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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. On tomorrow's show, Samantha Bee will join us to discuss her new one-woman show that comes to BAM this weekend. We'll have an entire show devoted to Climate Week. That's going to happen on Friday. That's in the future, but right now, we're going to talk parenting problems.

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Alison Stewart: There is a story that's been receiving a lot of attention about an issue a lot of people can relate to. New York Magazine's recent cover story called Can Parents and Childless People Be Friends? The Instagram post about the story has elicited more than 17,000 likes and comments like, "I feel seen by this article. Truly, thank you. It's hard to articulate these feelings that you captured as an unmarried non-mother."

Another user wrote, "The only people who aren't understanding when their friends have babies are people who think they deserve the amount of attention a parent gives a child from everyone in their lives." Another simply said, "I am friends with you and not your baby." The online version of the article has more than 250 comments, many lengthy ranging from thoughtful to rude with people leaving all kinds of perspectives. This comes as more and more young women are opting to be child-free.

A 2021 Pew Research survey says that 44% of non-parents, ages 18 to 49, say it's "not too likely or not likely at all" that they'll ever have children. That's up about 7% from 2018. Let's dig into the subject. With me now to take your calls about these friendship dynamics are Zak Rosen and Jamilah Lemieux. They are two of the three hosts of the Slate parenting advice podcast, Mom & Dad Are Fighting. Hi, Zak.

Zak Rosen: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Jamilah, nice to meet you.

Jamilah Lemieux: Nice to meet you.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you someone who has experienced the loss of friendship or a change in your friendship after children entered the equation? Tell us what happened and why. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call us up and join us on air or you can text to us at that number, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Of course, you can reach out to us on social. This is a judgment-free zone, so you can say how you feel. It's okay.

Why do you think having a child can bring tension into a friendship, particularly between friends who have kids and those who don't? Tell us your story. If you have some advice on how you navigated this dynamic with your friends after you had kids or if your friend had kids, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. All right. Clearly, friendships change all the time, friendship dynamics, but this conversation seems to have struck a real nerve with people. Zak, why do you think that is? Let's talk big picture.

Zak Rosen: It sounds like it's partly because Allison P. Davis, who is such an incredible writer, was going through this stuff herself and seemed to come out and talk about it. I remember the same thing happened when my wife and I were having some infertility issues. You don't think anyone's thinking about it until you actually come out and talk about it.

Then it's like, "Oh, yes, I'm a human being just like all these other people and we're all experiencing this." I think that's actually part of the text and subtext of this piece like, "Come out and talk about what you're going through and what you need." I think just that idea of like, we need to communicate better, frankly, we just need to be reminded of that daily. I don't know if it's especially topical now. I think it just always is important.

Alison Stewart: Jamilah, why do you think this particular topic has struck a nerve?

Jamilah Lemieux: Because it's a reality of life for so many people, particularly in their 30s. Once you have children, you change. Your priorities change. Your needs change. Your day changes. You're not available to be the same person to your friends that you were before. For people who don't have children, that can be really difficult to lose those friendships and it can be difficult for parents to lose those friendships as well.

Alison Stewart: Zak, let's talk about some of the struggles faced on both sides, people on both sides of this equation. What's an example of a frustration a non-parent friend might have that's truly legit, and then what's one in your opinion that's not that fair?

Zak Rosen: A legit frustration is like, "Dude, you're never available anymore," which is, that's true. It's really hard to find time. That is legit. Not legit? I don't want to tell someone that their frustrations are non-legit. What are you trying to do to me?

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Well, look, I'll give you a frustration that might be not legit. Not understanding that it's not in the budget for a babysitter this week.

Zak Rosen: Yes, totally. That is not legitimate. You're right.

Alison Stewart: That one maybe is not so legit.

Zak Rosen: Yes, agreed. Agreed.

Alison Stewart: Jamilah, what do you think? What is a frustration for a non-parent that's legit, one that's maybe not so legit?

Zak Rosen: I think there's one that goes both ways. All you want to do is talk about the baby, right? For somebody who doesn't have children, particularly somebody who maybe wants to have children in the future and isn't so sure if that's going to happen for them, to have to constantly hear about a child can be annoying. One that's not legit is all you want to do is talk about the baby. Because when you have a young child, it is on your mind. It is your new life and you need to be able to express those feelings to people around you with some understanding.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Sarah's calling in from Bergen County. Hi, Sarah. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Sarah: Hi, Alison.

Alison Stewart: Hey, how are you?

Sarah: I'm good. Thanks. I'm calling because I had a best friend. We lived on opposite sides of the country. After I had my first baby, we drifted apart a little bit. Then after I had my second baby, I divulged postpartum depression and I felt like I could not ever get her on the phone. I felt like I totally lost my best friend and I was in a really dark place in my life. The loss of that friendship really compounded the awful thing that is postpartum depression and anxiety. I still get sad when I think about it because I still really miss her.

Alison Stewart: You have not been able to mend the friendship?

Sarah: No, not really. We do live on opposite sides of the country, so it's not easy to see her. Even when one person had a trip to New York or I took a trip out to California once, it was just like she just didn't have the time for me. Now, she does have her own kid and I don't even know if it entered her mind how devastating a blow she dealt me during that time period.

Alison Stewart: I can hear that you're really still pretty hurt from it.

Sarah: Yes, I really was.

Alison Stewart: Sarah, thank you for sharing. Really appreciate you being so honest. Let's talk to Jackie calling in for Morris Plains, New Jersey. Hi, Jackie. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Jackie: Hi there. I'm really excited to be on the show. I'm shocked. I have a guy best friend and we are very close. We do a lot of just things at night or just spontaneous things. We go camping every summer and go to a lot of live shows, live music, and that's clearly at night. Lately, he's just been canceling on me or saving that extra time for the potential baby. He, forever, was my friend who both of us did not want kids. Now, there was an accident. Now, he is having said baby. It just totally changed the dynamic of our friendship and it's weird. I think he doesn't really get where I'm coming from.

Alison Stewart: How are you feeling about the changed dynamic, Jackie?

Jackie: Kind of left out a little bit. A lot of my friends too just generally are all either pregnant or already have kids. It's just a weird feeling.

Alison Stewart: Jackie, thank you for calling in. If you don't mind, Zak or Jamilah, and feel free to pass, did this happen in your life? Did you have an experience like this with a child-free friend, Zak? Excuse me.

Zak Rosen: We told some friends of ours who didn't have kids about my wife's first pregnancy and you're expecting people to be pretty excited for you because it's a big deal. They reacted with solemn indifference. That was like, "Whoa." We were not expecting that and we haven't really hung out with them since then. They've since had a kid. I think it would probably be big of me to reach back out. We're friendly when we see each other and stuff, but that was like a whoa because, inevitably, the dynamic is going to shift. There's no way around that. It's just about how you work with that, that shifting dynamic.

Alison Stewart: Jamilah, did you have an experience like this?

Jamilah Lemieux: With some of my friends, I was the first one in the circle to have a baby. There were people who felt like I didn't have time for them and I felt like they didn't have time for me. It wasn't so much how they reacted when they found out I was pregnant. It was just not being super present after the baby was born. Within a few years of her being here, I worked really hard to bring my friends around her and make sure that they were having time with her too, and to integrate her into my friend circle.

Alison Stewart: You used the word "work." What kind of work did you have to do?

Jamilah Lemieux: Well, just a matter of saying, "Hey, guys, I need some time. You all can come over. I'll get some drinks. We can hang with the baby," just facilitating together time.

Alison Stewart: I saw you got--

Zak Rosen: What a key thing. What a key thing that Jamilah just said. Just, "I need," it's so hard for us to say. Good on you, Jamilah, for saying that because I think both sides, childless or child-free and with child, we have to tell each other what we need and I need to practice that just as much as anyone else.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Zak Rosen and Jamilah Lemieux. They're the host of Slate's parental advice podcast, Mom & Dad Are Fighting. We're talking about the dynamic of friendships once kids enter the picture. Are you someone who's experienced a loss of a friendship or a change in a friendship when the little one showed up? Tell us what happened. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Maybe you've experienced this and you've figured out a hack, a way around it like Jamilah did. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can join us on the air or you can send us a text there or at social media @AllOfItWNYC. You want to hear from folks who have kids and folks who don't have kids about the changing dynamics in friendships when the little ones enter the picture?

There's also this idea, Zak. I remember when I had my child, it's hard to maintain a social life of any kind once you become a parent. You have to realize there's going to be a change. There's going to be a transition. New York is a big thing where people are like, "Baby should not be in bars," but a lot of bars are opening up early so people can go for brunch. How do you suggest new parents deal with that transition about what social life means?

Zak Rosen: I like that scene that Allison Davis paints at the end of her piece where it's like there was a birthday party. It was people with with kids come at 4:00 so the kids can have some time and then there will be an after-party starting at 7:00 PM. It was both child-free and the new parents are making concessions. The child-free folks maybe aren't, I don't know, smoking pot or something out in the open or getting as drunk as they would otherwise. The people with child are leaving before the party ends. I think it's about compromising socially, whatever that may be. I don't think that either side is going to be perfectly happy necessarily.

Alison Stewart: Jamilah, how about for you, the transition, handling that transition from, "I was once an out-at-night, social person," to "That person still lives inside me, but I also have this person who lives outside of me now who needs to be taken care of"?

Jamilah Lemieux: I think it's a matter of, if you have the ability to do so, making time for your friends without your kid. Not all parents can do that. I'm a single mom. I have a friend who's a single mom who doesn't have a co-parent. When we see her, we see her child. For those of us who have another parent they can call on or a grandma or babysitter, every once in a while, you got to say, "Hey, I need you to keep the kid. I need to be with my friends. They need to experience me and just me."

Alison Stewart: Todd from LA has texted us, "Great topic. I also want to point out. The dynamic between friends can change even with both friends have their own kids. Schedules don't always line up, which becomes a hurdle. Also, even different parenting styles can change your view of your friend." Ooh, Zak, thoughts on that?

Zak Rosen: Yes, I guess that's true.

Alison Stewart: Seeing your friends as not your friends but seeing your friends as parents, that's an interesting new layer to the person you thought you knew.

Zak Rosen: Yes, I'm trying to think about the last time I was judgy toward a friend based on what they were doing, which I'm sure I was. I'm going to think about it for a minute because we all judge because we all think like, "No, you should be doing it my way. I'm more chill than you."

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kate calling in from Vernon, New Jersey. Hi, Kate.

Kate: Hey, great to be on. I don't have any kids. I'm in my late 30s. I've been through this several times with friends and family. My recommendation actually to people who don't have kids and are going through this is you have to be super patient. Because for the first 5, 7, 10 years, those parents are possessed with their child. Then after that, they chill out and things change.

Your friends will be really happy to have you back and they'll be really appreciative that you stuck with them through that period. I do feel like there's a burden that falls on the friendship for the people who don't have the kids because you have to be super understanding. You have to hold the kid. You have to do all this stuff that you don't really want to do. You have to be happy for them. That's hard for some people, but it's worth it and your friends will be thankful.

Alison Stewart: Kate, I want to ask about you using the word "possessed" with their child. [laughs] Why did you choose "possessed"?

Kate: Because for a parent, they're like, "Oh, of course, this is my child. This is the most important thing in my life." From the outside when you're watching it, it's like an obsession. When you see it objectively, it's actually a very odd thing. It's like, all of a sudden, somebody's life totally changes. It's all they talk about. It's all they think about. It is like a possession experience. That's what it looks like from the outside. I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just I don't know how else to describe watching that happen to someone.

Alison Stewart: Kate, thanks for calling in. We have got a lot of calls lined up for our guests, Zak Rosen and Jamilah Lemieux, hosts of the Slate parenting podcast, Mom & Dad Are Fighting. We're talking about how friendships change when kids enter the picture. We'll take more of your calls. We'll have more with our guests after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are Zak Rosen and Jamilah Lemieux. They're hosts of the excellent parental advice podcast, Mom & Dad Are Fighting, from Slate. We're talking about the dynamic of friendships. What happens to them when one friend has a kid and the other does not? This is a really interesting text from Lacey. Lacey from Brooklyn says, "Success story here. Never wanted kids. Plenty of friends and family with them. They always make time for me with and without the kids. I'm the cool auntie with disposable income. Now, the older ones are trained to bring me coffee in bed when I visit and they do little errands for me." Jamilah, tell me about embracing auntie energy.

Jamilah Lemieux: Oh, my goodness. Aunties are so important and uncles. I moved away from all my friends, even though one of them is moving here. I'm really excited. My friends who are child-free have really shown up for my kid, excuse me, in such an amazing way. They've performed in costumes at birthday parties. They've just been the fun auntie and uncle and they've really leaned into that. That means a lot to me. I think children are part of our community. They're part of our world. When your friend has a child, that's really a part of your community. I think it's important to take your role as a member of their village seriously and to show up for them. Come to recitals, come to birthday parties, be present.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Anna on Line 7 from Manhattan. Hi, Anna. Thanks for calling in.

Anna: Hi there. Thank you so much. I'm echoing that same feeling on the parent side, which is that I'm very fortunate to have several close friends who, when I had children, really embraced and continue to embrace my children. They're the aunties and they send my kids birthday cards. When they visit, they want to hang out with my kids. They're local. They will help me with pickup some days.

They'll take my kids to the park. They'll come visit us in the park. They really want to be involved in my children's lives as my friends. I think as a parent, it's important for me to recognize sometimes that they want to just be with me as their friend. I try to also make time for them separately to maintain our friendships. I think it's really wonderful that they do embrace my kids because my kids are such a huge part of my life obviously.

Alison Stewart: Anna, thanks for calling in. Donya from New Rochelle has an interesting take. Donya, you're on the air.

Donya: Yes, hi. I'm calling about friends that have pets. My experience has been with friends that have pets is that they look at their pets as children and they want to be referred to as mom and dad. As a result of that, it has been very difficult in terms of spending time with them because you have to accommodate the pet, particularly the dog, in your visiting. That is going to dog park. That is when you come by. If you want them to put the dog away, that's not an option. If they come to visit, they expect to be able to bring their animal.

Previously with going on vacation, they expect that we would stay at a hotel or an Airbnb that could accommodate their dog. I do find that inconsiderate. Also, I find that the same way that parents will talk about their children and what's going on, certain people will talk about their animals, and they expect the part of the conversation will be devoted to the new trick that their animal has.

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Donya: I do have to say that I am a parent and I am a grandparent-

Zak Rosen: To humans or dogs, Donya?

Donya: -and I have friends with children.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Donya: These people don't have children. I find it very frustrating and I'm sure that there are other people that find it frustrating as well, so I'm just expressing myself.

Alison Stewart: Well, thank you, Donya, for expressing yourself. Zak, you seem to enjoy that call.

Zak Rosen: I love that. Thanks, Donya. I am a dog dad too. Frankly, I can hear where you're coming from, Donya, and that it can be frustrating if someone is bringing their pet everywhere. I get that. At the same time, if you do or don't have human babies, if you have a pet, they are also your child. People have really deep relationships with their pets. I see where they're coming from too.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "Most of my close friends started having kids pretty quickly after high school. Since these were important friendships that I didn't want to give up, I adjusted to spend time with them and their kids, and also help them with babysitting at times. Also, the amount of time their children needed so much attention went by relatively quickly. I also appreciated knowing the children as they grew up. In short, it took patience and seeing the bigger picture." That is from Anya from Brooklyn, which is quite an evolved position.

On a serious note, some of these calls have been fun. Some of them have been thought-provoking, but I think we have to take into account, there could be some deeper issues here about whether someone wants to remain child-free, whether someone doesn't have a choice. They perhaps can't have children. When you start thinking about the deeper reasons for why there might be conflict, Jamilah, based on you doing an advice podcast, how would you suggest opening up conversations about this when you really suspect that there's something deeper going on?

Jamilah Lemieux: I think it's important to be as honest as possible. If you're the parent and you've got a child-free friend who's being distant or seems disengaged from your child and you don't know the status of their desires to be a parent or not or maybe you do know, start a dialogue about it and say, "Hey, I know that this has changed things with us. I know that my little one is always around. Is that okay for you? How are you feeling, and is this triggering for you?"

Particularly if you know somebody's had issues with fertility or deeply desires to be a parent and maybe doesn't have a partner, you have to be sensitive to that. If you know that somebody is struggling in that way, you should try to avoid always having the child around. This isn't the person who you send every picture to. This is somebody who needs to have some semblance of the friendship as it existed before even if it's limited.

Alison Stewart: Zak, you want to chime in?

Zak Rosen: Yes, and I totally agree. Jamilah is always so wise. The child-free person wants a piece of us without our kids and I want that friendship without my kid also. I need it just as much as my child-free friend does. I need to talk about something other than my kid. I just need to vent. I want to talk about work. I want to talk about movies. I want to talk about something beyond being a parent. It's just as important in my friendship ecosystem to have some time without my kids as it is for my child-free friend.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kevin calling in from Denver, Colorado. Hi, Kevin. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Kevin: Hey, thanks for having me. The big change I see for being a parent is the immediacy of it. When two people get together, it's a gradual thing. You form a relationship and you may decide to get married. You may decide to have kids, whatever. I think moms know this differently than dads do because the mom has the ability to get used to the idea for that whole gestation period. Once you have pushed that baby out, and I think, like I said, especially for the father, it becomes immediate. It's an immediate change to your life.

I think I heard two callers get it, the one woman who said that her friends in high school getting pregnant and whatever, or immediately after high school, and another woman who actually called in who was like, I felt, really understanding, and I really want to emphasize this, that the childless friend or the friend, they have to extend the compassion and the empathy because, and I'm sure you're going through this, Alison, once your kid hits 6 or 7, especially 8, 9, and 10, you're ready to have those friends back and you need those friends for support.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Kevin, thank you for calling in. Zak and Jamilah, is there anything on this issue that we haven't covered, you think is important you wanted to say? Zak?

Zak Rosen: I think we need each other. I think we need child-free friends, our child. It's just like Jamilah was saying. Kids are part of our community. I think just all different sorts of ways of being a family and ways of being in a community are necessary. I'm grateful for all my child-free friends.

Alison Stewart: Jamilah, how about you?

Jamilah Lemieux: Yes, it's important for there to be empathy on both sides, empathy towards the child-free parties, empathy toward the parents. Ultimately, like Zak said, we really do need each other. I think for child-free folks, particularly those who are child-free by choice who are not dealing with the pain of infertility or being unpartnered, to extend yourself to your friends with children. Keep those friendships going. Remember, they're doing the work of populating the planet. Someone gave birth to you. Somebody made those sacrifices. Somebody nurtured you and raised you. Look at children as part of that continuum and be proud of the small place you get to take in their lives.

Alison Stewart: Here's a nice text to wrap things up. "Our childless friends who stayed friends have been a wonderful part of our kids' lives. They were the village that helped raise our children." That's a nice thought.

Zak Rosen: Great.

Alison Stewart: Check out the podcast, Mom & Dad Are Fighting. Thanks to Zak Rosen and Jamilah Lemieux. Thank you so much for being with us and taking calls.

Jamilah Lemieux: Thank you.

Zak Rosen: Thank you. That was so fun.

 

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