[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, I'm grateful you're here. On today's show, Ram Charan joins us. He's one of the stars of the film, RRR. We'll hear my conversation with Marlon James, his novel Black Leopard Red Wolf was our February get lit book Club pick, and he joined us at the New York Public Library to discuss and take questions from readers. We'll also get to hear some of the performance from musical guest, Tiger Paw. That is the plan today. Let's get this started with De La Soul.

[music]

Mirror, mirror on the wall.

Tell me mirror, what is wrong?

Can it be my De La Clothes

Or is it just my De La Soul?

What I do ain't make-believe

People say I sit and try

But when it comes to being De La

It's just me myself and I (Say it now).

Alison Stewart: This was the weekend that music fans had been waiting for. The Hip hop Trio. De La Soul's full catalog was finally released on streaming platforms and we could sit back and enjoy this.

[music]

It's just me myself and I

(Ooh-ooh-ooh, oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh)

(Say it now)

Now you tease my Plug One style

And my Plug One spectacles

You say Plug One and Two are hippies

No, we're not, that's pure plug bull

Always pushing that we formed an image

Alison Stewart: Me, Myself, and I is from De La Soul's 1989 debut album, Three Feet High in Rising. Yes, 34 years after the Long Island Group wowed us all. The music is available after decades of legal issues surrounding the group's catalog and sample clearances. It's reported the work to clear all the group samples, required hundreds of different contacts. The release also comes as a somber moment in De La Soul's history as one of its members, David Jolicoeur, AKA Trugoy the Dove, passed away last month at the age of 54. He'd been struggling with congestive heart failure for some time.

Member Vincent Mason, AKA Maseo, was recently quoted in the New York Times, speaking about Dave's death, saying, "We fought so hard and so long for it, for him not to be here. It's awkward. It hurts." As the group and fans alike, grieve, they also have a chance to celebrate the art Trugoy helped make happen and De La's contributions to the history of hip hop, and also bring in a new generation of listeners.

With me in studio to help give us a rundown of some De La soul history and take your calls and of course, we'll all listen to some music is journalist Marcus J. Moore. He's the author of The Butterfly Effect, how Kendrick Lamar ignited the Soul of Black America, and is now in the process of writing a cultural biography about De La Soul. Thanks for coming to the studio, Marcus.

Marcus J. Moore: Thanks for having me. I appreciate you.

Alison Stewart: Listeners did you spend the weekend listening to De La Soul? What's your favorite song? What's your favorite album and why? Our phone lines are wide open. 212-433 WNYC. That is 212-433-9692. Or you can reach out on social media @allofitwync. Were you a fan of De La Soul in the late '80s and early '90s when they were coming up? Maybe you knew them from Long Island. That's possible, Solomon concert, we want to hear your De La stories. 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692. Or maybe you want to weigh in on what you think the legacy of De La Soul has been on hip-hop 212-433-9692. 212-433 WNYC. Social media is @allofitwnyc.

Marcus, while we wait for phone calls to come in, De La Soul's music is streaming now after all these legal complications. What was at the heart of the issue on why these earlier albums of De La Soul just weren't allowed to be streamed?

Marcus J. Moore: When De La Soul was making their music in the late '80s and up through the mid-'90s, sampling was still relatively new, especially when 3 Feet High and Rising came out, and when De La Soul [unintelligible 00:04:00] came out. We all knew that producers would sample but there was a lot of handshake deals. No one knew really who to reach out to for this sample or who to reach out to, to clear this thing or what have you. A lot of times, producers would just make these beats and say, "Okay, well, I'm just going to do it and we'll see what happens. We'll clear it the best way we can."

They did that and then famously in 1989, they got sued by this '60s rock band called The Turtles for a short clip that they included on one of their songs, Transmitting Live From Mars on 3 Feet High and Rising. They go through this legal trouble, which turned out to be the biggest case of all time. Because at the time, De La was the biggest group in the world, the biggest rap group in the world. They were almost made an example out of.

All that to say they did so much sampling on their music and their beats are such a patchwork collage of Michael Jackson meets Hall & Oates, meets Smokey Robinson, that for the longest time, no one knew who was going to be responsible for paying for all those uncleared samples. As a result, Tommy didn't want to foot the bill. De La didn't think they should foot the bill, and so the music just sat on the shelf for a generation.

Alison Stewart: Ty and the Record company. For people, so they understand what we're talking about, let's play a little bit of Me, Myself, and I.

[music]

Then here's the 1979 Funkadelic tune, Not Just Knee-deep.

[music]

Alison Stewart: What was it about that time that no one said, "Hey, wait a minute, maybe we need to stop and think about clearances. Was it just that it was such a nascent and new form?

Marcus J. Moore: That's what it was. It was a nascent and new form, and hip-hop wasn't seen as this viable genre that was going to be around for a long time. We're talking in the mid-'80s, late-'80s, there was a large segment of the musical population that thought that hip-hop was just a fad. They're like, "Okay, well that's cute or whatever, you can go ahead and sample our music. It's not going to go anywhere." It wasn't until these rappers started making some serious money that they said, "Well, oh, hold on now, that 14-second clip that you put on that song, I'm going to need 2004 or whatever. "

Once they saw the hip hop could be a cash cow, so to speak, that's when all of a sudden people started going back and they started re-listening to all their music to see like, "Okay, is that me on that? Or those my drums or what have you."

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call, Julia calling in from Green Point. Hey, Julia, thanks for calling All of It.

Julia: Hey. Oh my gosh. I thought my mind was blown because this was the weekend that I finally found the album that I had listened to every night with my roommates before we went out back in 2004 at Pratt. I couldn't find it and I thought it was my bad memory, and couldn't find it anywhere, couldn't remember it. Then there it was on title finally, Buhloone Mindstate, and I was like, the world made sense again and maybe it wasn't a coincidence.

You're saying now these things are available to stream more. Because I looked for years and so I finally sent even a screenshot to my old roommate who we haven't spoken in decades. Like, "This was the album, maybe it wasn't driving you crazy, but it was certainly driving me crazy," and just to have it and put it on, someone had the cd so it was like, started with intro. I wasn't going to remember that first song. It was Intro. It was so exciting, just put it on a go all the way through, and feel those feels of midnight at Pratt about to go out. We used to just go out at midnight and stay out all night, and it was such a feel.

Alison Stewart: Julia, thank you so much for calling in. I think a lot of people didn't realize, like Julia, she had been looking for it and looking for it. Do you know what was the genesis of trying to get this music on streaming? When the real effort started?

Marcus J. Moore: From my understanding, the real effort started around 2019 because there were some false starts, to be honest. Buhloone Mindstate showed up at the time of-- Well, in 2018 rather, I was working at Band camp and Buhloone Mindstate just shows up on the Tommy Boy page. It's like, "Oh, okay, well, everything all is right in the world. Here comes Buhloone Mindstate, here comes 3 Feet High." Come to find out that the deal wasn't done yet and Tommy jumped the gun on that.

It was around 2019, I believe, where there was actually a public push for De La and their famous friends to call out the old label and say, "Hey, let these guys collect their coin or whatever." It's been a long process because they had to try to go back and clear all of those samples. It's here now and it took about, what, three years for it.

Alison Stewart: They were founded in Amityville Long Island when the members were in high school. How'd they meet? How'd they form? How did De La Soul form?

Marcus J. Moore: They were high school classmates. They were at Amityville and Dave is a year older than both of them. Maseo is originally from Brooklyn. He was DJing Brooklyn even at age of 15. He already was in the music business, so to speak, and at the time, he also knew Paul because he and Prince Paul were working on another project that didn't end up going anywhere. At the same time at the school, you have Pos and you have Trugoy, who were in this other rap group that also didn't go anywhere. They took a liking to each other because they had similar styles. They were both unconventional [unintelligible 00:10:24] pocket in different ways.

They form a group and they needed a DJ. They're like, "Here's this guy, Vincent Mason, this guy named Maseo. Yes, let's form a group." They essentially just formed a group off of their love of everything. I think that's what makes De La great. When you think about hip-hop at the time, everybody was playing a character, so to speak. Everybody was larger than life, greatest lyricists of all time. They formed just these regular guys who like regular things but were extraordinary DJs and producers, and lyricists.

Alison Stewart: They were blerds. They were Black nerds before they were-- People called them blerds.

Marcus J. Moore: Exactly, and they made it cool. They made it okay to be like, "Yes, I love hip-hop, but hey, I also love jazz records and maybe I skateboard. They made it cool to be a well-rounded Black individual at that time.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Eddie from Los Angeles. Hey, Eddie, thanks for calling in.

Eddie: Hey, Alison, how are you doing? Thanks for this piece. It's very timely. I just want to tell the story about-- I was a music writer back in '95, and it was my first trip out from London to New York. I was living in London at the time. I met De La Soul because we were doing a cover story for a magazine called True, which went on to become Trace Magazine. I had met the guys. We were doing the shoot in Manhattan. Then we went out and we just hung out, kicked it for the day. They were just really cool. Like you said, it was very natural, very down to earth, very chill.

We just got on. I especially got on with Pos. Dave was cool. Mase was cool. Then back in London, a few months later, and they were about to perform at a spot in West London. I'm outside the spot. We're waiting. Everybody's gathering. There's this MTV out there [unintelligible 00:12:17] out and I'm standing by there, and I hear boom, boom, boom on the window and it rolls down, and it's De La Soul inside the back of the van just waiting to get in the place. They had remembered me from New York. They was like, "Yo, what's up? I was like, "Holy crap."

It was just a great moment and it just speaks to how cool they were. I still follow them on social media and then interact now and again. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Eddie, thanks for calling in with the story. If you have a De La story you want to share with us, 212-433-WNYC. Are you a fan of De La soul? Maybe you saw them in concert. Maybe you interacted with them like Eddie did. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or hit us up on social media at All Of It WNYC. Maybe you want to share what you think the legacy of De La Soul is. My guest is Marcus J. Moore, the journalist. We're talking about the release of De La Soul's full catalog on streaming. It just happened this past Friday.

I'm going to ask you, and it's a little bit hard to ask what each member brought to the group. What was Pos' role?

Marcus J. Moore: Ooh, that's a good question. I'm going to cheat a little bit because I'm a jazz head, right? Anytime I hear Pos, I hear a jazz vocalist or I'll hear like a jazz instrumentalist. I say that because he knows how to ride a beat a different way. He finds these different pockets within the beat, where he's still on beat, but it's still off-centered a little bit. He's also bringing these very complex lyrics that, quite honestly, you're not really going to understand until maybe 10, 20 years later. He's that kind of guy.

I feel like Trugoy, he was-- They said it so accurately when Dave passed, where he was the heartbeat of it. He was the laid-back, cool guy where I feel like he held the group together and his style was more so heartfelt. It was more straightforward, but he also spoke in code a little bit too. I think that's what tied those two together where it's just this lattice of inside jokes and iconoclastic language, and things like that.

Mase, I love Mase because Mase is like a hardcore Brooklyn dude. He's like an old-school DJ. I think he brings that, for the lack of a better term, street sensibility to the group. I feel like he centers the band in that way. Where you have Pos and Dave, who are, like you said, they're Blerds, and they're proud of it. Then you have Mase who will center them. Bring them back down to Earth a little bit.

Alison Stewart: I want to play the song, The Magic Number from 3 Feet High and Rising because I love the song because it feels like it's about their friendship and their collaboration. Let's listen to The Magic Number from De La Soul.

[music]

Three

That's the magic number

Yes, it is

It's the magic number

Somewhere in this hip-hop soul community

Was born three: Mase, Dave, and me

And that's the magic number.

Difficult preaching is Posdnuos' pleasure

Pleasure and preaching starts in the heart

Something that stimulates the music in the measure

Measure in the music, raised in three parts

Casually see but don't do like the Soul

'Cause seeing and doing are actions for monkeys

Doing hip hop hustle, no rock and roll

Unless your name's Brewster, cause Brewster's a Punk (three)

Parents let go 'cause there's magic in the air

Criticizing rap shows you're out of order

Stop look and listen to the phrase Fred Astaires

And don't get offended while Mase do-si-do's your daughter

A tri-camera rolls since our music's now set

Fly rhymes are stored on a D. A.I.S.Y. production

It stands for "Da Inner Sound, Y'all" and y'all can bet

That the action's not a trick, but sure enough a function.

Everybody wants to be a DJ

Everybody wants to be an Em Cee

But being speakers are the best

Alison Stewart: Marcus, what were they doing that was different? What were they doing that was unique at this moment?

Marcus J. Moore: They made it cool to be regular, for the lack of a better term. Like I was just saying not too long ago, they provided this counterbalance in hip-hop whereas-- Don't get me wrong. People like LL, Rakim, Public Enemy, KRS-One, Boogie Down Productions, all of that is great. I love that music, but it's for a little bit, they're playing this character. Do you know what I mean? It's like they're these larger than life characters, whereas De La, they came with such a freedom that no one else was doing.

When you listen to The Magic Number, when you listen to 3 Feet High and Rising as an album, it just sounds like four guys in the studio having fun. It almost sounds like a demo tape in a way, but they were throwing out all the rules of hip-hop at the time. They brought this patchwork collage of music where this sample was layered on top of this sample. These drums sounded different. It almost resembled a funk record in that way, where I feel like they brought improv to a certain extent to hip-hop. They also brought comedy.

They even say it on the album, "Take this off, take that off. Take off all this veneer and just be yourself." I think that's what they taught listeners is just, "Hey, it's cool being you. You can be yourself, and it's totally fine."

Alison Stewart: We're talking about De La Soul's full catalog being available for streaming. Just happened this past Friday. My guest is Marcus J. Moore. Marcus put together a little playlist for us. We'll listen to some of those tracks after the break and take more of your calls. If you want to weigh in on this conversation, the number is 212-433-9692. This is All Of It.

[music]

You are listening to All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. In studio with me is Marcus J. Moore, the music journalist. We are talking about the release of De La Soul's full catalog on streaming. It happened this past Friday, and we're taking your calls. Let's talk to Oren from Brooklyn. Hi, Oren, thanks for calling in.

Oren: Hi, how are you?

Alison Stewart: Doing great.

Oren: Good. Well, I was just listening and I was just reflecting on when I first heard De La Soul. I was 13 in junior high school in Los Angeles, and it was huge. I still have some of these songs in my head. They just come out of me, and we were just doing graffiti. We were dancing to this music, making dances. Right now, when you're talking about how De La Soul just being regular, I think it's interesting because I was 13 years old and I was dancing, which was a little different. It wasn't so tough. I wasn't breakdancing. We weren't battling, but we were, I don't know. It was a special time.

Now that I have kids and I'm 46, and I think about what they're listening to, I just think it's interesting to be an adult and still listen to this music, and be 13 and be really into it. Do you know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: Yes, I do. Thanks for calling in. Do you know what? I want to talk to Chris, who's calling from Berlin, who has an interesting point of view and wants to put something out there. Hey, Chris, thanks for calling in.

Chris: Hey, thank you. I actually also wasn't breakdancing, although I tried, back in the '80s. For sure, I think De La Soul was a huge inspiration, and I really respect them a lot. I know that one of their earliest samples from 3 Feet High and Rising was from Bobby Durough's Schoolhouse Rock. I knew Bobby pretty much all of my life, and I know that this really caused him a lot of pain and anguish. You know the Three Is a Magic Number song from Schoolhouse Rock, that they sampled and he, for years, I think tried to fight them and to get some kind of restitution for this.

At the same time, I'm torn because obviously the texture of this time and of the music that people were making, it was such a creative time to take samples and inspiration from the world around and the music that was being made, but it was not like that in the beginning. It was a lot of people getting their music ripped off. I just wonder if anyone's mentioned that specifically about this album and if there's been any restitution or any kind of a place where musicians could go? Bobby's passed away now, but this is--

Alison Stewart: Well, I think that was-- Chris, I'm going to dive in.

Chris: This is an important point still.

Alison Stewart: Yes. I'm going to dive in because I think that was part of the idea of having to go back and spend three years finding out who the samples were, and what the financial solution was going to be. Am I right on that?

Marcus J. Moore: Yes, that's part of it. No, excuse me, that's actually exactly what they had to do. I think what happened with De La is that they sampled so much that it was almost impossible to comb back through and catch everything. Even when you listen to the updated version of the records that just came out on streaming this past weekend, you'll hear differences. You'll hear, like on the OG version, you'll hear a certain sample, but then on this one, you don't hear it at all.

To answer your question, I don't know if that speaks directly to the restitution, but I know for a fact that they went back to try to clear everything, and stuff that they couldn't clear, they either got it redone or they just took it off altogether.

Alison Stewart: On your list, Marcus, you have for us the song I Am I Be. Why did you choose this one for us to listen to?

Marcus J. Moore: Well, okay, I'm going to tap into teenage Marcus a little bit. He has this line on there where he's talking about the breakup of the Native Tongues, the Native Tongues collective. For those who don't know, it was De La, Queen Latifah, Monie Love, Tribe Called Quest, and, Jungle Brothers, and Black Sheep. At the time, there was a rift going on between someone from Jungle Brothers, someone from Tribe, and Pos. There was this rift going on and he brings it up in the song in a way that shocked people because from the outside looking in, we all thought everything was cool and then we come to find out on this track that it's not.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to I Am I Be from De La Soul.

[music]

I am Posdnous

I be the new generation of slaves

Here to make papes to buy a record exec' rakes

The pile of revenue I create

But I guess I don't get a cut 'cause my rent's a month late

Product of a North Carolina cat

Who scratched the back of a pretty woman named Hattie

Who departed life just a little too soon

And didn't see me grab the Plug Tune fame

As we go a little somethin' like this

Look ma, no protection

Now I got a daughter named Ayana Monet

And I can play the cowboy to rustle in the dough

So the scenery is healthy where her eyes lay

I am an early bird but the feathers are black

So the apples that I catch are usually all worms

But it's a must to decipher one's queen

From a worm who plays groupie and spread around the bad germ

I cherish the twilight

I maximize, my soul is the right size

I watch for the power to run out on the moon

(And that'll be sometime soon)

Alison Stewart: That's I am I Be De La Soul, Bob has tweeted to us. De La Soul's 3 Feet High and Rising was a big part of New York City's soundtrack in the summer of '89. Let's talk to Paul, calling in from Brazil. Hi, Paul, thanks for calling in.

Paul Brown: Hi, good morning. Yes, it's my pleasure to listen to your radio show.

Alison Stewart: Wonderful.

Paul Brown: Hello?

Alison Stewart: Yes, you're on the air go for it.

Paul Brown: All right. My name is Paul Brown, Paul Brown, B-A-U, the caller, I'm a radio personality in Brazil. De La Soul came to perform in São Paulo, Brazil in 1999, along with Jungle Brothers and [unintelligible 00:24:37] some Brazilian groups. Hello?

Alison Stewart: Yes, I think our connection is not the best. Let me see if I can read what the-- De La Soul in 1989 and it was amazing. This fellow, Paul, who's a radio personality. Thank you so much for calling in. I'm sorry our connection wasn't better. You wanted to get to Stakes Is High, Marcus. Why did you want to get to Stakes Is High?

Marcus J. Moore: Well, because it was a make or break record for De La because at the time that this comes out, it's 1996, hip-hop is totally different from what they entered into in 1988, 1989. This is the first record without Prince Paul as a producer and so it was all on them, honestly. It was just like, "Okay, well, this is a make or break, we're going to do all the beats ourselves."

Also, they discovered this young kid from Detroit who goes on to beat this iconic producer named James Yancey aka J Dilla, who produces the title track. He was already a bubbling name, but then after this, it was just like, "Yo, okay, who's Dilla?" Then he was everywhere. I always go to this record because this reminds me of high school, personally. That's why I chose that.

Alison Stewart: This is Stakes Is High.

[music]

The instamatic focal point bringin' damage to your borough (Uh-huh)

Be some brothers from the East with the beats that be thorough

Got the solar gravitation, so I'm bound to pull it

I gets down like brothers are found duckin' from bullets (Word)

Gun control means usin' both hands in my land (Yeah)

Where it's all about the cautious livin' (Uh-huh)

Migratin' to a higher form of consequence

Compliments of strugglin' that shouldn't be notable

Man, every word I say should be a Hip-Hop Quotable

I'm sick of bitches shakin' asses

I'm sick of talkin' 'bout blunts, sick of Versace glasses

Sick of slang, sick of half-ass awards shows

Sick of name-brand clothes (Word)

Sick of R&B bitches over bullshit tracks (Heard)

Cocaine and crack, which brings sickness to blacks

Sick of swoll'-head rappers with they sickenin' raps

Clappers of gats, makin' the whole sick world collapse

The facts are gettin' sicker, even sicker, perhaps (Sicker, perhaps)

I Stickabush to make a bundle to escape this synapse

Alison Stewart: Marcus, one of the interesting things about this is like this is nostalgic for me and for a lot of folks, and even if some of the songs do sound different because the samples had to be rerecorded or whatever, it still feels like a moment in our lives, but for some listeners, this will be brand new. There'll be a whole new generation who get turned onto De La Soul. What do you hope younger music fans understand or listen for when they decide to dive into the De La catalog?

Marcus J. Moore: I hope when they dive into it, they hear the creative freedom. I hope they hear three/four guys who just wanted to make the music that they wanted to make, that you can classify as hip-hop but it was also funk, it was also soul, it was jazz, it was Japanese hip-hop, it was everything. I would want kids to listen to this and be like, "Okay, whatever crazy idea that I have, I now feel entitled or emboldened to do it." More than anything, that's what I hope kids get from this.

Alison Stewart: It's always tough to ask a writer this, when do you think your book will be out on De La Soul?

Marcus J. Moore: Hopefully, my publisher's not listening. Probably this time next year though actually, honestly. Because I have been working on it for about three years already, so it's pretty much close to the finish line right now.

Alison Stewart: Marcus J. Moore has been our guest, you listeners have been our guest as well as we celebrate the release of De La Soul's full catalog on streaming. Marcus, thanks for coming in and taking listeners' calls.

Marcus J. Moore: Thank you, I appreciate you.

Alison Stewart: Let's go out on Say No Go.

[music]

Now let's get right on down to the skit

A baby is brought into a world of pits

And if it could've talked that soon

In the delivery room

It would've asked the nurse for a hit

The reason for this?

The mother is a jerk

Excuse me, junkie

Which brought the work of the old

Into a new light, what a way

But this what a way has been a way of today

Anyway, push couldn't shove me to understand a path to a basehead

Consumer should've erased it in the first wave

'Cause second wave forms believers

And believers will walk to it then even talk to it and say

(You got the body, now you want my soul)

Nah, can't have none of that, tell 'em what to say, Mase

Banging on the floor, banging on the floor

 

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