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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming or on demand, I'm really grateful you're here today. On the show, we'll talk about the new documentary Neither Confirm Nor Deny, which recounts a 1970s CIA operation to retrieve a sunken Soviet nuclear submarine. We'll speak with critic and podcast host, Jesse David Fox about comedians and truth. Maybe you read that New Yorker story about Hasan Minhaj we'll discuss that. We'll hear some music from bassist and composer Todd Sickafoose, who joins me to preview his new album Bear Proof that's the plan so let's get this started with Aparna Nancherla.

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Writer and comic Aparna Nancherla started her Comedy Central standup special like this.

Aparna Nancherla: But no, I suffer from depression. It's a great way to start off a set. Sorry to go blue right away but it’s true. No, I've had it my whole life and it's like a lot of times, I'll feel sad for no reason, but then I'll remember some of the reasons. I’m like, “This actually makes a lot of sense. This adds up.”

Alison Stewart: Aparna has been very open about her mental health on stage. In her new collection of memoir essays titled Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome, she writes a lot about her life growing up a self-described queen of quiets outside of DC, her pursuit of thinness that landed her in the hospital, some gnarly dental surgery, that she never used a bathroom at school and the big choice that pervades the narrative, choosing a career where she gets judged, and often by people who don't look like her.

Still, she carved out a successful career as a writer on late night shows and as an actor. We can't talk about either so that we honor the strike, but we can talk about her book that a Kirkus review called, I practiced this one, “Refreshingly perspicacious and darkly funny.” Aparna joins us now. Hi, Aparna.

Aparna Nancherla: Hi, how's it going?

Alison Stewart: It's going well. Thanks for being with us. In your first chapter of your book, you help us understand how you came to the title armed with your bachelor's degree in psychology, you conducted your own informal poll about impostor syndrome. What did you want to know? What did you find out that interested you?

Aparna Nancherla: Yes, I think I wanted to write a book about my self-doubt, because it was something I was struggling with acutely at the time when the idea emerged. I had gotten more success in comedy and was getting more opportunities. I think, for me, as an artist, accomplishing your dream makes you think, "Okay, now everything will be figured out, I'll finally have gotten to the end of the road." For me, it just opened up more doubts and insecurities. I think I was like, "Well, if you have so much to say, why don't you write something?" I made my self-doubt write a book.

Alison Stewart: When was the first time you really felt that sense of imposter syndrome?

Aparna Nancherla: I felt it pretty much my whole life. I don't think I had the label for it as imposter syndrome early on, but just feeling like I didn't fit in or I was maybe-- I was a good student in school, but I didn't feel like I was as passionate about learning as some of my peers seemed to be. Yes, I always have felt a little bit out of step with everyone else. I think that can also lead to feeling like maybe other people aren't seeing the real you and whatever is happening on the outside is not in line with what's happening on the inside.

Alison Stewart: When you feel impostor syndrome knocking at the door, how do you combat it? What do you do?

Aparna Nancherla: I think in writing the book, I realized that it's a part of me but it's not all of me. I think before maybe I had trouble making that distinction but it's like a voice that wants to protect you in a way that's similar to anxiety. It wants to help it just wants to make sure you're not maybe getting in over your head. Now I realize it's like maybe just a little misguided and not always accurate as to what's actually happening. I think keeping that in mind can help it a little but it also likes to run its mouth quite frequently.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Aparna Nancherla. The name of the book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome. Listeners, we'd like to invite you into this conversation. Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome? What was the circumstance? How did you get through it? The National Institute of Health defines impostor syndrome as a behavior or health phenomenon described as self-doubt of intellect skills or accomplishments among high achieving individuals. Does this sound like you or someone you know? Give us a call, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on the air, or you can text to us at that number, or you can always hit us up on social media @AllOfItWNYC. We also want to say maybe you're just a fan of Aparna's I want to ask her a question about writing her book 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC.

Aparna I found an interview you did with Tig Notaro from December 2021 and you asked Tig’s advice on writing your first book. I'm guessing it's this one because you said you've been working on it for a while. When did you start writing this book?

Aparna Nancherla: I started this book in the spring of 2019 and then I didn't turn it in until I believe the final version December 2022. It took about three and a half years.

Alison Stewart: Tig’s advice for you was to show up. He said you have to show up and that you also need to know what to leave out so that you don't be a rambler kind of. Was that advice helpful? How so if so?

Aparna Nancherla: I'm someone who loves a run on sentence and I love to just get everything on the page. I think going back and editing out what didn't have to be there was important. It was good advice in that way, but then I also think for me, leaving stuff out in terms of personal staff or vulnerable staff, I think, yes, it was important for me to just get it all on the page first and then edit later. But I do think, yes, the inner me would love to just never be edited and be one long sentence.

Alison Stewart: Where did you write? Were you someone who jotted down notes on cocktail napkins, Notes app? Did you make a specific time to write?

Aparna Nancherla: I wish I had a strict process but I'm a chaotic creator in that every day looks a little different, but it's also a little bit of a Groundhog Day of like, "Okay, how am I going to battle my procrastination today?" I tried writing centers, I wrote at home, I wrote at all hours of the day and sometimes writing would mean just sitting down at my computer or getting out a few paragraphs or pages and then I’m falling asleep and being like, "I think I deserve a nap now. I showed up and now I can take a break."

Alison Stewart: My guest is Aparna Nancherla. The name of her book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome. We're inviting you into this conversation and Armando from Little Silver New Jersey has called in. Hi, Armando. How are you?

Armando: Hey, how's it going? Longtime, first time. I deal with impostor syndrome every day at work. I'm currently a paramedic student. I sit in the back of an ambulance with two wildly qualified professionals who are out here pulling people back from the brink and I look at myself and I'm like, "I'm not as good as these guys," but I fall back on my training. I fall back to what I learned in school, the time that I've spent working in this career. That's really the only way that I found that I'm able to overcome how difficult it is to basically be an imposter. It feels like a stranger in a strange land.

Alison Stewart: Well, don't you have to cut yourself a little slack. You are still a student, right?

Aparna Nancherla: Yes.

Armando: I sit for my boards in a couple of weeks, so I'm not as much of a student as I'd like to be anymore.

Alison Stewart: Fingers crossed. By the sound of your call and the way you described it and your passion for it, I'm sure you're really good at what you do.

Aparna Nancherla: I know, I'm like if you showed up for my ambulance, whatever happened to me, I would feel like I was in capable hands.

Alison Stewart: There you go, Armando. Remember that next time you feel like you have imposter syndrome. Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We are riffing off the title of Aparna Nancherla's book. Have you ever experienced impostor syndrome? What was the circumstance? How did you get through it? The National Institute of Health defines the imposter syndrome as a behavioral health phenomenon described as self-doubt of intellect skills or accomplishments among high achieving individuals. If this sounds like you are someone you know, please join our conversation. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC you can call in or you can text that number. Social media is available as well @AllOfItWNYC.

Aparna I want to play another bit from one of your comedy specials because you're so honest about your mental health. There are some really serious themes in this book as well, but it's also really funny. Let's play this clip from your special and we can talk about on the other side.

Aparna Nancherla: And if you don't have anxiety, the way I would describe it is like there's an edgy improv group in your brain-

[laughter]

-and it just needs a one-word suggestion to spin countless scenarios that no one's comfortable with.

[laughter]

The whole time you're just like, "When will this show be over? I just came to be supportive."

Alison Stewart: So funny. Does the humor about these topics, like anxiety and depression, does it come organically? Is it easy to find the humor in it?

Aparna Nancherla: I started writing about anxiety and depression in my act because I was similar to this book about imposter syndrome, struggling with them pretty acutely in my life at the time. I think writing about them just gave me a little space or at least some compartmentalization of being like, "Well, okay, at least I can reframe it or look at it in a more creative way." When I started talking about it on stage, I didn't really even think about whether it would land with people. It was just by virtue of the fact I hadn't really written about anything else lately.

Yes, the way it resonated with people I think forced me to be a little outside my head for once and be like, "Oh, wait, other people are maybe having this exact same experience and I'm just too lost in my head to realize that." In that sense, it helped me a little bit just connect outside of my own experience of it.

Alison Stewart: What have you learned from others in the comedy community who have also worked in the space? I know you're a big admirer of Maria Bamford. Marc Maron has done this quite a bit.

Aparna Nancherla: Yes. I looked up to them and I think they were talking about it far before I was. I think I didn't know what I necessarily had to add to the conversation, but I think people like them have made it clear that your experience is important just by virtue of the fact it's yours. No matter who is saying the words, someone you might never expect would connect with them. For me, that's been really humbling and fulfilling to just get an email from someone that's like, "Hey, I listened to you talk about these things and it really helped me make sense of my own, or really helped me in a dark time." That feels very gratifying and unbelievable that you can reach people in that way.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Aparna Nancherla, the name of her book is, Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome. We're inviting you into this conversation. We've gotten a text that says, "Imposter syndrome has been clobbering me, trying to apply for exciting jobs after a 10-year absence. I power through though and the interview is next Friday.” Four crossed fingers emojis, so our fingers are crossed for you as well. Let's talk to Donna from South Orange, New Jersey. Hi Donna, thanks for calling in.

Donna: Hi. Hello?

Alison Stewart: Hi. Yes, you're on air.

Donna: Hi.

Alison Stewart: Yes, hi.

Donna: Hi. I am on my third career right now, but in my second career, I was a physical therapist. After my training, I really felt like I didn't know anything. My supervisor at my first job told me to just act as if, and eventually, over time I gained I guess the confidence from my experience to feel like I was no longer pretending to be something, and I had a very successful career.

Now I'm an artist and again, experiencing the same feeling of, I'm faking it and nobody's noticing yet, but again, I get lots of positive feedback, but I totally identify with that feeling of, I'm not really good enough to be what I say I am. It was a long time before I would even call myself an artist. Other people called me that before I did so yes.

Alison Stewart: Donna, thank you for calling in. Did you have a fake it until you make it moment Aparna?

Aparna Nancherla: Yes. I think a lot of show business is faking it until you make it. There's often a long road before you get that first big break. Yes, I think it's funny too to be in a career where you might actually be acting in something and so you're faking it on two levels where you're like, "I'm pretending to be someone, but I'm also pretending to be someone pretending to be someone." You really got to be careful sometimes how deep it goes.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Tanya calling in from Queens. Hi Tanya. Thank you for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Tanya: Hi Alison, how are you? This topic, I feel it, I definitely feel it.

Alison Stewart: How so? Tell us.

Tanya: Yes. I am a very recent podcaster and like also the person who text in, I took that long break career-wise and I ended up being the host of this history show, a New York City history show and it was intimidating. I'm not a local New York resident. I'm a transplant and I do not have an Emmy in history, so it was really cool because I'm curious, but I definitely sometimes would be like, "Oh gosh, oh gosh, I have to remember that date. Oh gosh, I’m speaking to such and such at the Museum of XYZ." But yes, you just got to trust and get over it and get on with it, and like Aparna said, fake it till you make it I guess.

Alison Stewart: Tanya, thank you so much for calling in. Listeners, we want to hear your stories of when you felt like you had imposter syndrome. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Our guest is Aparna Nancherla. The name of her book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome. We'll have more with Aparna after the break. Maybe she'll read a little bit from her book. This is All Of It.

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This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Aparna Nancherla. Her new book is called Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome. Aparna, you have a gig tonight in Vermont I believe, right?

Aparna Nancherla: Yes, in Burlington, yes.

Alison Stewart: In your book, you write about how sometimes your anxiety surges before you go on stage, and you write about having to find workarounds when you're on the road doing standup. What kind of things have helped you get through this pre-show anxiety?

Aparna Nancherla: Yes. A lot of it is just making sure I'm taking care of my body, whether that's staying hydrated, exercising, just something to get me more in my body and not out of my head. I've started doing this thing called tapping, which is an acupressure type of therapy, but yes, just doing that before a set, you just go through your nervous thoughts and then try to replace them with maybe more grounded thoughts while you're just tapping different parts of your body. I found that really helpful. It's kind of an ongoing buffet of picking and choosing the ways to manage it in the immediateness of it.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Jonathan from Long Island who's been holding. Hi Jonathan, thank you for calling and thank you for holding.

Jonathan: Thank you very much for having me. I am a relatively recent-- well, I graduated with an MSW in social work not that long ago. I was in film and television, production. I'm in my 20s and 30s. I'm in my late 30s. My father is a therapist of relatively well renown and I constantly feel imposter syndrome. I think a lot of it has to do with feeling as if I need to fill his shoes. It's a tremendous burden to try to fill them, but when I do feel imposter syndrome, the thing that helps me is when I see success with my clients as I build my caseload. There's really no more affirmation that you can ask for than seeing people heal in front of you. Instead of being afraid of trying to fill big shoes I should think of the I think Isaac Newton quote, "I see far because I stand on the shoulders of giants."

Alison Stewart: Thank you Jonathan. That was so thoughtful. Really appreciate you calling in. We have a text. “As one of the first women to go to a federal academy, I didn't show up with it, imposter syndrome, but fought the loud voices telling me I didn't belong. It wasn't until we all got out into the real world that we realized we weren't imposters. It can be forced upon you. A 1985 grad of the United States Merchant Marine Academy." Huh? My dad was one of the first Black graduates of the United States Merchant Marine Academy. Interesting. Aparna, I was hoping you could read a little bit from your book.

Aparna Nancherla: Sure. This is from the chapter on anxiety appropriately. I'm talking about the origins of it and how I first experienced it as a kid. "Swallowing pills, lighting a match, lighting the stove, fireworks, the car wash, catching a ball, any self-maneuvering done on wheels, ghosts, big- -dogs, small dogs with agendas, anger, thunderstorms, mean kids, kids I don't know, grownup strangers, strangers who I strongly suspect are mad at me, authority figures, authority figures who are definitely mad at me, drugs, the dark. That's a short list of the fears I had as a kid. My nerves were like the weather, constant and unpredictable. Unlike the weather, they were not the go-to subject for small talk with people I didn't know well. See above, strangers.

I viewed the world as a deceptively benevolent setup with hidden minefields I somehow needed to avoid, but lucky me, I wasn't allowed to play video games, so it's subversive. I even went for that analogy. My family had neither a Nintendo nor Nickelodeon, so if my '90s nostalgia references are sadly lacking, put it on my therapy tab. My parents ran a sheltered ship. No, not homeschooling. This isn't that kind of book, but their list of first generation immigrant rules limited most ways children learn about the wider world. No sleepovers, no trashy books, anything with a suggestive or offensive cover font or unapproved TV shows, no dating, no coed, anything really, and no chewing gum, clearly a gateway to an anarchy.

While Bob, my older sibling and the firstborn child, diligently looked for loopholes whenever they could, the primary message I soberly imbibed was the world is a dangerous and unsafe place, proceed at your own risk. Or even better, sit tight and proceed with caution when you're 27 if you make it that far. Good student that I was, my fearfulness was always taking notes, the main one being, “Please help me.”

Alison Stewart: That's Aparna Nancherla reading from her book, Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Impostor Syndrome. As we heard there, you write a bit about your parents. After graduating from Amherst College, you set out on this career to be a writer, to be a comic. What were the conversations with your parents like?

Aparna Nancherla: My mom early on was really worried I was too shy a kid and too introverted, so she was always trying to push me out of my shell. I think when I went fully in this direction of a more front-face thing public career, she was delighted in that it was so unexpected. I think she thought it was a phase because I've always been someone who cycles through different interests and always seeking my next passion. I don't think she thought it would stick as long as it did. When I first moved to Los Angeles for the first attempt to really be in a bigger pond and try to make a career of it, yes, my parents were worried but they were ultimately like, "If this is what you want then we support you."

Alison Stewart: I want to go back to that text we got about the first woman to go to a federal academy. Is it true, I don't know, the internet, that you really thought about going to West Point?

Aparna Nancherla: It is. As I said, I was very much a seeker and looking for whatever that thing would be that would help me figure myself out. For a while, I was convinced that was the military. I just thought the way maybe someone with self-doubt or imposter syndrome doesn't feel like they're on the same page as other people and don't really fit in. I would watch the military ads and I'd be like, "Well, this is great. They tell you how to dress, they tell you what to say, they tell you how to cut your hair. They figure it out all for you and then hopefully you'll catch up at some point."

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Alistair calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Alistair, thank you for calling in.

Alistair: Hi. Thanks for having me, Alison. A long time listener, first time caller, and it's good to have you back.

Alison Stewart: Thank you.

Alistair: I have a great imposter syndrome story. I'm a lawyer. When you go to law school, they don't really teach you anything about the law. I'm handling a case in litigation and I'm at court, and what they don't tell you is, every court has its own rules and every judge within that court has its own rules, procedural, whatnot. I go to my first case, my partner just throws me in and says, "Handle it." I'm armed with my briefcase with nothing in it and a suit and I have no idea what I'm doing. There's a calendar call where they call the cases that they're going to hear for the day, and I was like 13th or 14th on the list.

Again, I have no idea what I'm doing but I'm just watching what the first 13 people ahead of me do. They all stand up, they say their name, they say they're representing the plaintiff or the defendant, then they said second calendar call. When my case got called, I stood up, I said my name, I said I represent the defendant and second calendar call. I had no idea what that meant but I just did it. Then when the second calendar call came, the 13 cases in front of me had all been resolved. The first case on the second calendar call was mine, so I had no one to mimic.

When they called my case, I stood up, I said my name, I said I represent the defendant. Then I asked the court, "Do you have a third calendar call?" Then everyone, all like 300 attorneys in the room started laughing. The attorney in front of me turned around and said, "Fresh meat. We have fresh meat here." That was my imposter syndrome story. I wish someone had told me there's no third calendar call or something, or what even a calendar call was, but I just faked it until I made it.

Alison Stewart: They wanted some entertainment on your behalf, Alistair. Let's talk to Robert calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Robert, thank you for joining our conversation.

Robert: Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. I actually grew up in India and came to US at a very young age. I was undocumented for many years. Worked as a photography assistant to some of the top photographers. I eventually started my own business, had almost 20 employees with zero education in photography or business. I was successful, failed, but I always had that imposter syndrome. I never applied to my dream job at National Geographic because I always thought I was never good enough.

Then when clients and other photographers and people that I respect, they admired my work, I just never really believed it. Always felt like I don't deserve it. That undeserving feeling was always there, because I always felt like if somebody will ever ask me, "Where did you go to school for photography?" I wouldn't know what to say. I know my work speaks for it. On my good days, I do feel good about it but yes, that's my--

Alison Stewart: Well, feel good about your success, Robert. Thank you so much for being so candid and calling in. My guest is Aparna Nancherla. The name of the book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Impostor Syndrome. Okay, so the name of your book brings me to a question in the news today. It's Unreliable Narrator. There's been a lot of talk about honesty and comedy going on given the recent revelations that Hasan Minhaj made up some big parts of his biography, especially around racism and he created events that didn't happen. We're actually going to talk about it in depth next hour. How do you think about accuracy and the accounting of events when you present your comedy, Aparna?

Aparna Nancherla: I think all comedians embellish a little just for the sake of storytelling but I think for me, I do have an inner rule follower who just cannot-- I have to fact-check myself. If something happens I can only exaggerate it so much, but I'm not the type of comedian where if something happens to someone else, I will then say it happened to me because it doesn't feel right in my bones. I'm just that student who couldn't color outside the lines.

Alison Stewart: Do you think in certain standup situations exaggeration's okay?

Aparna Nancherla: Sometimes when comedians tell stories, it's like if you slightly alter a line that the other person said or where you were standing or the order of events, it just makes the jokes hit harder. I think every comedian I know is happy to do that in service of the laughs.

Alison Stewart: When you're writing about yourself like in this book, these are your stories and these are true stories?

Aparna Nancherla: Yes. I feel like in this book it felt like I could only go off of what had happened to me in terms of mining what feelings it brought up. It felt like I had to be pretty honest and stick to what happened.

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Impostor Syndrome. My guest has been Aparna Nancherla. Aparna, thank you so much for being with us and taking listener calls.

Aparna Nancherla: Thank you for having me. This has been so nice.

 

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