[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your Friday with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll talk about the movie Poor Things with actor, Ramy Youssef, and screenwriter, Tony McNamara. We'll have a listening party with the Folk duo The Milk Carton Kids who are up for a Grammy Award for Best Folk Album. That's the plan. Let's get this started with Beverly Johnson.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: You and Me]

Alison: A few historic events happened 50 years ago in August 1974, and my next guest is responsible for one of them. President Richard Nixon resigned from tightrope between the Twin Towers, and Beverly Johnson became the first Black woman to grace the cover of American Vogue, the Fashion Bible. It was a bold move, given that American fashion magazines were dominated by blond, blue-eyed models like Christie Brinkley and Cheryl Tiegs, but there was something about Beverly that made her stand out, not just her skin color as she tells us in a new one-woman show, it was her big mouth.

Yes, she was called the model with the big mouth because she said what was on her mind, she left a hugely famous agent who didn't believe in her. She fought her way back from a low point of losing custody of her daughter, who she loves very much. She was among the first women to speak out and let the world know that Bill Cosby had preyed on her during a meeting about an acting part. It's all in her memoir-esque show titled Beverly Johnson: IN VOGUE. It's playing at the Act II Playhouse at 59 East 59th Street through February 4th. Joining me in studio now is the Beverly Johnson. It is very nice to meet you.

Beverly: Very nice to meet you. Thank you for that introduction.

Alison: When you were a little girl in Buffalo, New York, and someone asked you, "Beverly, what do you want to be when you grow up?" What did you say?

Beverly: I said, I want to be a lawyer, or maybe a Supreme Court judge. I was very much affected by the Civil Rights Movement. I remember watching a black-and-white television, and I'm on the floor doing my flutter kicks with my dad. That was our bonding time, watching the news. I remember the Civil Rights Movement on the news. I remember the hose being put on to protesters, and someone saying, "Yes, we could have to get some lawyers so we can get them out of jail," and at that moment, is when I said I wanted to be a lawyer.

Alison: You said flutter kicks, people may not know this about you. You were a competitive swimmer.

Beverly: Yes.

Alison: Did you ever think about the Olympics?

Beverly: Yes, I did. It was of first Black swim team and Buffalo, New York, we're talking about the '50s. We traveled right to three state areas, which I witnessed quite a bit of racism and discrimination, which was my first introduction to that, but it really gave me the confidence, competition can be very, very healthy, I think. I love to swim. I love being in a pool because you're in a another world. I still love swimming. I taught all my grandchildren how to swim.

Alison: All six?

Beverly: No, four. Two are bonus.

Alison: Okay, I got you. When you think about your time as an athlete and as a swimmer, how did that help you in your professional career?

Beverly: Oh, it helped me with everything. I had the same mindset in the way of being very disciplined. Also, knowing that, in a race, you keep your head down, you can peek every now and then, but basically, you want to touch the wall first. I think that kind of training really helped me. In the world of modeling, it seems kind of weird, but it did.

Alison: My guest is Beverly Johnson. The name of her show is Beverly: IN VOGUE. Your mom was a medical professional, a nurse, and your dad worked in a factory setting. Is that right?

Beverly: In the steel mill.

Alison: Steel mill.

Beverly: Yes.

Alison: Good solid, middle-class folks. I'm curious what values they instilled in you that helped you get through, especially the tough times, we'll talk about in a little bit, the tough times during your career.

Beverly: I am a combination of my mother and my father. They were just tremendous people, hard-working people. They bought a home with my father's GI Bill in all-white neighborhood. My father's working in a steel plant and my mother eventually had to go to work. I saw her studying all these really technical books because she was a surgical technician. Everything was about discipline, behaving, honoring yourself, dignity. They were really just amazing parents.

Of course, they had their faults, but when you grow up, you realize those thoughts are things that helped you around-- them pointing out those faults helped me in my life.

Alison: Who was the first person to suggest modeling to you?

Beverly: Mimi. Mimi worked at the Gini shop on Main Street and Buffalo, New York. My mom said, "You can't be the lifeguard at Beaver Island, you have to work." I was, "I don't want to do that." I went there, and Mimi, of course, I was the number one sales clerk, but besides that, Mimi said, "You should be a model." I said, "A model? I'm going to be a lawyer. Thank you very much." She kept saying that, and then at the end, before I was going to go off to North Eastern, she wrote a number on a piece of paper. She said, "If you ever in Manhattan call this woman."

I went to school, it was great. I got in the in-crowd. I've never been on the in-crowd because the girls there felt sorry for me because I was so homesick. I was crying every night on the phone, and they said, "Why don't you come with us? We teach about the soaps." They did. I had my part-time job at the Roxbury YMCA, I get my half pint of McCarty Rahm, making $28 a week. They said, "Why don't you become a model?" "I'm going to put this modeling thing, you make $75 an hour." I said, "My father makes $75 a week." That is why I went into the modeling business.

Alison: What was your first big shoot, not the Vogue cover, but your first shoot when you're like, "Oh, wait, I'm going to professional model now"?

Beverly: They literally sent me over to a shoot. The first day I was up at Glamour and they said, "We want to use you and all that." It was Glamour and Vogue together. It was a shoot of all of the famous models. I didn't know that at the time. We're standing on pedestals and things like that. Anyway, the next shoot was to shoot for Vogue magazine, that was the first shoot-- no, it was a Glamour magazine, and then Vogue magazine.

Alison: When you went out for these go-sees models, go-to season and they're getting looked up and down. How many other models of color did you see?

Beverly: Oh, so many models of color in the '70s. There were Black modeling agencies, anyway. It was so welcoming. I had no idea. Because we got through the Civil Rights we had overcome. Then Essence Magazine came along, so we were born at the same time, so to speak. It was just a very exciting time in New York City.

Alison: You're very clear in the show to shout out those who came before you.

Beverly: Yes.

Alison: The models who were the women of color, when they were the one and only in the room, who are some of the people you'd like people to know about who deserved their flowers?

Beverly: Naomi Simms was my predecessor. I remember her cover of Life Magazine, the most extraordinary-looking woman in the world. I remember her-- I have seen her walk out 57th Street, people literally came out of the shop, she stopped traffic. When I was doing all these wonderful things with Glamour and Vogue, she came over to me and just welcomed me and said, "I love what you're doing. Keep doing." She was so gracious to me. I said to myself at that moment, "I'm going to welcome the girls that are coming up behind me the same way she welcomed me."

Alison: You talked about in the show this idea of competition, and how it can mess with your head a little bit. This idea that there's somebody behind waiting to take your spot, but you need to be present, and do your job, and then to your point, you also want to reach at back. How did you balance that? I need to look out for Beverly, but I also want to make sure I look out for other girls too.

Beverly: Well, the competition is a fact, and the girls are coming is a fact. You'd rather be where you are now forever, that's just a fact. You might as well enjoy the ride, but I must say, for the first 10 years, I never had a vacation. I never had Thanksgiving and Christmas and whatever with my family because I was out traveling the world and working. My only regret and I don't have many regrets, because if I didn't go on that job, somebody else would have, so I was making sure that I was there. I still had that welcoming feeling with the new girls coming up because of Naomi Simms.

Alison: My guest is Beverly Johnson. The name of her one-woman show Beverly Johnson: IN VOGUE. The story is famous, but I want you to tell it anyway for people who don't know. You walked away from a huge modeling agency when they didn't believe that you could get the cover of Vogue. Will you share what happened?

Beverly: Yes. I was with Eileen Ford, and once she found out I was freelancing for Vogue and Glamour-- now, there's no Twitter or anything, no text messages or whatever those things where we send it over like-- She found out and she called me, and I knew I had found out she was the biggest agent. That's where I wanted to be. When I was working, and I realized that you needed the Vogue cover to be the top model, and that's where--

Alison: That's where you were going. That's why it was on your mind.

Beverly: A ton of focus. I said, "I like to be on the cover of Vogue." She said, "You'll never be on the cover of Vogue magazine. Who do you think you are, Cleopatra?" I know this woman well enough to know when she said that, she meant it. What I did is I wrote a beautiful letter. "You're like parents to me. I can't thank you and Jerry enough. I like to think that if I ever thought to return, that you would welcome me with open arms." I went to Wilhelmina. We got to cover. I stayed with Wilhelmina about six months, and then I went back to Eileen Ford. She said, "Welcome home." I was just like a little businesswoman at a very young age.

Alison: That is such a good lesson that you didn't burn a bridge.

Beverly: No.

Alison: You didn't turn on your heels and tell her who she was. You were very gracious about it.

Beverly: Very.

Alison: That's a really good lesson.

Beverly: Yes, and stayed friends her entire life. Was at her 90th birthday party. I told something that-- Because she was a very rough woman, and I told a story that everyone was laughing at, and I realized that she was getting offended. She did leave me in Europe with no money but anyways--

Alison: Oops. [laughs]

Beverly: She was the first woman I ever saw really wield power. I mean she was. I used to go up to the agency and just watched her. I just sat there, watched her all day.

Alison: What did you learn?

Beverly: I learned that she was fierce. She wasn't afraid. She would be threatening. "I've never sent a model over there to you ever again," slamming the phone down. I was like, "I like her." Then I realized that you're someplace and you can be there at the right time because she was looking for Naomi Simms. We couldn't find Naomi Simms to go to this trip to Europe. I was sitting there. She said, "We'll take her."

Alison: We'll send that girl.

Beverly: Yes.

Alison: Someone has just texted us out of the blue, please tell Ms. Johnson, Adriana and Chelsea loves her and was too young to ask her mommy to buy her first Vogue issue, bought it years later on Etsy and started my 1970s Vogue collection.

Beverly: Wow.

Alison: That's pretty great.

Beverly: That is wonderful.

Alison: When did you first realize that you being on the cover of Vogue meant something to people, to young girls like Adriana and young people, men, too?

Beverly: Yes. No, it wasn't until I started doing interviews, and they said, "How does it feel to be the first Black woman on the cover of Vogue?" I was like, "I am?" Because that's not something people go around saying. We don't allow any Black people on the cover. Nobody said that. Nobody said there's never been a Black person on the cover. It's all secret. Initially, I got mad. I'm like, "Hey, what?" I couldn't believe it. Then I realized that I had been chosen at a particular moment, and I had to woman up to be able to respect that.

I made a commitment to myself that I would do everything I can to respect that position, that first that I got.

Alison: What does it mean, though? You're beautiful, you're on the cover, but it had a bigger meaning.

Beverly: Totally.

Alison: I think about, especially for young women who never saw someone who looked like them on a cover, who maybe were told their skin color wasn't beautiful, the shape of their lips was not beautiful.

Beverly: This was globally. It was globally. It gave Madison Avenue the opportunity to use Black people because before, they didn't even see us. It was a pretty powerful cover and still is. I just start celebrating the birthdays of the anniversaries of this cover. Somebody said, "You don't celebrate that? That's a big deal." They always called me the Jackie Robinson of the modeling industry. I started celebrating that, and now, I'm celebrating 50 years. That's a half a century.

Alison: It's amazing.

Beverly: It is.

Alison: Beverly Johnson is my guest. The name of our show is Beverly Johnson: IN VOGUE at the Act II Playhouse on 59th Street until February 4th. You're very candid in the show that you start living a high-flying life. Once you start becoming famous, you'd have funny stories about Elizabeth Taylor throwing her diamond ring at you. Obviously, it's a limited time. What's the story that didn't make it to the show that you wanted to have in there-

Beverly: Oh, my goodness.

Alison: -that's good for radio? [laughs]

Beverly: Oh, my goodness. There were so many great stories. I mean, really. The story when I was left in Europe with no money and no passport. I had to get back to America.

Alison: You were on a job and you ended up with no money, no passport?

Beverly: Yes. It was Eileen Ford, and she did this competition with my girlfriend and I. We ran down to meet them at the dock because they had our passports and everything, and they were gone.

Alison: Oh, boy.

Beverly: Anyways, I ran back to whatever to see if they maybe left the passports there. By the time I got back, my girlfriend was gone. That didn't get in.

Alison: Oh, well, you made it back.

Beverly: Yes, by the grace of God. It was a very interesting trip back.

Alison: We'll leave it there with a very interesting trip back. You are in the show, you talk about, you're candid about your marriages and went to a man who turned out to be somewhat dangerous, was involved with the illegal activity, and he went out with custody of your daughter. You fought for this for a long time, and you and your daughter have a great relationship, we should say. When you're at that low point in your life, why didn't you give up? What made you pick yourself up and say, "I'm going to get out of this"?

Beverly: Most certainly my daughter, without a doubt, because it was so heavy and so dark and so dangerous. I'm from Buffalo, New York. I'm just a little nerd, a little introvert. I had gotten myself, not in hot water, I got myself in fire. I used to be on my hands and knees at night just praying to God, "God, I don't know how I'm going to get out of this." Once again, by the grace of God, I managed to get out of it.

Alison: You went on to do stage work as part of your healing process and what you wanted for yourself in the future. There was a part that you really wanted to play, and it was a cleaning woman. You really had to fight for this role. Why was this role, stage role, so important to you?

Beverly: It was important to me because she owned the Louisville Hotel, and she used to clean the Louisville Hotel because it was her property, and she didn't have the money. I love that woman, that she was a property owner, and she was feisty, and she saves this white guy's life because he's going to commit suicide. It just was a stunning play. Joshua Ravetch, who created my show, IN VOGUE, who also did Carrie Fisher's Wishful Drinking and a number of other shows. We became friends ever since. It was just really something I could get my teeth in, and it became really a great show and great reviews. That was the acting bug.

Alison: My guest is Beverly Johnson. We actually have a call from someone who was a photographer's assistant in the '70s. Bill, are you on?

Bill: I'm on. Yes. In '72 or '73, I was shooting Altman's Christmas Catalog. I was a second assistant at Dick Littman Studio.

Beverly: Yes.

Bill: On Central Park South.

Beverly: Of course.

Bill: You remember that? [laughs]

Beverly: I do. I do because that was a money job. You always remember the money job.

Bill: Yes, it was good pay at that time, right?

Beverly: Yes.

Bill: Yes, I remember when you came in, I thought, "Wow, she's really beautiful."

Beverly: Really?

Bill: You were so nice and so professional. Then on the way out, you gave me a hug, and it was like, "Oh, my God," no other model ever did that. I'm really glad you turned out so good.

Beverly: Oh, thank you so much.

Alison: Bill, thanks for calling in.

Beverly: So kind.

Alison: What would you want people to understand about that relationship between the model and the photographer?

Beverly: The relationship is not really a relationship. It's a creative process, and everyone has to-- working towards one goal. It's very interesting. It's not really between the photographer and you, it's between what we're creating, what that photograph is going to look like.

Alison: Yes. I think people don't understand. Modeling is a skill set. It definitely is. When I set up at TV, I worked on House of Style for several years as a producer with Cindy. When you see it up close, you realize it's performance, it is creative. If you've ever seen someone not do it well, you realize, "Ooh, modeling is a thing." It takes a skill set.

Beverly: Yes, it does. It most certainly does. For me, how I learned was going to the opera, the theater, dance, ballets, and all of that to try to educate myself on the art.

Alison: And on how to move your body too, I would bet.

Beverly: Yes. Dance.

Alison: The first words in the show is something we can't say on the air. It's a curse. It's one of the big ones and it's in reference to Bill Cosby. You shout MFR at the top of the show. Then you get back to it. It doesn't take over the show by any means, but it is a part of it. You talk about how when you went public with a story, where you said that Bill Cosby drugged you, many other women have claimed the same thing. People know he was convicted of aggravated indecent assault.

In one case, the conviction was thrown out because of the mistake made by the prosecutors. It doesn't mean he didn't do it. Why did you feel that you had to say it out loud what had happened to you?

Beverly: I had to. I hear all these women coming forward and telling their story. It was my story. Also, I wasn't raped. I made it out there alive to say. I had an angel on my shoulder that day. Who knows what I would have been like if I had been raped because it's devastating for women, totally destroyed their lives. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't say what happened to me. I didn't know it was going to be this big-- I knew the Black community was going to be mad because they want to believe that Bill Cosby is this-- so did I, but he's not.

He's a monster. I just had to do it. It really changed my life. It totally changed my life in a way of-- every corner of my life, I felt my power.

Alison: I just want to make sure people know you said you weren't raped, but you were drugged.

Beverly: I was drugged. I was drugged and if I hadn't had that big mouth, I would have been raped. I could remember his look when I called him that bad word. He was surprised-

Alison: Shocked, yes.

Beverly: -and just wanted to get me out of there because I went off. I don't know why, but I just went off. I was just so angry and it saved my life, basically.

Alison: You had the fight and the fight-or-flight.

Beverly: Yes, I did.

Alison: Even being drugged. Maybe this goes back to you being the competitor and being somebody who's very aware of their body and what's happening. The night I went to your show, the audience was funny. People talk back to you occasionally, you talk to people in the audience. I think there were some former editors in the audience. What is it been like to have that kind of feedback because you work on a show, and you work in the dark, and you work with your director, and then you go out and bring it to the world?

Beverly: Yes, this is a great experience. I'm having the same experience doing speaking engagements because remember, I'm a model, and it's a flat page. You don't see people. This is my way of-- you're really learning about people, and connecting with people, and hearing their stories, and hearing this relationship you have with these people that you don't even know you had a relationship with. It's been very inspiring for me. I'm loving it. I really am.

Alison: What's something about the current modeling industry that gives you hope and then what's something that gives you pause or concern?

Beverly: What gives me hope is the Model Alliance. The Model Alliance is a group of young models and they are making a difference. They went to Congress and they got that bill passed, where the statute of limitations were extended, and that's why Jean Carroll was able to bring her lawsuit against Mr. Trump. They want to make modeling or the fashion industry, a legitimate industry just like SAG or any other industry that you have, the waitresses union.

We need structure because there is quite a bit of abuse in the industry and not only that, there's no transparency as to-- we don't know how much we're getting from-- only the agent knows. They give you what they say they're giving you. They are doing that and I'm the big mouth that wants to help them.

Alison: What's something that gives you a little concern that you may be perhaps worried about the young men and women and non-binary folks in modeling? What's something that you gives you concern?

Beverly: Well, I just want to live in a world, where people can be themselves and that you respect people for who they are, or who they want to be, or who they think they are. That's just the basics. That's just step one. Then I think we can grow as this human community on the globe. Other than that, it's just going to be chaos.

Alison: So respect is what-- you want to make sure that people are respecting one another.

Beverly: Yes.

Alison: Got a call. Jennifer from East Harlem calling in. Hi, Jennifer. You're on the air with Beverly Johnson.

Jennifer: Thanks so much for taking my call, Alison, to the great work that you and your staff do every day. Ms. Johnson, I'm a huge admirer. I just want to say as somebody who has also come forward to expose and report predatory men, I think what you've done is so commendable and so important. I so value that you felt this commitment.

I also want to say that you underscore the importance of valuing women and their beauty at every age because I think you remain an incredibly beautiful woman, and even more so because of your substance and your power, and your willingness to make painful experience and such strengths and something to be admired and respected. I think you're an enormous role model as well as being, as I say, still a very beautiful woman. I very much look forward to seeing your performance. Thanks so much.

Beverly: Thank you.

Alison: Beverly is going to cry. Don't mess up your make up. Your make up is good. As we round up, what have you learned about yourself writing this show?

Beverly: Throughout this show is that I can revisit the good and great events, and I can revisit some of the worst events in my life and be okay. I still have my therapist, but be okay. Also, share those people. I want to share those with my daughter. I want her to know that you can rise up from the mistakes. I think people need to know that. Whatever it is, you can survive it. If you don't survive it, you fought hard to survive it.

Alison: Beverly Johnson: IN VOGUE is at Act II Playhouse at East 59th Street through February 4th. Beverly, thank you for giving us so much time today.

Beverly: Well, thank you very much.

 

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