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Brigid Bergin: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin in for Alison Stewart. This summer over the July 4th, weekend, five people were bitten by sharks in New York. This uptick in shark attacks alarmed beachgoers and prompted Governor Kathy Hochul to announce a new program of shark-spotting drones. ABC News reports that Suffolk County Executive, Steve Bellone, told journalists that weekend, "This makes it clear that we're looking at a likely new normal." Another area that's been adjusting to a new normal when it comes to sharks is Cape Cod, which is the subject of a new documentary called After the Bite.

In 2018, a young man was killed by a shark, the first shark fatality that Cape has seen in about 80 years. The tragedy prompted contentious community discussions about how to keep swimmers safe without endangering sharks or the seals that are part of what lure sharks to the area. That's where Megan Winton comes in. She's a staff scientist for the Atlantic White Shark Conservancy and one of the subjects of the film. She and her colleagues work hard to track Cape Cod sharks, observe their behavior, and come up with new safety methods to help prevent more attacks. With waters warming and seal populations rising, is this a problem that can really be solved?

After the Bite is now available to stream on Max. I'm joined now by Director Ivy Meeropol and Megan Winton. Welcome to WNYC.

Ivy Meeropol: Thank you so much for having us.

Megan Winton: Happy to be here.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, shark expert, Megan Winton is ready to take your calls. What questions do you have about sharks and shark behaviors? Maybe you want to know how to best avoid sharks, I would like to avoid sharks. What to do if one approaches you? Maybe you just want some fun facts about sharks. Call and ask our white shark expert. The number is 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. You can also reach us on social media @allofitwnyc. Ivy, I want to start with you. A lot of your projects have been about politics. What got you interested in this story about sharks?

Ivy Meeropol: Well, it's a good question. I don't like to claim that I am a nature documentarian by any stretch. That said I have been fascinated with sharks and seals and marine wildlife in general. Also, becoming quite concerned like so many people with what's happening to the environment, climate change that we're seeing all these changes unfold right now. You're correct that the thing that first grabbed me about this story was the way the community was reacting. I was really struck by the divisions that happened right away among the community when Arthur Medici died. It felt like it was becoming politicized. The things that I'm interested in, would definitely dovetailed.

Brigid Bergin: Before we talk about Arthur's story, Megan, you've been involved with sharks on the Cape for a while. How did you first get into this line of work? When did you first fall in love with sharks?

Megan Winton: That's a great question. I think, I don't know I might have a little bit of an untraditional story as a shark biologist who thinks about sharks all the time these days. I'm not originally from Massachusetts or Cape Cod, I'm a wash ashore as they like to call us, but I'm from the Jacksonville, Florida area. My grandparents, both sets of grandparents, lived in New Smyrna Beach, Florida when I was a kid, and that has the dubious distinction of being the “Shark Bite Capital of the World.” When I was growing up going to the beach there, sharks were always in the back of my mind, but I was really afraid of them.

At one point, my sisters and I were swimming, there was a guy up the beach fishing, and he caught a shark right next to us. We ran screaming out of the water. We were all terrified how were we not just eaten by the shark. Then I just got fascinated with them. My mom started getting me books. I started watching Shark Week when I was a kid, and I realized that they were really interesting fish and that they had gotten a really bad rap, and that a lot of shark populations around the world were in trouble. That became my mission when I was eight or nine years old, and I haven't looked back then. I feel very fortunate to think about sharks on the daily, I essentially never had to grow up.

Brigid Bergin: I just have to say as an aside, as I was watching the film, I really noticed how you would often or particularly scientists refer to the shark as fish, that's a big fish. It struck me because when I think of sharks, I guess, I just think of them as their own whole category, that is just a shark. You talked about the fact that biologically they are fish, and then you have this very big fish that would be swimming in the side of the boat. I had moments where I felt like I was watching Jaws based on some of the size of the fish. Ivy, I want to talk about, and you already touched upon it, but the death in 2018. This is when things really started to change in the community. Can you tell us what happened?

Ivy Meeropol: Sure. Well, in September of 2018, early in that month, as a gentleman named Dr. Lytton had been bite and survived, and there'd also been a shark bite in 2012. People were really becoming more and more aware there was-- or signs appearing on the beaches warning about sharks, and there were stop the bleed kits being made available, which is a chilling thing to see when you're going to the beach.

Then, unfortunately, later in September, that same year, 2018, a young man, 26-year-old Arthur Medici, was boogie boarding. By all accounts, he was just magnificent boogie boarder and quite athletic and putting on quite a show. Unfortunately, he had a fatal interaction with a shark that day, and it just was a horrific experience for everyone who was, of course, on the beach, but in the community as well. It really shook everybody up. There were townhall meetings which you see in the film, which is very much like Jaws, in some respects, it was mimicking what happens in the film of Jaws.

The community-- I mean, quickly, scientists like Meg, and Greg Skomal, and the Atlantic White Shark Conservancy started figuring out ways that they could use their work to help warn beachgoers or help educate beachgoers so that this wouldn't happen again. The good news is that it hasn't happened since 2018.

Brigid Bergin: Well, since you mentioned it, I want to play a clip from that community meeting held in the wake of the attack, Meg and you were actually at that meeting. Here is a community member named John who stands up to speak his mind.

John Kartsounis: Good evening, everyone. My name is John Kartsounis, Wellfleet resident. I'm a father of three children, two of which have been lifeguards in the past, [unintelligible 00:07:53] senior lifeguard. My daughter was present during Arthur Medici's, fatal attack. It was horrific. She tried to help as far as she could. I've been surfing and swimming in the outer beaches for 35 years. I won't allow my kids to go in anymore. We have a problem here, ladies and gentlemen, and the problem is manmade.

Moderator: Excuse me, thank you. I appreciate. There's lots of people here who feel that way [crosstalk]--

John: That public safety is an important issue. That's in the role of government. Number one role of government is public safety, not shark safety, not shark conservation. I understand where some of the advocates on that side are coming from, but not to be at the expense of humans. That's the issue here, and we have to address it. I hope you all take it very seriously. Thank you.

Brigid Bergin: Megan, what would you say to people who are making this argument that the work of shark conservation prioritizes sharks over human safety?

Megan Winton: It's a great question. It's a tough question. It's something scientist in areas where shark fisheries have been well managed, and we're starting to see shark populations coming back are confronting a lot. It's really important to remember that what is going on off of Cape Cod and in the broader US Atlantic right now, really is a conservation success story in terms of shark management. A lot of shark species in our areas, including the white shark population declined really dramatically in the second half of the 1900s as our fishing pressure really ramped up.

As we're seeing those populations come back plus more and more people are going to the beaches, as the human population continues to grow and more and more people are taking up watersports, we are seeing interactions increase in different ways. It's really important to remember that even though the risk of having a bad interaction with a shark is still low, it doesn't negate the human side of things. A lot of times you'll see shark scientists come on TV and discount it like, "Well, it's a really low probability event," but that doesn't in any way, shape, or form give credit to the human cost. This was the first time in 2018 where I was a member of a really small community that was impacted, and it was so traumatic and it was so tragic, and our hearts all just broke that day. It really made us realize how important the public safety side of things is on Cape Cod and in other areas as well.

We are very proactive in terms of the science that we're doing to learn more about the predatory behavior of these animals because they hunt for seals in really shallow water right off our beaches here. As part of that, we work really closely with the towns and the beach managers, and we do so much education work to get the word out to people who are coming to our beaches because if they don't know white sharks are hunting for seals in less than 15 feet of water off of our beaches, they don't know to act any differently. They don't know to modify their behavior, to reduce the chance of having a bad interaction with the shark.

If you go into National Park, into a wooded area where you know grizzly bears occur, most folks know that there are simple steps they can take to reduce their risk of having a bad interaction with a grizzly bear, even though it does sometimes happen, but a lot of times people think of the beach as not really as much of a wild area. It's really important to remember that every time you go into the ocean, you're entering a wild environment and there are predators around, but I do want to reiterate that it really is a conservation success story. There are so many challenges going on in the environment these days that when we see these sorts of situations and we see that management can work and that these populations that have been severely depleted can come back, that's a hopeful thing for mankind as well.

Brigid Bergin: I want to bring in one of our callers. Lorraine in Westchester, thanks so much for calling All Of It on WNYC.

Lorraine: Hi, Alison. Can you hear me?

Brigid Bergin: I can hear you. I'm actually Brigid Bergen filling in for Alison, but he gave me a chance to remind listeners of that. Thank you very much, Lorraine.

Lorraine: Sure. You got it.

Brigid Bergin: Do you have a question for our guests?

Lorraine: Well, Ivy answered it really in her last sentence regarding how close sharks will come to the shore. I've been going to Cape Cod for decades, North Truro in Provincetown and I swim in the water, sometimes not from the shore, but where the water is already 15 feet high because the houses and condos are higher so you can enter higher. In the month of September or October, is it not a good idea to swim at that time? Are sharks migrating? I know the seals are.

Megan Winton: That's a great question and it just points to how much work we have to do because you're a Cape Cod local and our messaging obviously hasn't reached you. What we have found based on tagging and tracking data and monitoring the population over almost the past decade now, is that white shark activity peaks in August, September, and October when waters off of Cape Cod are the warmest. We published a study a few years ago where we used a couple of different tag technologies to determine that when white sharks are off of Cape Cod, they're spending about half of their time in water that's 15 feet deep or less off of the beaches.

If you pay attention to the seals when you're here, you'll notice that they stay as tight to the beach as they can. They know there are large sharks out there hunting for them but they also know that the sharks are so big they can't get in very shallow water. One thing we always tell folks, and when you come back next time, please pay attention to your depth and just know that sharks are out there. A big part of this all is awareness, just even knowing those animals are there.

Ivy Meeropol: Also to add that, don't swim at dawn or dusk during those periods as well. That's typically when they're most active, right, Meg?

Megan Winton: White sharks, their whole predatory strategy is based on stealth. Essentially, if a seal sees them coming, they're not going to be successful because seals are big and agile and they've got big teeth and big claws, and they will fight back if they see a shark coming. Anything that increases the stealth, twilight hours, dawn, dusk, really murky water, you want to be aware of white sharks are visual predators, so anything that reduces their ability to discern what's in the water could lead to them making more of a mistake.

I will say that we have seen sharks feed on seals at noon, in the middle of the day, in beautiful clear water. They're very opportunistic predators. They're very selective, cautious predators. We see them investigate things a lot as well, but when you're a really big shark and you don't have hands, the only way you can investigate unknown objects to determine if they're suitable prey is with your mouth. It's really important watch your depth when you're on Cape Cod.

Pay attention to signs, pay attention to the lifeguards. I'd also encourage you, we have a free app called the Sharktivity app, where we are constantly reporting sightings when we're out on research trips. If you're at the beach and you see a shark, you can be a citizen shark scientist as well. Follow our social media pages because we're always trying to get as much information out there as we can to let folks know where we're seeing sharks and when activity is high.

Brigid Bergin: Megan, you talked at the beginning about how your fascination with the sharks developed because you spent time in the shark capital of the world. I just saw the movie, Jaws as a kid, and I remember the impression that it made on me in terms of my own anxiety around sharks and swimming in bodies of water, fresh or ocean. I'm wondering, you've offered some really great advice and some tips in terms of the education you're doing within the community. Do you yourself swim in these waters?

Megan Winton: It's a great question. It's one people always like to ask us kind of got you question.

Brigid Bergin: It's more just curiosity.

Megan Winton: I do. I am from Florida. I think the waters off of Cape Cod are frigid year-round. When we're out on the water and we see people in their bathing suits and the water temperature is like 55 degrees, I'm like, "Woo, you are a much tougher person than I am." I will dip in but I stay very shallow when I do is the truth of it.

Ivy Meeropol: It's definitely changed how I go in the ocean. I typically swim in the bay out here, which we always felt was somewhat immune from shark activity which is not the case. I certainly do not swim as far out in the bay as I used to.

Brigid Bergin: Ivy, this film, I feel like you, you go through some of the different factors that could be contributing to the rise of sharks, the increase in the seal population, some federal laws that have allowed for the increase in the seal population, but eventually, we do get to the issue of climate change. Some of the conversations you have with some of the fishermen I thought were particularly blunt about what they are observing when they are out in those waters. Why was that structurally important for you to do it in that way, to land in this space where we're talking about climate change?

Ivy Meeropol: Well, I think when I set out to make this film, I, like many people, assumed that the root of the story, that they're being drawn to the cape because the water is warming, which it is. I know Meg says the water's cold, but it is not as cold as it used to be. That's for sure.

Megan Winton: Definitely not even since I've been here.

Ivy Meeropol: What I learned from Meg and Greg and talking to other shark scientists, is that you cannot necessarily pin the arrival of so many great white sharks around Cape Cod to climate change. Megan, I think because they go wherever they want to, and they are so mysterious still, and we are still just learning so much about their movements and their patterns. We couldn't really make that claim, that specific claim. Yet it was very important to me to address that climate change is happening. This story is about how human beings are reacting to major changes happening in our environment, this story specifically about a lot of sharks and a lot of seals and the waters off the Cape.

I wanted to tell a bigger story, and it was really important to have the fishermen be our messengers. There are a lot of people in this country and beyond who don't want to hear anything about climate change and reject it. If they hear a scientist talking about it just becomes noise. They will reject it. I felt that hearing it from fishermen, people who are out on the water, who see it firsthand and talk about it in this very, very understandable, recognizable way that they are seeing fish that they never saw in these waters before. To me, that was a way to get this message across. Just using a different approach.

Brigid Bergin: I thought it was a really powerful way to bear witness to what they were experiencing, just living their lives and doing their work and being out on that water. Megan, so much of the work that you are doing, the science of sharks is about understanding these animals but also, learning things about what their contribution is to our full ecosystem. Are there any particular things that you have started to discover that you think is important for people to know about what you're learning about these creatures?

Megan Winton: I don't think I have enough time.

Brigid Bergin: I should note that you have about a minute and a half to tell me all the answers to that

Megan Winton: Oh, man. One thing that is really interesting about the situation with white shark that we're in right now is we know they are important apex predators. They're at the top of the food web. Right now they're the only known natural predator of seals in this area. Folks who complain about the explosion and the number of seals and think there are too many seals around, for them, in a lot of ways the white shark returning is a good thing.

This species has been so rare in our area and absent for so long that we really don't know what all those trickle-down effects are going to look like so we're just starting to dig into those things now. We don't know how many seals a white shark eats when they come here, that's one of the studies we're working on right now. They also stress seals out in different ways, and they don't only eat seals, they're very opportunistic predators and they eat a lot of different things.

We know this species is incredibly important, that food webs are very complex, but we're just now seeing how that all is going to play out and hopefully, we have the opportunity to see these things into the future.

Brigid Bergin: I want to thank you both. My guests have been Ivy Meeropol, the director, and Megan Winton, a staff scientist at the Atlantic White Shark Conservancy. She is featured in a new documentary, which is streaming now on Max, it's called After The Bite. It is a fascinating look at these animals, white sharks. I mentioned Jaws, but this movie is not Jaws. It is so interesting, and it's such a portrait of a community. Thank you both so much for joining me here on All Of It.

Ivy Meeropol: Thank you so much, Brigid.

Megan Winton: Thanks so much for having us. Really appreciate it.

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