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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. As you know, we love books here at All Of It, all kinds and this is Band Book Week. I wanted to remind you that we've spoken to several authors whose books have been challenged, including Alex Gino, author of the commonly banned book, Melissa, about a young transgirl in elementary school.

We had Walter Mosley on the show yesterday. He had a few things to say about his book that was banned. You can check out our series on band books that we did earlier this year at wnyc.org/allofit. For readers, we have tomorrow on our show author Jonathan Lethem, about his new book, Brooklyn Crime Story. That's all in the way, but what's happening right now, Merrily We Roll Along.

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Alison Stewart: The revival of Merrily We Roll Along is breaking house sales records at the Hudson Theater and was the only fully sold-out Broadway show last week. This is a far cry from its 1981 run that was poorly reviewed and closed after two weeks. Much of the credit for the success 40 years later goes to my next guest, Maria Friedman. She knows the show in a way that few people do. The plot, based on a 1934 play follows three creative friends and the choices they make over 20 years that impact their happiness and their bond.

Maria was close to the show's composed of the late Stephen Sondheim, and she starred as Mary in a London production of the musical. That role is now played by Tony Ward winner, Lindsay Mendez, whose Mary is a once celebrated novelist turned theater critic, turned alcoholic, who has always been in love with Frank, played by Tony nominee, Jonathan Groff. Frank is an earnest composer who sells out to make movies and money, much to the chagrin of his friend and creative [unintelligible 00:01:52] I tightly wound Wordsmith Charlie. He's played by Daniel Radcliffe.

The show begins in the '70s showing these characters at a low point in their friendship, and then we head backwards in time all the way to the '50s to see how it all began and we learn how it all unraveled. Merrily We Roll Along is running now at the Hudson Theater through March 24th. Opening night is Tuesday, but before that, we're joined by director Maria Friedman in studio. Hi, Maria.

Maria Friedman: Hello.

Alison Stewart: What were you working on just in the days and weeks before Merrily came your way?

Maria Friedman: Oh my goodness, what was I doing before that? I was in a film in London. It's a BFI short film where I was playing the mother of four children. They were now young adults, 35-year-olds, who none of whom had had children. It's a fantastic new film. It comes out in November, and I'm also an actress so I was playing the lead in that.

Alison Stewart: That's so exciting. We get to see you in a film.

Maria Friedman: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Love that.

Maria Friedman: Its called The Doll's House.

Alison Stewart: What made you decide you wanted to direct this particular production?

Maria Friedman: As I said before, I've been mainly a performer and singer and actress in my life. I spent many, many years on the stage and TV, and I got the opportunity of working in a drama school. I've always loved teaching. Whatever I've been doing whether I'm at the national theater, whatever, I will find my way to young people to try and just pass on some of the stuff that I've been lucky enough to learn over the years. I was asked to direct something at a drama school in which is called Central School of Speech and Drama, which my sister, Sonia Friedman went to study stage management.

She's now an incredibly famous producer of Harry Potter and everything. Anyway, I got hold of the idea of Merrily We Roll Along from my husband who had also been in it, I'd been in it. He said, do something for the first go round, and I worked with these amazing young people. What I learned from putting the show on is it spans 20 years of these people's lives, so you stay with them through their life, and it goes backwards.

We start with them in their mid-40s where some of them have had-- one has become an alcoholic, the other one is a double divorcee. They're surrounded by famous rich people, lawyers. When you're playing that as a 19-year-old, which was the original idea for the casting, you ask the audience to come with you in a lie, because it looks like it's kids playing dress up. I was really fortunate that I found the key to this piece by working with young people. Not that they weren't absolutely brilliant, I just only started believing them in act two when they start to be in their twenties downwards.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Maria Friedman: I was gifted that information, and then when I casted, I cast it with people who are older, who have had a life, who do know what it's like to make mistakes. Once you get past the age of about 25, I think we all know that we're starting to make some things which define us over our lives. This piece is just full of a loving forgiveness for the mistakes we make.

Alison Stewart: The whole idea, I've been thinking about the title a lot Merrily We Roll Along. You made a decision today and then Merrily We Roll Along and that could have been the decision that could change everything.

Maria Friedman: That's absolutely beautifully put. That's absolutely right and we make these decisions, and then cause and consequence. I think our beautiful piece says it's okay. It's okay, you can reset. A little bit of introspection, a little bit of minding about each other. The wonderful thing about our piece that I speak to quite a few people, obviously about it recently, and they all say they go and pick up a phone and phone the friend that they haven't spoken to that they wish they had. Or write an email, or just reconnect with somebody that they're very close with, maybe living with. Just remind yourself of the very, very important things in life, which are, for me, the human connections and being mindful of one another always.

Alison Stewart: What has this show taught you about friendship?

Maria Friedman: Just that, actually. That we are never going to get everything right in life. It's just not possible, but to be kinder to oneself when you have made a mistake and also take your part of the problem. If you take a little bit of it-- Like our characters are not great at listening to one another. They're all talking at each other and they think they're communicating, but actually, they're going on-- They're all in their own lanes

It's only when they start to listen to one another or we start to listen to one another. I think it's one of the great sicknesses of the world is a lack of empathy, which I think comes from a lack of listening, and not hearing but listening. Listening's a different thing. It's actually an active thing. I feel that if one could imagine really feel what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes, you don't have to want to be in them, you don't even have to agree with it, but you understand, and therefore, you can-- It's not tolerating something. The empathy thing is a step deeper than that. I think our piece, I hope, reminds us that it's quite important to listen hard and to feel what somebody else might be wanting to say. You don't have to agree with it, but at least go that extra mile to hear it.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Maria Friedman. She's the director of Merrily We Roll Along running at the Hudson Theater. I want to talk a little bit about staging. It's this cool, modern-style home, and it's really fun because the orchestra is up high, and it looks like they're almost like in the second floor of the house.

Maria Friedman: Brilliant. It's meant to be his recording studio, which is great, and in there is this fantastic band.

Alison Stewart: Why did you want to have them be so present?

Maria Friedman: Actually, often we make decisions as directors because we have to be pragmatic, and the pit did not fit. I wanted to bring the house forward, which means we're going past that point where you could have everyone in the pit. Also, I started as a musician. My family are musicians. I relish and celebrate musicians, and it's a musical. I want the sound to be acoustic. It comes from that space. We can choose when we see them. When we don't, we bring in beautiful blinds down and up. They are part of our process and part of our experience. I think it's thrilling having that acoustic sound. Big brassy, big band sound is thrilling, and I want us to share it, see it

Alison Stewart: When the show was at New York Theater Workshop, I saw it there and I saw it last weekend. New York Theater Workshop is such an intimate space and so cozy, which really worked well with the story about friendship and bonds. What were your conversations like with your actors to retain that intimacy in a big house?

Maria Friedman: You ask really good questions. I didn't want them to change a thing because ideas fly, they fly. We have a huge space called the [unintelligible 00:09:32] I suppose Carnegie Hall. Ideas fly. If you have them and they're in really deeply rooted, you can be very, very quiet about things. I think probably the thing I'm almost most proud of is that I think it's still is really intimate in a big space. I think you come into someone's home and you feel like you're in their living room. It's not projected out. It feels very detailed and real.

One of the things I love about it, it's we've all been watching box sets during the pandemic and everything. It's this episode. We're watching episodes of people's lives. It's left on a little cliffhanger, and then we then we watch the next one, and the next one. It's like a binge on a box set, I think, and a whodunit, because we start to get the clues as to why they made these decisions and why they ended up. The collective audible sound of the audience going, "Huh," all together as one. When a thousand people do that over and over and over again in the theatre, I think it's thrilling, and it is because the ideas are all in place that they're very, very detailed, very fleet with their characterizations. They're beautiful. I'm so proud of them.

Alison Stewart: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I was watching the show, I realized your leads basically wear the same clothing through the whole show. The Frank character basically has black pants and a white shirt, and Mary is basically in browns, and Charlie has some Argyle or sweater set, all through the time as it passes.

Maria Friedman: Yes. Frank is the only one who actually is very well observed. Again, well done. I don't know about you, but I know that part of me still feels 20, and I'm always quite surprised when I look in the mirror, slightly disappointed I have to say. The idea about that is that we don't need to age with funny hairdos or things. What's changing is the internal workings of a human being. Whether one's had-- I always think of them as untrodden snow in the very first scene. They haven't had their boot print, no boot print yet. Then as life takes you and throws you about a bit, you gain some strength, you gain some sadness, you become richer and richer and richer.

The characters go through 20 years, and only-- because it's through Frank's eyes, the whole play is through Frank's eyes. Frank does not change his clothes, but his memory of Charlie and Mary, are etch like if you think of your best friend when you first met your best friend, that's how they stay, right? In his mind, Mary and Charlie change the least. The people who are peripheral in his life can have these very big changes, but they are-- What he loves about them is their souls and their hearts, so what they wear is not interesting to his memory.

Alison Stewart: Your three leads have been really open about how much in love they are with the show and how much they really like each other. Eid you do chemistry tests or did you just get particularly lucky?

Maria Friedman: No, I have done the show in London. It was very successful as well. I like very much. I spend time with them chatting about stuff, not necessarily the work, and very quickly, you understand what sort of soul is in front of you. I promise you, those three will be friends for life. I absolutely guarantee it. There's a deep sweetness to each one of them in real life, not off the stage. They are sensational human beings. I adore them and they love each other.

Alison Stewart: I was going to say, sometimes with an actor that really shines in a role, it's not just their performance, it's something about them that marries with the performance. What is it that-- I'm going to ask you about each one, what is it that Jonathan Groff brings to Frank?

Maria Friedman: Jonathan is a man whose enthusiasm and optimism for life is palpable. I have yet to hear him say a single unkind thing about anybody, and I've known him now for way over a year and a half, where we've been intimately working with people. Normally, this is a point where something makes you cross nothing. He's a private man, he cycles everywhere, he loves his family, he has friends from childhood. I'm lucky enough to call myself one of them now and I'm going to hang on a dear life to that. He taught me, he reminded me that it was all right to be really, really excited and open and non-cyclical. We stood on the street and screamed out loud when we cast one of the people and they said yes. He is a wildly kind, brilliant man, by the way. He's not in any way like, [unintelligible 00:15:03]-- he's precise and accurate and smart, but he's kind. That's Jonathan.

Alison Stewart: That was important, because sometimes Frank in the past has not been likable.

Maria Friedman: It's vital. The piece cannot work with an unlikable Frank, because he makes a lot of mistakes. The thing is, I don't blame him because, in the very first scene, he gathers these two slightly more fragile human beings and says, "Look at this world." Sputnik is going across the sky, the universe is in front of them, and suddenly, he has this epiphany of, "You know what, we can do anything. We can do anything we dreamed of. We're three healthy, smart, young people, let's do it."

They come on that journey with him. Without that kind of life force, Mary would never have written a book, Charlie would never have a Pulitzer Prize-winning play. They come on the journey with him, and then they turn and go, "Can you be a bit more like me? Would you do it my way?" He's not guilty. What you have to have is a man-- there's a line in the show which goes, "My biggest mistake was saying yes when I should have said no." He doesn't have a sense of what he really needs, so he gets lost. He gets lost in the world. You have to love him for that, not judge him.

Alison Stewart: What is Lindsay [crosstalk]?

Maria Friedman: Lindsay is a full-blooded woman who's fierce and funny and loyal and gifted, and she's a no-nonsense person. You know what you get with her. She's ready to work at all times. She's a family person. She's got a beautiful daughter and a beautiful fiancé. She's a great company member. I absolutely adore her. We've had great conversations about what it is to be a woman in this industry. The different battles and fights that we've had to have to get where she's got to. She's had to go against the wind sometimes. She's done it and she remains full of grace and humility as well as a real palpable sense of herself. She's really something.

Alison Stewart: What essence of Daniel Radcliffe do we see in Charlie?

Maria Friedman: He is Charlie, he's my Charlie. He's a smart, sensitive, both fragile and strong. For a man to have been as famous as long as he is-- I call it the Dan effect. He's understood something about the world that I will never know. I've never had that and never will have the pressures that he lives with. He knows he's-- he calls it he won the lottery, and the way he treats his fans is sublime. Whatever's happening in his life at the end of the show, he will go out, he will be there for them, he makes sure he understands that relationship, but what he is, is an artist.

I promise you, he is one of the finest actors you will ever see on a stage. He always has to get past, I was Harry Potter, and then here comes the genius, this little gifted genius that is Daniel Radcliffe that we will watch over the years making courageous choices and being sensational in everything he does. He always is the man who says thank you. We froze the show yesterday. He was the first person down into the auditorium to say, "Thank you, Maria. Thank you for what you've given me." I'm like, "No, Dan, you've given it to me." We're both saying, "No, you gave it to me." He understands how much it matters to people that he is who he is. I love him. I love him.

Alison Stewart: You froze the show yesterday.That means it's locked.

Maria Friedman: It's locked. It's locked.

Alison Stewart: That's it.

Maria Friedman: That's it.

Alison Stewart: We had Lindsay and Dan on the show last year to talk about the New York Theatre Workshop Production, and this was interesting. This was Daniel's-- This is what he had to say about the relationship between Franklin, Frank who we talked about, and his friends and as how he sees it in the production.

Daniel Radcliffe: Frank just wants to make movies, like it's not a crime. I think it's much less a story about one guy doing something wrong and people in his life berating him for it. It's just like people going in different directions. No one is wrong in this story. Everybody just wants each other, but also wants different things at the same time, which I think makes it so painful.

Alison Stewart: It's such an interesting-- It's a common conversation in the arts, arts versus commerce. If you decide that you want to make money, does that mean you've sold out as an artist?

Maria Friedman: Yes. When you were giving the summation of the thing, and you said, Frank sells out, he doesn't sell out. It's one take on the play. He says something. He said, "What is wrong with having two out of two musicals hit?" We don't want to sit in the barracks, do we? With nobody in the audience. Was what Stephenson Neal dreamt of. This show being the hit it is, is what he made it for.

He made it so it was full. He made it so it made money. He wanted everyone to have a job. You can't eat unless people are coming. I don't see it selling out. I think there's a point where early on he goes, "If I didn't have music, I'd die." I think there is a death in Frank because commerce does take over, and there's moments in the play where he finds the piano again and he's alone and he makes music.

You see that it's a different part of his soul that is left hurting and a little bit empty. I have to say, as a performer, I'm a singer and I know that when I sing, I feel so well. It does. I think everybody should sing. I think you should all join choirs and the world should be. I think without music, he is hurting himself. The world would love his music. I don't think he's sold out. I really don't.

Alison Stewart: Does Charlie, though?

Maria Friedman: It's a very interesting question. Charlie has the privilege of, if we look at all the clues we have in the piece, Charlie has a family. He has a mom and a dad. He comes from a good background. He has people to babysit his four children. Frank clearly has no parents.

Alison Stewart: Interesting.

Maria Friedman: We hear no parents. He joined the army, not at a place where he had to. He's looking for family. He finds his family in Mary and Charlie. I think he has the luxury of having integrity. It's a luxury to be able to say, "I'm going to sit and write in my garret because you can still eat and your children are still fed." Frank does not have that luxury. I think that's something that a lot of people who have that kind of cushion, lucky him.

Equally, I do feel that once they separate as friends and that Charlie writes this Pulitzer Prize-winning play that he's been going on about for 15 years, "I started a play. I am going to write it if Frank doesn't come to work with me." He writes the play, but he wouldn't have had the connections that gave him the Pulitzer Prize-winning play if he hadn't met Frank and had two hits because the doors were opened.

The opening doors gave him the access to all the people who'd put his play on. If he'd never met Frank, he would still probably have that little book written and not made. Frank ignites all their lives, Mary, to writing in the beautiful Opening Doors piece, which actually goes over two years that piece. I think it's one of the greatest pieces of musical theater ever written, Opening Doors, where we watch these three writers, Halcyon Days, working through the night with all their hopes and aspiration. Nobody's shut the door yet. At that point, every time Mary calls him and she's got another job, whether she's working for--

Alison Stewart: All these magazines.

Maria Friedman: All these different magazines. Every time he says, "What about the book? Have you started on the book?" She goes, "Yes, no, whatever." He's always saying, "What about the book, Mary"? He believes in them. He says to Charlie, "Your writing is incredible, words and music and everything. We can make a difference." He ignites everybody. Once they're ignited, they start to take that for granted.

Alison Stewart: Interesting.

Maria Friedman: I think that Charlie with his success is probably at home missing Frank.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing Merrily We Roll Along with its director, Maria Friedman. It's running at the Hudson Theater. The ensemble is really important. We've been talking about the primary character, but the ensemble is really important. I thought so. It's so interesting how they break the fourth wall. They stare at the audience and talk to the audience as they bring us along in the changing of time. Why that choice to have them completely make eye contact?

Maria Friedman: Isn't it gorgeous?

Alison Stewart: It's wild.

Maria Friedman: It is wild. I think, first of all, I want everyone to come along on the journey, recognize-- I hope I'm right. In fact, I know I'm right because a lot of people say they've never watched a show where they are also part of it, that they feel they're part of Mary, part of Charlie, part of the story. I think the breaking of the fourth wall and asking the questions, how did you get to be here?

All you listeners out there and you, how many times in your life you've been in a situation where you go, "How on earth did I get to be here?" Sometimes it's great, and sometimes it's not. You think, "Is that my script? Is that really how it ends? Why did I make?" They're asking these questions, not in a judging way, not like, "What did you do wrong?" It's just very lightly just reminding the audience they are part of this story so we come along with them.

Plus the fact, anybody who hasn't seen the show yet and does come to see it, Stephenson Neal and George Furth, write the pieces, "Always, you are part of the experience." You are part of the cast. You have to listen hard and really engage with what's being asked of you, particularly in this show, because when you do, lots of clues are set. Lots of Easter eggs are thrown into every single scene. If you are listening hard, you'll pick them up, because we go backwards. We suddenly you'll hear a clue and you'll suddenly go, "Oh, my goodness, I saw that in that." Or "I heard that in that in the scene before." You start to collect them.

The ensemble, who, by the way, are all individual. They all stand out individually. By the time they take their curtain calls, we know them all. They're not a Greek chorus or a faceless voice. Each one of them has a different character that they bring throughout the whole piece. They play multiple roles in all the scenes. They are so brilliant. It's absolutely right. They are-- I call them palate cleanses as well between the episodes. We have an episode, and then we start spooling back in time, and they let you know where we are.

They say the dates and they will tell you that we are going back three years or two years, or five years. When we arrive at the next scene, unlike most shows where you are watching the narrative and you are following it in a linear way, we're doing the opposite. We keep jump-cutting. As we go further and further back, of course, our characters become happier and happier and happier until they're these glorious, young, hopeful people. For the audience, I think it's both uplifting and emotionally very rich.

Alison Stewart: Very funny. The person sitting next to me. [unintelligible 00:28:05] and said, "Honey, they're going backwards." [laughter] I just had to share that story with you. Before I let you go, I had mentioned that you were close with Mr. Sondheim.

Maria Friedman: Did I record with him?

Alison Stewart: No, I had mentioned that you were close with him.

Maria Friedman: Yes, absolutely 40 years of friendship. He's this godfather of my son. He was mentoring my other son in his writing. We were doing this together. We were bringing this over together. It is a deeply bittersweet thing for me not to have him standing by my side, because those of you who know the history of this piece, it caused him a lot of, I mean, really serious grief.

He wanted this one to come back. He'd seen it in London, loved it, wanted this here. Anyway, his friends, his husband, his all-- I mean, I was in the back of the stalls yesterday with half a dozen of his old friends just in tears saying he would've been very, very happy to see full houses of people laugh. It's funny. It's a very funny show. I think people leave the theater full of ideas, uplifted, and I hope they all go home, pick up the phone, or give the person they love the biggest hug.

Alison Stewart: Merrily We Roll Along is running at the Hudson Theater through March 24th. I've been speaking with its director, Maria Friedman. Maria, thank you for coming to the studio. This was a pleasure.

Maria Friedman: Thank you so much for actually really wonderful questions that made me think. Thank you.

 

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