[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart on the Mount Rushmore of ubiquitous advertising. You have your Dr. Zizmor, you have your Dan Smith Will Teach You Guitar, and then the personal injury lawyers whose billboard and catchy jingle made them stars.

[music]

Speaker: Cellino & Barnes, injury attorneys, 800-888-8888. Don't wait, call 8.

Alison Stewart: Ross Cellino and Steve Barnes started out in Buffalo in 1998 and created a huge multi-million dollar business with offices in New York and California. You could not escape them or their ads like this.

Speaker: If you're injured in an accident, choosing the right law firm is crucial. Don't wait, call 8. No matter what kind of accident, head on, rear end, or T-bone, the attorneys at Cellino & Barnes are ready to help 24/7. With their no fee promise, you don't pay unless they win. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Don't wait, call 8.

Alison Stewart: After 20 years together, the business imploded, the result of legal and illegal shenanigans plus some hurt feelings. In 2017, Cellino sued Barnes to dissolve the firm. As WNYC's Gothamist reported at the time, "Apparently Cellino and Barnes disagree on things like managing the business, employees’ compensation, which clients they take on, expansion, how to practice law and marketing. And Cellino was also apparently upset Barnes refused to let him hire his daughter, even though Barnes' girlfriend and brother both work at the firm.”

They fought each other from 2017 to 2020. Then they settled and went their separate ways, and unfortunately, shortly after, Steve Barnes died in a small plane crash in October 2020. The story of their meeting, their strange work friendship and public fight has been adapted into a somewhat truthful and often hilarious two-man show called Cellino v. Barnes. After an initial run in Brooklyn in 2019, the current incarnation of the show has been selling out at Chashama. I never know how to say that.

David: Chashama.

Alison Stewart: Chashama. Thank you. A performance space on West 23rd Street. It's in its final week, but who knows? There's been a big case of extensionitis for organic hit shows lately. Joining me now are the writers and actors Michael Breen, who plays Ross Cellino. Hi, Mike.

Mike: Hi.

Alison Stewart: And David, I'm going to get it, Rafailedes-

David: Nailed it. Hey, very good.

Alison Stewart: -who plays Steve Barnes. Hey. I've heard that Ross Cellino, in fact, came to the show and gave it a 10 out of 10 stars, so that's great.

David: Yes, a classic 10 out of 10 theater rating. We love that.

Mike: Yes. We love when things are rated out of 10 stars.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, if you ever had any reaction or with Cellino & Barnes, or feel free to share your encounter. Maybe they were your personal injury lawyers or maybe you've seen the show. Let us know what you think, or maybe you can tell us why you think that jingle is the earworm it is. Phone lines are open. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or hit us up on social media @AllOfItWNYC. Okay, so before the whole show, Mike, what were you doing before this show?

Mike: I was working at Major League Baseball in the commissioner's office and I had been there for like four or five years. When I left that job, this was the first thing I wanted to do. I actually went home to see my parents. This leads in perfectly. I went home to see my parents and it was right when Cellino and Barnes had broken up and everybody in Buffalo where I'm from was talking about it and they were obsessed with it, “Did you hear about Cellino and Barnes? Can you believe they're breaking up?”

I was like, “This is something I think.” Dave and I had just worked on another script together for the first time, I guess. We'd done improv together, but we were working on that script and it went well, and I said, “Hey, do you want to do this Cellino & Barnes thing with me?” and he said, “Yes.”

David: Yes, I think I sang the jingle back to him was my response, Cellino & Barnes.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: As one does.

David: Yes.

Alison Stewart: When you started researching the story and to work on the script, what about it said to you, “Good comedy?”

David: There were two larger than life individuals and as we read the news stories that were coming out, there were just so many rich details that naturally took us to comedy. I think we have a comedy background, so we are probably going to go that direction anyway. But yes, there was just some-- the way they talk, how petty some of the choices were, it just immediately we could see it heightening to a really comedic level.

Alison Stewart: Mike, did you know anything about the law before starting this and playing a lawyer?

Mike: Oh, no. I knew nothing and I so confidently went into it. I think we both did and then things had happened since then. Like my girlfriend then went to law school after we wrote the show and she was like, “A lot of this is a mess. You’ve got to clean some stuff up. These things make no sense.” I think they might make a little more sense now, which is all we can ask for.

Alison Stewart: What did you know about law and what have you learned about personal injury law?

David: I knew nothing. The close-- my father-in-law's a lawyer. That's about it. We would google law terms to write jokes about, “Tort, that's funny.” Then I guess I had the opinion that personal injury was kind of gross. They get called ambulance chasers. I was like, oh, I looked down on it but I think we over time came to respect what they're doing a lot. It's not always ambulance chasing. A lot of times, they're really fighting for people. We still make fun of the profession in the show, but I came to appreciate it a little bit more.

Alison Stewart: Mike, you can have a good idea, you can sit around, you can write it up. How did it go from being an idea to being an actual play?

Mike: I think the first thing is you pitch ideas and the one that you keep repeating to your friends is the one that you end up doing, I think, and the one that they attach to. It was also something that was just so simple to say. Sometimes you have ideas and it's really hard to explain them. This was a play about Cellino and Barnes and everybody was like, “That's funny.” I think that's what drove us to be like, “I think we might actually have something here.” We wrote it, asked a bunch of theaters if we could do it, everybody said no for six months, and then finally Union Hall let us do it once and then it snowballed from there.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Mike Breen, he plays Cellino, David Rafailedes, he plays Barnes in Cellino v. Barnes, a play at Chashama at 320 West 23rd Street. In your play, the real life Steve Barnes in real life is actually his bio. It's his bio so we always have to say that. It says he was a Marine Corps officer and a combat vet in the Gulf War, but when we meet your Barnes, he's just graduated from school. What brings him into the law firm of Cellino & Likoudis?

David: My understanding is he went to law school, then became a marine, and then came back, which is not a traditional path. I don't think. Usually once you go to law school, you become a lawyer. I think Cellino's dad and Likoudis have their own firm. I think it's one of the best firms in the city. He graduated from the University of Buffalo and he was looking to join the best firm. I think Barnes in particular has a lot of ambition, so I think he quickly rose up the ranks there.

Alison Stewart: Yes. He does something sort of shady right away, in my opinion, shady.

David: In the play.

Alison Stewart: In the play.

Mike: Yes.

Alison Stewart: In the play. He comes in, he takes some interview questions-

David: Yes.

Alison Stewart: -off the desk. Well, first of all, does he think he's shady? Does your version of Barnes think he's shady?

David: No, no, no. Barnes-- so yes. It starts with him in an interview with Ross Cellino but Barnes shows up 20 minutes early to steal the interview questions so that he can be prepared ahead of time. I think Barnes fully believes this is a game and this is a good way to play the game, any advantage helps me. He knows that it's not the right thing to do, but he also knows that being good at something is ultimately the goal so he's playing the game.

Alison Stewart: What does Ross Cellino want for himself before Steve Barnes shows up?

Mike: I think he views himself a certain way. He thinks he is cool, suave. He thinks he's a tech billionaire before they existed. He thinks he's an idea man. I think he wants to be seen that way more than anything. When that takes priority, the other things in your life can fade away, which is like, in our show at least, the substance of your job. I think when you have a vision for yourself, that can sometimes be more important than the work. That's something that scares the hell out of me. Sorry, am I allowed to say hell?

Alison Stewart: You can. That's not on my list.

[laughter]

Mike: It really scares me thinking about like, “Oh, how am I spending my time? Is it for attention or am I actually getting good at my craft?’ I think a lot of that poured through into the show and made me realize I might just be him.

Alison Stewart: What does Ross Cellino think about Barnes when he first meets him?

Mike: I think he's impressed by him. I think it is one of those simply odd couple things where he sees his shortcomings exist in this other man who at the time admires him and they can match really well. He finds his counterpart. I think to a degree, that's what actually happened too. I think that's why they really bonded.

Alison Stewart: What does Barnes think of Cellino, once he really gets a good face full of him?

David: I think Mike nailed it exactly. In the beginning it’s he sees a person who has the skills that he doesn't have. He's more personable, he's better with people, he's got big ideas. Cellino doesn't know how to execute on them and Barnes is a militant detail-oriented lawyer who- -knows that he can help build this. Towards the end, he reverses that opinion but I think it's more just to hurt Cellino than what he actually believes.

Alison Stewart: Yes, Dave, your Barnes, he’s--.

David: Yes, I'm the bald one.

Alison Stewart: Yes, the bald one. He's maybe a little more in love with the law than Cellino I would say.

[laughter]

David: Yes, that's 100%. He says, "I love the law."

Alison Stewart: How does he balance his love for the legal profession and his love of his ambition, his desire to get ahead?

David: Yes, I think he genuinely believes being a really great lawyer is going to get him ahead. All of the extra stuff, all of the billboards, all of the jingles, he likes it because it brings in more business, more law for him to do. He skates by without doing anything really unethical. We didn't find anything in our research that had him-- What?

Alison Stewart: Mike's like, “Well, I--”

Mike: I'm now defending my character. We talk about this thing that we will just call loan sharking in the show. Well, Cellino in real life does get in trouble for that.

David: He gets suspended.

Mike: He gets suspended but Barnes was part of that. For whatever reason, it was--

David: Barnes didn't get suspended so maybe he's just very good at the law.

Mike: Yes, that could be it. I don't know.

Alison Stewart: There's the tension.

Mike: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Every good story needs tension. Mike, Cellino's a bit of a nepo baby, works at his dad's firm and he's not that successful, yet he has a supreme confidence.

Mike: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: Where does this confidence come from?

Mike: I think it comes from-- A man like that who had a father who was successful when he was young, had a nicer home and had nicer things and I think that carries you all the way up to your professional career. If you're a kid who thinks you have more, you become an adult who thinks you have more skills too. Yes, I think it's just by nature of-- we're getting into it, but who your father is shapes who you are and how you see the world.

David: You also feel more comfortable. It's like, “I see my father succeed at something, I step into a law office, I'm more comfortable.” My father's a teacher. If I step into a law office, I have to learn as I go as a 25-year-old or whatever it is. He's spent days in the office when he was 10. He gets it. It's not scary to him.

Mike: It's like that thing of George Bush being like, “If that idiot can do it,” talking about his father, “I could just do it,” and that gave him the confidence to do it.

David: Good George Bush reference.

Mike: I need one. I always need one in every conversation I have.

David: You're like a big Bush fan.

Alison Stewart: Well done. You got yours in for the day. We're talking about Cellino v. Barnes with David Rafailedes and Mike Breen. They play Barnes and Cellino, Cellino and Barnes. Your part of this is a little bit of a love story between these guys. David, what do you think, how does Barnes makes Cellino a better man?

David: Oh, man. That's a good question. I do think in our show, if Barnes never showed up, Cellino floats. I think he floats through the firm. I think Barnes gives him a push to do more, I guess with his career. Barnes is a very intense individual. I think that being around that, naturally, you have to sit up a little straighter, you have to button up your work. I think in general, he probably pushed him further than he would have went otherwise in our play.

Alison Stewart: Vice versa.

Mike: Yes, I think Cellino opens Barnes' world a little bit. Barnes is very heads down. I love the work. He wants to do that. There's this guy who comes around and says, "It can be more than that. It can almost be fun. We can find new ways to navigate this world that you don't even know about." We even see on the show, Barnes takes a shot at doing that. He does open his world and Cellino turns that down for his own issues but yes, we actually get to see him affect Barnes a little bit.

Alison Stewart: Did you have any rights issues around the jingle? I kept wondering that during the play or you can just go for it.

Mike: Did you find out because we would love to know too.

[laughter]

Mike: We have no idea. Everybody asks and we go, “Nobody's stopped us yet so just keep singing it and see what happens.”

David: Yes. It's better to not ask, I guess as our plan. It's a good legal strategy is to not concern ourselves with it.

Mike: Sorry.

Alison Stewart: No, please.

Mike: Oh, and Ross, if you're listening, we really appreciate you not suing us so far. We'd love to keep using it and we think high tide raises all ships.

Alison Stewart: The way it’s staged now, it's like being in an office. It's a very small space as opposed to being up on a stage. What’s that do for you as a performer?

David: I love the space. I love how intimate it is. We're surrounded by audience members. It's jam-packed. It’s a small space, low ceilings, so it's great for comedy. It is like you can see every audience member and you can see their faces. You can see when they are laughing and when they're not or when they are crying. People don't cry too often during it. It is weird. It is a weird performance space. We're used to comedy venues that are very dark, just the laughs come and hit you. I just like to wander around. That's my goal, is to wander around and look at the top of everyone's heads.

Mike: Yes, I love the space. I love our set so much. It feels surreal. It is weird seeing people in the crowd. We have white walls unfortunately, so the light is bouncing back off and hitting the audience. I was shocked that one person sleeps during every show. There's one every single-

Alison Stewart: Got a napper every show?

Mike: -show. It's almost only one kind of person and they're always out. We have a late show. Somebody roams in all drunk, I'm like, “That's the sleeper, for sure.” Other than that, the set is so cool. I think our lighting design is incredible and I really love the space.

Alison Stewart: How much of the show-- there seems to be some improv. I'm assuming improv because just the eye contact between the two of you lets me know that's not on script. When do you decide to improv? Is it at that specific moment in the show?

Mike: There is no plan before. In some shows, we can really get away from it, for better or worse. I think it usually happens when I've got a line coming up and I'm not listening to Dave at all or doing my job and I'm like, “Hmm, I don't want to say this line, it hasn't worked the last two nights. I might try something else.” Then I throw something out there and hopefully it works and Dave responds to that and then it becomes a new back and forth.

David: Yes, there are not specific moments where we improvise. I think each of us enjoy surprising the other person. If I can make Mike laugh that he's not expecting, that's like, “Great, the audience seems to respond to that as well.” Each show is a little different. It's always something fun to add to it.

Alison Stewart: Dave, you have to wear the skullcap-

David: Yes.

Alison Stewart: -the bald head.

David: Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: How long does it take you, because you got a big old head of hair? I just said that out loud.

[laughter]

David: Yes. I have healthy head of curly hair. It takes two hours. It takes like an hour and a half. We get in about two hours before. When we first wrote it, we didn't pick who was going to play each person. We started writing jokes and it was like, “Oh, I like gravitating towards Barnes' sensibility here.” I was like, “Oh, it'd be fun. Oh, a bald cap will be fun.” We're like, “Who knows how long we're going to do this show? We’ll do a couple of them.” Then at no point did I plan for 20 straight shows of bald caps, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It's a process. I have a two-year-old and I call him from the chair just to surprise him when I have no hair and he's so confused by it.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Good dad move. We have somebody saying, they just realized, they just checked out and it's sold out through the weekend.

David: Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: Any possibilities for extension?

Mike: Yes. We don't think it's happening right away, but short answer, yes and we're excited about that.

David: Yes. We're leaving this particular venue right after this run and someone else has it so we can't extend directly from this but we are in talks to move it to a bigger and better show.

Mike: Well, we don't know about better.

David: Well, larger, I guess.

Alison Stewart: There's just one line and I have to ask about it. You always say, "This happened in real life,” which it is in the play. What's the purpose of that?

Mike: That is to define to people and let them know when we're doing something real. There are things in the show that are absolutely not. This was a way to let people know what is real and what isn't. We did it one time in a show and it went really well, and we were like, “All right, we need to find everything in the show that's real and then just let people know.” It lets us off the hook in some way. Sorry.

Alison Stewart: Because so much of what happened does not seem real but very much could be. The name of the show is Cellino v. Barnes. Keep your eyes open, it should be coming back in another incarnation. My guests have been Mike Breen and David Rafailedes. Thank you so much for being with us.

David: Thank you for having us. Thank you, thank you.

Mike: Thank you, Alison.

 

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