[MUSIC]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studio in SoHo. Thank you so much for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, we're talking music of the past, present, and future. You know Josh Radnor as an actor from the TV as well as a new play at the Public Theater, but he's also a musician and he has a solo debut album out. We'll hear from Josh and some of his music.

We're launching our annual public song project, and we'll talk about how you can participate. We'll also hear from a musician who is participating one, Arturo O'Farrill, and learn about the musical history of the 1920s from musicologist and author Anna Celenza, and we'll hear how artists are taking inspiration from one of the most influential pieces of music created in that decade.

Artists like Lara Downes and the artistic directors of the orchestral collective called the Knights, who are launching a multi-year series called the Rhapsody Project in honor of the 100th Centennial of Rhapsody in Blue, and that is where we start the show today with a celebration of the Gershwin classic, but with a twist, and a twang.

[MUSIC]

Alison Stewart: At the recent Grammy Awards, banjo virtuoso Béla Fleck earned his 16th and 17th Grammys for Best Contemporary Instrumental Album and Best Global Music Performance. Now in a new project, Fleck turns his sights to his hometown, New York City, and the music of George Gershwin. Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue premiered today, February 12th, 1924, at the Aeolian Hall in Manhattan. Hastily written a month before its premiere, it has become an American classic, celebrated for its blending of traditional European classical and new American jazz music.

Out today for the Rhapsody Centennial Béla Fleck is releasing an album titled Rhapsody in Blue with several versions of the piece, including its opening track, Rhapsody in Bluegrass, a rootsy riff on the composition featuring Béla and his Bluegrass Band. To mark the release, we're excited to share an exclusive solo performance of the tune from Béla Fleck right here from the WNYC Studios. Here's Béla Fleck with Rhapsody in Blue.

[MUSIC - Béla Fleck: Rhapsody in Blue]

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for being here, first of all.

Béla Fleck: My pleasure, good to be with you.

Alison Stewart: When do you remember developing an appreciation for Rhapsody in Blue?

Béla Fleck: Well, it all started when I was very young, and I got to go to the Thalia Movie Theater, which was on-- Let's see. It was on 95th Street between Broadway and West End, five blocks from where I grew up. They played old movies there, and I got to see the Rhapsody in Blue movie. My uncle, Steve, took me there, and it blew my mind.

At that age, I'm not exactly sure what year it was, but I was definitely in the age group where you could really have quite an experience seeing something like that you'd never seen before. I'd never really heard an orchestra before. The story of George Gershwin in that movie was a biopic, is that what they call?

Alison Stewart: Bio-pic.

Béla Fleck: Biopic. Bio-pic.

Alison Stewart: We'll go for about either one.

Béla Fleck: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Tomato or tomatoe.

Béla Fleck: Very romantic and sad when he died. Then as time went on, I discovered he actually lived right around the corner from where I lived a few years later, and he became part of the New York Gestalt as years went on. This was before I even played the banjo.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Béla Fleck: I just loved it. I just loved the peace, loved his story. He was a hero around, still around the Upper West Side in the community of musicians and people that I knew. I guess, in my family, my uncle was a big, big fan of his, Steve Rose and my uncle. Yes, I learned to play the banjo, and when I was around 15, and when I was a senior at Music and Art High School, Upper 135th Street, they played that piece for the semi-annual, the final performance of the school year and two different pianists played it.

I got to play banjo in the orchestra, which was just a strong part that was there in the original performance, but I was lusting after that piano part. At this point, I was playing the banjo quite a lot, and I was really curious about all the music that was in that piano part. It just blew my mind. I loved it.

Alison Stewart: That was my next question. When did you start to appreciate the musicianship of Rhapsody in Blue?

Béla Fleck: I think it was one of my first great musical experiences seeing that movie. Even seeing it now, it's so stylized. If you ever get a chance to watch it, it's really funny how they shot the orchestra piece, but it was very romantic and the music was the hero. George was the hero, of course, but so was the music. That was the first time but every time I heard it, I was knocked out by it.

Even after I left New York and started trying to make a career playing banjo music, I would occasionally check in with that piece, and listen to it, and go, "Yes, it's still great. I still love that piece." Then fast forward to pandemic times, and I had a lot of time on my hands, and I started exploring, "What would it be like to try to actually play the piano part?" which was clearly going to be impossible, and is impossible because a pianist has 10 fingers they can play with at the same time, and I've got three that pluck.

They have the whole piano to play. There's just a lot of things that are just impossible to play on the banjo, the way you could play it on the piano, but there are things you can play and ways to make it work. I always liked to try to figure out how to make things work.

Alison Stewart: What was the first step to making it work? What was the first big leap you had to take?

Béla Fleck: Well, there's a first entrance when the piano comes in. It did very short, and that was the first thing, was like, "Can I play that?" Then when I figured out how to play that after a week or so, a couple of weeks, "What tuning do I need to be in? Do I need to change the pitch of the banjo?" I finally found a setting where it would seem possible. Then once I had the first couple of measures or first few bars, I was like, "Well, that's possible. Let's see what happens next."

I just started working my way through the piece, a measure at a time in no hurry, never really expecting it to all work out. I figured I was going to hit a roadblock. At a certain point, it was going to go, "Oh, I can't do that. I can't do this piece," but until that happened, I was going to keep on exploring, measure by measure, trying to figure out how to do it.

Then I did

so many rewrites of the banjo part as I figured out what was possible. The first draft was unplayable because I was trying to do so much of the piano part. It was not actually physically playable. I just kept on simplifying slowly, because I didn't want to lose anything I didn't have to lose. As I got to know it, I got to where it was viable, a version of it.

Alison Stewart: You mentioned the obstacles. What was one of the obstacles, and how did you get around it?

Béla Fleck: Range. Sometimes you can play the melody in a position, but you can't play the counterparts. Then you have to decide, "Can the melody be on the bottom, and the counterparts be on the top or in the middle? What do I have to lose here?" Some things are just-- Start at the bottom of the piano and work themselves all the way up to the top of the piano, I don't have that range. I've got three octaves, basically, to work with.

I was encouraged by the fact that there had been so many different versions of Rhapsody over the years. Even there was a harmonica version that a guy named Larry Adler did, and--

[crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: A harmonica version?

Béla Fleck: Yes. He'd go out and play it with orchestras, and Gershwin liked it quite-- He was fond of it, and the piece had been done so many different ways. I also had a secret weapon, which is that my wife Abigail went to--

Alison Stewart: Washburn?

Béla Fleck: Washburn, yes. She went to Colorado College, and there was a fellow there named Ryan Banagale or Ryan Banagale. I always say it wrong. Anyway, sorry Ryan. He wrote a book about this piece. When Abby did the commencement speech at her school and I met him, he gave me this book, it's called Arranging Gershwin. It's the history of the piece and how it's written, and then after he passed, the history of the piece after he left. It's one of the most rearranged redone pieces in the classical repertoire. There was a certain license there to explore it and try different things. Also, by then Marcus Roberts had done a very jazz version of it. Gosh, if you are on a United airplane, you might see an-

Alison Stewart: Oh gosh-

[crosstalk]

Béla Fleck: [unintelligible 00:12:11] version of it.

Alison Stewart: -yes, you do.

Béla Fleck: I wish wasn't true, but there it is.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking to Béla Fleck about his new album, Rhapsody in Blue, featuring new versions of George Gershwin's composition. The piece turns 100 today. Rhapsody in Bluegrass.

Béla Fleck: Sorry.

Alison Stewart: When did that come to you?

Béla Fleck: I still feel bad about that one. It occurred to me just-- Yes, I cringe even thinking about it. I cringed thinking about it, and I cringed when I called up Bryan Sutton, the guitar player, and said, "Would you come over and try this idea with me and see what you think?" He came over, and we started playing, and I stopped cringing. He was like, "This sounds cool. I actually think this is actually good."

One of the problems is Rhapsody is only about 18 minutes long, the orchestra version. What was going to go on this record? How was I going to get it out in time for the anniversary? Which was really important to me, even just for my own personal reasons. I wanted to get it out on 100th anniversary.

"I'm only up to 18 minutes on this record. Now, what am I going to do?" I started thinking about it, and I thought, "Earl Scruggs was born within a few weeks of the premier, his 100-year birthday. He was born on January 6th, 1924. Rhapsody was premiered on the February 12th of '24. For some reason, that gave me some extra firepower and license to explore this idea because they were happening in the same world, same airspace at least.

Anyway, we tried it out and taught it to this great band with Sierra Hull, and Michael Cleveland, Bryan Sutton, Mark Schatz, and Justin Moses, and came up with a good version of it. Now we were still only up to 30 minutes of music, which still felt short. At that point, I was starting to scramble for the clock was ticking down and how was I going to get it. It wasn't just that. The creative side was also very important to me.

Alison Stewart: Sure.

Béla Fleck: Then the idea of exploring, "Is there a blues version of this that would be fun?" Because by this point, I was proud of the bluegrass version, because it sounded like such a horrible idea. The fact that it actually sounded good was a success. I love when people have low expectations. That's been my whole career. It's like, "Oh, jazz on a banjo? Horrible idea." "Oh, it's okay."

Alison Stewart: Until it's not.

Béla Fleck: "It doesn't suck." It just has to not suck if I do it. It doesn't actually have to be good. It just has to not really suck.

Alison Stewart: I think you're selling yourself short.

Béla Fleck: The bluegrass version didn't suck, so I was pretty thrilled. Then I started trying to think about this blues version and tried some different ideas, and finally settled in on doing it with Jerry Douglas and Sam Bush, who are my old pals, but they're really blues guys. Then Victor Wooten came in and played electric bass on it too, from the Flecktones, and we came up with a different way to look at it.

When I started out, I was really trying to play the piece. I wanted to play with an orchestra, and play the piano part, and play what was written, what was created by George Gershwin. I didn't want it to be a bluegrass Orchestra thing.

Once that was done with the bluegrass version and the blues version, I felt a lot of freedom to try stuff, and explore, and mess with it. I'm glad that happened because otherwise if I had done, for instance, another classical work or even written a concerto to go with it, I wouldn't have explored the piece as much as I got to.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear that Rhapsody in Blues. Let's play it.

[Music - Béla Fleck: Rhapsody in Blue]

Alison Stewart: My guest is Béla Fleck. We're talking about his new album, Rhapsody in Blue, featuring different versions like this one. Rhapsody in Blue on the 100th anniversary of the song. What do you think these variations of Rhapsody in Blue reveal about the original version and about the composition?

Béla Fleck: I think it just reveals that he wrote some great tunes. I think George Gershwin, first and foremost, just wrote great tunes. Also, I love the do-it-yourself thing about George Gershwin, that he was a guy who was like, "You want a piano concerto? I think I can do that," blah, blah, blah. Three weeks later, Rhapsody in Blue, a concerto in F. You wanted to write something that incorporated jazz and black music? "Oh, I'll go down to Charleston and study it, check out the scene, and come back with this piece, or with Porgy and Bess, or things like that, pop songs. It was just like, "Tell me what you want. I'll do it. I can do anything."

I think he was very confident and very able, but he also did it his own way, and so he's one of those guys. I relate to that, because with the banjo there's a lot of areas that haven't been mapped or it hasn't been played in certain situations. I have to figure it out. I'm always trying to figure it out. I try to be confident that it'll work out, and often it does, but you have to believe. You have to just go, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I don't know how to do this. I'm going to figure it out," and you figure out something.

Alison Stewart: Yes, the not knowing how to do is how you figure it out. It's a trial and error.

Béla Fleck: Exactly, but it also creates a different final product than a person. If you say, "Let's get someone to write a concerto," and you get someone who writes concertos all day long, then it's going to be more of the type of concerto we expect to hear. If you get someone who's never done one, they may do something that is a little different, and it'll have strengths and weaknesses based on that. That's my world as I'm usually trying to figure that out, and I win and lose because of that.

Alison Stewart: You're listening to my conversation with Béla Fleck about his new album, Rhapsody in Blue, which is out today on the 100th anniversary of the premiere of Gershwin's original. After the break, Fleck will play an unrecorded and unreleased Gershwin composition written specifically for, wait for it, banjo, which Béla Fleck discovered in the Library of Congress archives. This is All Of It.

[MUSIC]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Today is the 100th anniversary of the premier of Rhapsody in Blue, right here in New York City. To mark the centennial, banjo virtuoso, Béla Fleck, is releasing an album of new variations on the composition. The album also features other work by Gershwin, including a piece written for banjo, never before recorded or released. Here's more of my conversation with Béla Fleck.

The album features a piece titled Unidentified, which George Gershwin wrote for the banjo.

Where did this composition come from? What condition was it in when you found it?

Béla Fleck: Yes, so my friend, and Abby's school partner, Ryan came to the rescue here. He came to Nashville where we did the first premiere of me playing Rhapsody with the orchestra. Afterwards, we were talking, and again, he's the person who wrote the book about Rhapsody. He asked me, "What else are you going to do with the piece?" I told him about the bluegrass version, and that was thinking about the blues version. I had been thinking also about some solo piano stuff of Gershwin's including Realtor Ripples, which I also ended up recording. Just really cool solo piano music, very much in a ragtime world, right?

Anyway, he thought about that, and a few weeks later, he got in touch with me, said, "Hey, I was snooping around the Library of Congress and I found a Gershwin banjo tune." What it was was one page of music, handwritten by George Gershwin, no chords written in, just the single lines, occasional chords written in the second part where he wanted particular voicings but he knew what chords were so he didn't need to write them down except in these spots. It was just basically a simple ragtime tune with a couple of Gershwiny quirks.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear it, you're going to perform it for us.

Béla Fleck: All right let's see how I do.

[MUSIC - Béla Fleck: Unidentified]

Alison Stewart: That was Unidentified by George Gershwin performed by Béla Fleck. It's on his new album, Rhapsody in Blue. Before your performance, you mentioned Realtor Ripples, a ragtime piece that Gershwin composed in 1916 for piano. What made you want to record this one?

Béla Fleck: Oh, I just liked it. Sometimes you hear a piece and you go, "I'd like to know how that works. I'd like to be inside that piece seeing how it works," and it was catchy. I just liked it. Sometimes you hear stuff, and you go, "Well, that's nice, but I'm not attracted to it," but I was attracted to that one right from the beginning. I'm pretty sure my uncle sent me that one first, my uncle, Steve.

Alison Stewart: Uncle Steve.

Béla Fleck: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I'll come back to Uncle Steve.

Béla Fleck: Steven Ryan--

Alison Stewart: Steven Ryan?

Béla Fleck: Yes, so dedicated to those guys it is.

Alison Stewart: Well, let's hear Realtor Ripples.

[MUSIC - Béla Fleck: Realtor Ripples]

Alison Stewart: I love that it sounds like he's talking to you.

Béla Fleck: Yes.

Alison Stewart: He's telling you a story. I'm not sure what the story is, but I'm enjoying it.

Béla Fleck: Well, good, I'm glad.

Alison Stewart: Do you understand what I mean? When you were listening to it, I'm like, "Oh, and he's just finished that sentence, and he started the next sentence, and now he's telling me the funny part, and now oh, wait, we're going to slow down and get some backstory here."

Béla Fleck: I'm with you. Sometimes people who play piano well will rush through the pieces and then the story aspect doesn't always come through but that's the mark of a great pianist, at whatever speed that it comes through. I was looking this up while we were listening because he co-wrote it with somebody. Sometimes we forget that that was a co-write with someone named Will Donaldson.

I didn't know any of this music. Again, if you're a pianist, you would know all this rap and have had a chance to get it under your fingers. For me, it was new, and I think I played it slower than most people play it. People like to go [vocalization].

Alison Stewart: Oh, yes.

Béla Fleck: I took it a little bit more evocative partly because I didn't have as much time to learn it, but partly because I liked it that way.

Alison Stewart: Yes. I also was picturing dancers. I was picturing people and finery. It was almost like a promenade on a warm day, I don't know, that's where my brain was as I hear that track.

Béla Fleck: I'm with you.

Alison Stewart: Today is the 100th anniversary of Rhapsody In Blue and you're releasing the album today. Is there any plan to perform your album live?

Béla Fleck: I'm going to be playing with the Bluegrass Band. Whenever we're out, we play it now. It's really fun because nobody expects it, comes out of nowhere.

Alison Stewart: Oh, nice.

Béla Fleck: Yes, well, that will be over now that the record is out. Then I'm playing with, maybe 8 or 10 symphonies over the course of the year. I'll be playing the piano part, including Cleveland, which is exciting since they're one of the top cats. Then I'll be playing it here in New York on the fourth of May, at Carnegie Hall. Well, there's that. That would be a big deal.

Alison Stewart: Yes, Carnegie Hall.

Béla Fleck: Well, that, and the Bluegrass Band will be there. When I say the Bluegrass, again, I'm talking about these-- every single person in the band should be mentioned every time because they're all stars in their own right. I'm sure we'll be playing it. We'll be playing the orchestra version with a great Orchestra led by Eric Jacobson of the Knights and other orchestras.

Alison Stewart: Oh, nice.

Béla Fleck: Bruce Hornsby will be there, we'll be doing some stuff, Zakir Hussain will be there, Anat Cohen will be there, and we'll be doing some duets of different kinds, but the big thing is the Rhapsody and the excitement of getting to play that piece in that room for me.

Alison Stewart: The name of the album is Rhapsody In Blue. It dropped today featuring new versions of George Gershwin's composition, it is from Béla Fleck. You're going to play us out.

Béla Fleck: Okay.

Alison Stewart: Béla, thank you so much for coming to the studio.

Béla Fleck: My pleasure. [MUSIC - Béla Fleck]

Alison Stewart: That was Béla Fleck. His new album Rhapsody in Blue is out today on the 100th anniversary of Gershwin's original composition. In the spirit of adaptation and Centennials, we're launching the 2024 edition of a public song project today. Stick around for more info about this year's installment of the listener-sourced songbook. It'll happen near the end of the show today.

You can find out how you can get involved alongside musicians like Béla Fleck, or you can go right now to wnyc.org/publicsongproject. Coming up next, we'll dig deeper into the legacy of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue with more musicians drawing on the composition for new projects.

 

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