quah: As the talking heads would say, it's the same as it ever was compared to the last time I talked to Alison about this. Just to briefly summarize, the first half of 2023 has been a little difficult for the podcast industry as a business. The air market was softening and because of just larger concerns and anxieties around an economic recession, which is still may or may not kind of happens, is my understanding.

A lot of ad spending was pulled back which caused a lot these speculative investments, primarily for Spotify, but also a lot of other radio companies. All of that resulted in an effect where there was a lot more job uncertainty and cutbacks in show creation and layoffs in a number of audio organizations across the media industry. It seems that things have settled down and stabilized a little bit.

I am beginning to hear some strokes of optimism again, but I think up until next year, it's still going to be pretty quiet, especially as the larger vicissitudes throughout the media industry continues to roil.

Tiffany Hanssen: What does that optimism look like in terms of-- Just we're going to see more things in production? What does that look like, that optimism?

Nick Quah: Precisely that. I think there's an interest in investing in more talent again and maybe producing more shows, but a lot of that-- It feels like the planning is all for next year and not this year. It's a gigantic jigsaw puzzle. On the one hand, some people would say there are too many podcasts. I would say that there's always a growing bucket of more listenership for a podcast.

Yet, the narrative around the business itself has been pretty pessimistic for the past six months. You have demand [laughs] and you have supply, but the business is still a big question mark.

Tiffany Hanssen: Nick and I are going to talk about some suggestions from his favorites for fall, but we absolutely want to hear from you, what podcast are you listening to right now that you absolutely want everyone else to listen to? If you're sitting at a dinner party and you're like, "Here's the podcast you have to listen to," we want to know what that is. You can call us, you can text us, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Nick, let's talk about Strike Fast Five. This is Jimmy-

Nick Quah: Strike Force Five, I think.

Tiffany Hanssen: Strike Force Five, yes, sorry. Strike Force Five, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, Jimmy Kimmel. Their shows, their late-night shows are all struck because of the ongoing writer's strike and actor strike. They've all banded together. What's this about? Is this them just seeking the spotlight again or--?

Nick Quah: It's basically that if you want to be uncharitable, but the way that I have thought about this, let's call it an artefact, because here we have the five late-night talk show hosts not having the show on and they've essentially created what I'm thinking of as a financial instrument to get a ton of money from a couple of sponsors and pass it down to their striking writers who obviously are not getting paid through the strike that is now, I think, entering its 20th week or something like that.

As a show-- [laughs] I don't have much of a warm feeling about it because I personally don't actually have a real relationship with late-night shows anyway. It's a category of linear television that has not been part of my diet for a long time, but it is still a diet for a lot of Americans and there remain a lot of fans of these five men especially put together.

They've essentially created a show where they hang out over Zoom and just talk, which might be interesting if you like them, might be not. However, there is a slight complication right now because one of the two Jimmys, Jimmy Fallon, recently was the subject of a Rolling Stone investigation which alleged and reported out not a particularly good workplace.

A lot of past and current staffers not very happy being on that show, which of course, the podcast does not regard or acknowledge at all.

Tiffany Hanssen: I wondered that, yes.

Nick Quah: That's why I've been thinking about it mostly as a financial instrument, more than a show or anything else.

Tiffany Hanssen: Right. It does strike me a little bit like-- What is the name of that podcast with Jason Bateman and--?

Nick Quah: SmartLess.

Tiffany Hanssen: That's it. Who is that? It's Jason Bateman--

Nick Quah: Which also came out of another [unintelligible 00:06:06]. Sean Hayes and Will Arnett.

Tiffany Hanssen: Thoughts?

Nick Quah: That is a very popular show, which again, I have-- I'm not a particular fan of any of two of them as I guess a podcast host. I do like Will Arnett and Sean and Jason as actors. That's actually a really interesting relationship between the two in the sense of SmartLess also came out during a time where a lot of writers and a lot of Hollywood was not making stuff. That was back early in the pandemic.

The major difference, of course, being that Strike Force Five probably isn't going to stick around after the strike resolves. It's guaranteed for 12 weeks, but we don't know how much more beyond that. I imagine if and when the strike resolves and everybody goes back to work, I'm going to doubt that their respective networks are going to let them collaborate like this again.

Tiffany Hanssen: Nora from Brooklyn mentioned Opera Box Score. She said it's her favorite. Do you know anything about that?

Nick Quah: Not me personally, but the thing about podcasting is that it's a very large and infinitely expansive universe. [chuckles]

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's hear from Angelique in Brooklyn while we're at it. Angelique, welcome to All Of It.

Angelique: Hi. Thank you. Long-time listener, first-time caller.

Tiffany Hanssen: Excellent. Glad you're here.

Angelique: I recommended Crime Analyst, which is hosted by Laura Richards. She was trained by the FBI but worked at Scotland Yard with a prevention homicide unit. She has a really informative podcast where she breaks down murders like Gabby Petito, the Murdaugh Murders, what happened with the Menendez Brothers being wrongfully convicted for first-degree murder rather than manslaughter, things like that, and victim advocacy.

It's so informative and it's so vital for people to listen to because you don't realize how common domestic abuse and inter-partner terrorism is happening until you learn more about it, and she does a great job of laying it out.

Tiffany Hanssen: Tell us the title again, Angelique.

Angelique: Crime Analyst.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. Nick, have you heard of that one?

Nick Quah: I've seen a blurb on my feed a couple of times. True crime is a very vibrant [crosstalk].

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes. I was going to ask you. True crime seems to be just hotter than ever.

Nick Quah: Yes, across all formats, I would say. It's every third slot on my Netflix, or Peacock or [unintelligible 00:08:36] feed. It's not just a flavor. It's a way of being, I think, true crime.

Tiffany Hanssen: Right. Let's talk about fiction, not nonfiction. This is not true crime. Murder on Sex Island.

Nick Quah: Still a crime.

Tiffany Hanssen: [laughs] It's still a crime. Tell us about it.

Nick Quah: Murder on Sex Island is a little independent show started by this comedian, actually based in New York. His name is Jo Firestone. If folks have ever gone to Punderdome 3000 down in Brooklyn, it's a live show that happens every week, I believe. She co-created that. She also co-hosts a live comedy show in Littlefield these days.

Jo Firestone, she was unemployed before the strike at some point. Then, she decides to take a writing class and indulge in her love of murder mysteries to write her own murder mystery. Murder on Sex Island as the title suggests is a murder mystery set on a reality TV show that's not unlike Love Island.

It's a really fun, frothy, very smart in a like, so dumb it's smart, but also dumb but very, very smart again, cyclical turn in that style of humor in writing. I think if you love either of the two things, murder mystery or reality television, you're really going to love this. It's directly my Venn diagram. Jo Firestone is a wonderful comedian.

Tiffany Hanssen: She has written this. Is there going to be a book on it or?

Nick Quah: Actually, yes. She wrote this as a book that nobody picked up, no publishers picked up. So, she's self-publishing it. I believe it just came out this week. She had a book party, but the way she thought about is that, "Yes, I'll try to promote this as a podcast as well." This podcast is essentially a red-lot version of the book. However, she did tell me when I interviewed her for a piece that she kind of feels that maybe she sabotaged herself in giving the book out for free, so people maybe won't buy the actual book. So, if you like the podcast, you should probably try to buy the book.

Tiffany Hanssen: Probably try to find that book. All right, we've got some texts here. The Wild with Chris Morgan is the best wildlife podcast, one of the very best science and environment podcasts out there. The second season of The Moth's Grown about the in-between time between childhood and adulthood, storytelling and conversation. Coming back for a second season in October. My Broadway-obsessed daughter listening to the local podcast by Marc Tumminelli called LITTLE ME: Growing Up Broadway. Then my favorite podcast is History Teachers Talking, two high school teachers talking about a range of historical incidences and topics. Have you heard of-- any of those pop out at you, Nick?

Nick Quah: Yes. I heard about the first two in particular, and Grown, which is an offshoot of The Moth, as I believe the text described. It's a lovely show. It's essentially The Moth, but with featuring sort of people in that in-between stage between being a kid and an adult. So, the collections of story are quite lovely.

Tiffany Hanssen: That's The Moth's Grown all about the in-between time between childhood and adulthood. So, let's go back to nonfiction. We talked about this, History Teachers Talking. What do you think makes a great historical podcast? Just a couple of history teachers talking [laughs]?

Nick Quah: I mean, right now, when history is very contested in American culture, it's, I think, a very rich and vibrant space. I always thought that history is such a good match for podcasting as a genre and a medium because a really good storyteller of history, like an orator or an oral history, like a person telling a story, it helps sink in certain themes and feelings and larger emotional ideas about who we are as people within larger scopes of history.

That is a lot more impactful, I believe, than reading a very good, dense history book. No matter how good the history book is, you want to feel history a little bit. I think podcasts are a pretty good sort of vessel to do that. There's a lot of really famous history podcasts that [crosstalk].

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, talk to us about the one on your list, Starting a Riot.

Nick Quah: So, this one, it's a cultural history, almost, right? So, Starting a Riot, that comes out of Oregon Public Broadcasting. They partnered with a media collective called She Shreds Media. It's hosted by a Mexican-American musical artist named Fabi Reyna, who is largely influenced by the Riot Grrrl Movement, which came out in the early '90s in the Pacific Northwest. It's both a feminist and punk musical movement, but because it's sort of a product of its geography and its time, it's a largely white musical movement even as it pushed forward the boundaries.

So, Reyna is essentially entering this history asking a very, very simple but provocative question that feels eternal. Like, "Where is my place in a revolution? How does a revolution sort of cater or does not cater to a wide variety of identities within its specific context and time?" Histories like this, which is not quite-- it's kind of a re-analysis or re-examination of a movement, stuff like this is really important. Even though it's a very brisk, very sort of lovingly produced piece, it packs such a big punch.

Tiffany Hanssen: The topic of it is-- let's give the name again. The name is-- it's from Oregon Public Broadcasting. It's called Starting a Riot. We're talking about the history of the Riot Grrrl Movement.

Nick Quah: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: If you have a podcast that you think everyone should listen to, please call us, text us, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Rachel in Naples, Florida has a suggestion. Hi, Rachel.

Rachel: Hello. Hi.

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes. Your podcast.

Rachel: It's Beautiful/Anonymous by Chris Gethard. It's a great podcast. It's anonymous call from a person all throughout actually the world. It's a story about them. They talk about anything. It can laugh, cry, make you mad, inspired, any feeling around the entire earth. I mean, it's just so awesome. They've been going for seven-plus years and every time I listen to it, I feel great to have learned something new or have experienced something different.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. It's called Beautiful/Anonymous.

Nick Quah: It's a great show. It's a very good show.

Tiffany Hanssen: So, it's like a confessional?

Nick Quah: Sort of. It's hosted by the community and Chris Gethard. Essentially, the premise of it is that an anonymous caller calls in, he commits to spending an hour just to talking to this person. Within the confines, that very simple structural confines, a lot of things can happen, a lot of conversation. The conversation can go into a lot of places. It's a very simple idea that is-- I can't believe he's been doing it for seven years already. I can't believe it's been that old [laughs].

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's talk about another one, that is the talk interview type format that's on your list. Talk Easy with Sam. I'm going to butcher this, Sam-

Nick Quah: Fragoso.

Tiffany Hanssen: -Fragoso. Okay. Tell us about it.

Nick Quah: I personally love interview shows, and I think long-form interviews--

Tiffany Hanssen: That's good, considering you're on one.

Nick Quah: Absolutely. I also believe that long-form interview shows, long-form interviewing is one of the hardest things to do very well. Sam, who's based out of LA, he's been doing this for a couple of years. For whatever reason, I've been gravitating to it this year. First of all, it's a very well-researched show. It really comes out from his questions and the way that he frames certain questions that for every guest he probably does like hours and hours and hours of just sitting down and thinking through and consuming.

He has a very quiet tone to him. He has a very loving style. He's a little too quiet maybe, but for whatever reason he's able to draw out such interesting biographical interviews. I think that's essentially what he seems to be interested in, is creating a sense of biography of people. More recently, I think two episodes that I really liked was one with the labor activist Alex O'Keefe and he brought him on to mostly talk about the Hollywood strikes, but it goes on into a deeper kind of biography of O'Keefe.

Tiffany Hanssen: Are his interview subjects all over the map?

Nick Quah: Yes. I think it started out more Hollywoody. There's just a lot more actors, a lot more musicians and things like that. He's been overlapping with more writers, more authors, more politicians. Beto O'Rourke went on the show a couple of weeks ago. I just have such a hunger for very long interviews and Sam delivers.

Tiffany Hanssen: We have some other history fans, The Empire podcast. Two amazing passionate British historians talking through empires from the British-India Company forward. That came in, and also History of Rock and Roll Music in 500 Songs. Have you heard that one?

Nick Quah: Yes, it's a real enterprise. 500 songs.

Tiffany Hanssen: That's pretty big.

Nick Quah: It's a very good show and music heads would love it, if they aren't already listening.

Tiffany Hanssen: Quickly tell us about Blowback.

Nick Quah: Speaking of history, it's another narrative history podcast. If folks are familiar at all with Chapo Trap House, the leftist, very popular show. It's hosted by two guys who are of or adjacent to that world. What is interesting to me about it, other than the fact that they have a new season out right now about the war in Afghanistan, is that, man, these are very dense, deeply researched through a very leftist Howard Zinn style reading of the American empire.

Audio documentaries that are very, just gives you the whole scope of history of American imperialism and the many places in which the American military has intervened and the political systems that they intervened as well. I would say that anybody who loves deep, very dense history stuff, pick it up, you're not going to be unsatisfied with how deep they go into some of these threads.

Tiffany Hanssen: Talking Sopranos with Michael Imperioli, the show that won't go anywhere. The Sopranos. Still popular, people love it.

Nick Quah: It goes in and out of style. I don't think it's ever gone out of style. The Sopranos is always popular, I think.

Tiffany Hanssen: Do you think that there is a danger when podcasts go-- we talked about one that was on for seven seasons. Is there a danger when some podcasts go on too long that, "Maybe, we've got to wrap it up."?

Nick Quah: That question can be applicable to-

Tiffany Hanssen: Pretty much anything.

Nick Quah: -late-night talk shows, radio programs. I think longevity is a wonderful thing, if it can be achieved.

Tiffany Hanssen: We mentioned this podcast with Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, Jimmy Kimmel, called Strike Force Five. I got it right this time. Strike Force Five is actually on the docket to talk about next hour as well. Hopefully, our listeners will stick around for that. We're going to talk with NPR's-

Nick Quah: Consider this a preamble, then.

Tiffany Hanssen: -TV critic, Eric Deggans will be joining us to talk about all that strike business, but right now, Nick, thanks so much for all the podcast recommendations today. If you had to leave us with just one, like, "Go tonight, listen to this," what is it?

Nick Quah: Murder on Sex Island. It's so fun. It's very easy to pick up. Go for it. Everybody loves murders. I love murder mystery.

[laughter]

Tiffany Hanssen: To be clear, it's fiction.

Nick Quah: Yes, it's fiction as far as we know.

Tiffany Hanssen: It's fiction. A true crime? Let's just give both. True crime? If everybody loves murders, on the true crime side, we're going to listen to tonight?

Nick Quah: Actually, I'm listening to the third season of a true crime show called Suspect. I'll just leave it at that. Just Google it-

Tiffany Hanssen: It's called Suspect

Nick Quah: -because I'm running out of time

Tiffany Hanssen: It's called Suspect. Nick Quah has been here with us talking about the list of podcasts to get you through this fall and into the winter. Nick, of course, a critic for Vulture, he writes the 1.5x Speed Newsletter. Nick, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.

Nick Quah: Such a pleasure.

 

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