[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. To continue our conversation about Lincoln Center's, American Songbook series, we turn now to actor, dancer, singer, and Academy Award winner Ariana DeBose, who'll be making her Lincoln Center debut. This Saturday night, she's headlining a concert where Ariana will share her take on Dionne Warwick, Ray Charles, Abba, and her buddy Lin-Manuel Miranda. The show is titled Authenticity.

Authentic is a great word to describe DeBose who brings her full self to every project, whether hosting the Tonys or embodying a bullet in Hamilton, or playing the iconic role that earned her an Oscar, Anita in West Side Story. She is not resting on her loyals, she's not resting, period. In addition to the upcoming concert, Ariana can be seen starring in the new series of Schmigadoon, which drops today on Apple TV+, and she's joining the Marvel Cinematic Universe as well as voicing a Disney character. Authenticity will begin on Saturday at 7:30 PM at the newly renovated David Geffen Hall. Tickets are on sale now, and Ariana is in studio with us. Welcome. It is really nice to meet you.

Ariana DeBose: It's so nice to meet you. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Let's just do the sort of "Oh my gosh, I can't believe this is my life," question. What does it mean to you to be singing at Lincoln Center?

Ariana DeBose: Oh, it's amazing. Literally, I feel like Lincoln Center is just a marvel. It has such a majestic quality, and it's one of those cornerstones of New York City and it has such a varied history, of course. If anybody knows anything about the history--

Alison Stewart: San Juan Hill, yes.

Ariana DeBose: San Juan Hill, history of West Side Story, et cetera, et cetera. It's also been such a home and a refuge for the arts in a way. It's a real honor for me. A fun fact, I made my New York City debut at Alice Tully Hall which essentially is the renovated Geffen Hall. I was in the ensemble of a show or a version of Stephen Sondheim's company that starred Patti LuPone and Neil Patrick Harris.

It was literally star-studded with everyone. I think Stephen Colbert was in this production, and I was just chilling in the ensemble, pushing people around on couches and dancing in a yellow nighty. That was, I can't even remember, maybe 2011 potentially, or even earlier than that, but cut to now being a headliner it's something really special to me, and I'm really honored by it.

Alison Stewart: What's something from those early days that you still take with you or that you still use, from those early days as a company player?

Ariana DeBose: Oh, be present. I don't actually believe in small parts, there are no small parts. That's why I love ensemble work because you're always contributing to the environment and your main characters, quote-unquote, "If you aren't giving the energy, that they need to feel like they are in the moment that they are in, something's not quite right." I really believe in the contributions of the entire ensemble, and I still function that way. Anita in West Side Story, she's technically a supporting character, but if she's not there, if she's not giving the full energy that you need from that character, then the other characters in the great Baton Pass that is West Side Story, they don't get to their final destination, if that makes sense. So I still very much function the way that I always have.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Theater is a team sport.

Ariana DeBose: Absolutely, and there's no I in team. Like I said, you may have a headliner, but if you don't have all the other parts around you working, none of it works.

Alison Stewart: When you were thinking about your set list for this big event, for this big gig, what was a song you knew you had to have on the set list?

Ariana DeBose: Oh, my goodness. That's a really great question. Oh, and I don't know if I can really choose one.

Alison Stewart: What's today's choice? [laughs]

Ariana DeBose: Oh my God. Today's choice. You know what, today's choice I think I really wanted to do-- I love Judy Garland. I just think there's something quite majestic about-- That's my word du jour today I've said it twice, majestic, about her sound. It is just so raw. We do an ode to Judy, but then it's mixed with some Celine Dion-Tina-ish vibes. That's the name of my game. I like to mash things up, if that makes any sense. I take a couple different songs and I see how they work together to tell the same story. I'm excited for people to see what I've done with the Judy-Celine-Tina thing.

Alison Stewart: Susanna Hoffs, who's the co-founder of the Bangles, was here a couple days ago and she's got a new album of covers coming out. I asked her what her philosophy was about covers, and she talked about inhabiting the character, the narrator like an actor does.

Ariana DeBose: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: Do you feel that?

Ariana DeBose: I do. The way that I approach music, every song is different, first and foremost, and that's like a natural assumption. I approach it as an actor because the words are king and they actually tell you how to make the music. I don't make the same vocal choices for every song. I think some vocalists have the singer's toolbox and they're like, "I've got this riff for this moment and this riff for that moment." That's not really how I function. I'm not the greatest riffer in the world. I focus on like singing the song and making vocal choices that are appropriate to the lyric and to what this character is feeling because every song has a different story to tell, if that makes sense.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Ariana DeBose. Authenticity will happen Saturday at 7:30 PM at David Geffen Hall at Lincoln Center. It's part of Lincoln Center's American Songbook series. Let's listen to one of the songs she performed in a little preview of the concert for Lincoln Center. This is your take on Alanis Morissette's, Hand In My Pocket.

[Playing Hand In My Pocket by Alanis Morissette cover by Ariana DeBose]

[music]

I feel drunk, but I'm sober

I'm young and I'm underpaid

I'm tired, but I'm working, yeah

I care, but I'm restless

I'm here, but I'm really gone

I'm wrong and I'm sorry, baby

And what it all comes down to, yeah

Is that everything's gonna be quite alright

'Cause I've got one hand in my pocket

And the other one is flicking a cigarette

And what it all comes down to, yeah

Is that I haven't got it all figured out just yet

'Cause I've got one hand in my pocket

And the other one is giving a peace sign

Alison Stewart: That's Ariana DeBose. When you hear it stripped down with just voice and piano, what's special about the way that song is written, especially since you've to figure it out, tackle it, dismantle it, put it back together, add your frosting on top?

[laughter]

Ariana DeBose: I love that. I love that you call it frosting. I feel like, like you said, when you strip it down and you take all the other stuff away from it, when Alanis sings that song, it's one thing, and especially, given the time that the song was born from her, it has a very different meaning. Then when I really just honed in on what the lyric was saying and how it potentially applied to my life and the moment that I was in I've gone through a lot in a short amount of time. I'd never expected to win an Oscar. A lot of people like to ask lots of different questions and like, "Oh my God, how are you? What's your life like? It's shiny, it's all the things."

I think the lyric really struck me, I was like, "Oh, yes, I'm all those things." That's good. There's still hope in it. When I sing it I do find the joy in it, the joy in being many things. The joy in allowing a little bit of sadness, a little bit of being overwhelmed, tossed into the joy of having opportunity and the joy of having the chance to go out and actually do what I love or just the beautiful thing that it is when someone asks you a question and you make eye contact and you feel like you're actually being heard potentially for the first time. All of that can be encompassed in this lyric that nobody really thought that that's what someone was singing about.

Yet when I do it, that's what I'm singing about. I love that.

Alison Stewart: Authenticity is the name of the concert. Why was that the right word? Why is that a touchstone for this show?

Ariana DeBose: Well, it's not only a touchstone for the show, it's a touchstone for me. I think that I would say my mission statement for my life is to walk through it authentically. I choose to live out loud and on purpose and find the truth in the honesty of who I am in each moment. Well, it can be very challenging sometimes because you can come in and be like, I have to be Ariana DeBose today and yay, and also like, oh my God, I might feel not great, but I walk through the world and I acknowledge both things.

Authenticity with this show has allowed me to not only stand in my power as a vocalist, as a storyteller, as a dancer, as an actor, it also allows me the opportunity to share some things with the audience that I have never necessarily felt comfortable with, or the opportunity to share some instances or experiences that it just wasn't time for me to share before, but now I feel comfortable and ready to do that because those experiences and these stories that I want to share with people, they are part of my authenticity. They're part of the fabric of who I am and why I choose to live an authentic life, if that makes sense.

Alison Stewart: Yes, of course. Ariana, one interviewer asked you about some of the best advice you'd ever been given, and one of the things you said was to stay you, even as this wave of fame has just come across you to stay you. What's something you do on a regular to stay you?

Ariana DeBose: I sleep. I know that's a silly answer, but I think sleep has become my best friend because it allows me to stay grounded. It allows me to actually have a clear mind. [laughs] If I'm functioning on four hours, good luck to anybody trying to ask me a question. You know what I'm saying? That, and also like, I try to call my friends. I try to touch base. I'm a very busy person. I'm grateful for all the busyness around me, but I really try to touch base with those who are nearest and dearest to me, because just hearing their voices and hearing about someone else's life, then the nitty-gritty and the little details of everything I need to worry about, it just makes me feel more human because life is not just about you, it's about the people that you share life with.

Alison Stewart: Sometimes when you get to a certain position, people do not like to tell you no.

Ariana DeBose: That's right.

Alison Stewart: Or do not like to tell you that color's not for you. Do you have that person?

Ariana DeBose: [laughs] I have several of those people in my life.

Alison Stewart: Keep them.

Ariana DeBose: Oh, they're not going anywhere. Again, that's part of how you keep yourself grounded. I don't enjoy yes people, but I've never enjoyed yes people. I'm not in the business of being told that everything I'm doing is great. That's not the point of any of it. I'm an artist. When you're making art, you're supposed to be bold and da da da da da da. You're supposed to make people think. Making bold choices allows people to have conversation and da da da da.

The same when I'm like, "Oh, I really like this dress," and they're like, "Sis, the dress is great, but maybe it's just not for your body type." Okay, well. Then my next question is, well, why can't I just get some good alterations? Can we just like really work on this?" The answer is, yes, and also, do you really want to walk in the world with that dress on? Then the choice at the end of the day is still mine. I own all those choices, but I keep the people around me that ask the question of whether that is actually what you want to do or not.

Alison Stewart: Do you understand how people go off track now that you've seen it upfront?

Ariana DeBose: Yes. I absolutely do. I have great compassion. I have not been, quote-unquote, "a celebrity" or famous for very long, but during the time that I have spent on this journey, I have more compassion for people who live their life in the spotlight than I ever have before. It is not easy, and I get it. I come from humble beginnings. My mom was a single parent and a school teacher. I'm from North Carolina, I know what it's like.

Also, it's like, I didn't go to college. I stood in the lines. I've done the thing in order to move my way up. I understand the value of hard work so it's interesting coming from that background to now having access in a way that I've never had, and I do get how people can, quote-unquote, "drink their own Kool-Aid." I get the yes guy of it all. Also, it's hard when you do feel like you have millions of eyes on you all the time and people are not always going to get it right as the person with the spotlight on you. Like, no, you're going to make mistakes.

Like I said, I have more compassion for that lived experience than I previously did. I'm like, yes, I probably was that judgemental person that was like, "Oh, why does she have to do that," you know what I mean? I think that's part of why I do focus on trying to keep myself grounded because I-- oh, man.

Alison Stewart: That's a scary place.

Ariana DeBose: It's just not easy. It's just not easy. I think with the nature of social media and when the nature of clickbait and headlines and all of this stuff, it can make it harder. If the internet was a nicer place with, I don't know, a lack of extremist realness going on, then maybe it would be easier and people would, I don't know, go out in the world and I don't know, I don't want to say live a little larger, but I do think when there's such a tendency for negativity and to tear people down all of the time, you don't end up getting folks-- you don't give them the opportunity to want to walk out in the world and spread sunshine.

I choose to try and continue to do that. That doesn't mean that it's always going to be easy, but that's the choice that I'm making, if that makes sense. Did any of that make sense? Not a clue.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: No. You got three thumbs up from the control room and they tell the truth in there, so just so you know. Important hard-putting questions, are there costume changes on Saturday?

Ariana DeBose: I'm planning on them. It's a live concert, so Lord knows if they'll actually happen, but if you followed my career at all, I do enjoy fashions. I enjoy a palazzo pant. I wear a lot of pink. I'm trying to work on that you guys, but no, we're giving a few different looks and I'm happy about that. If you're going to choose to come spend, what, potentially two hours with me, I should probably give you more than one thing to look at. You know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: Arianna DeBose is my guest. Authenticity will be this Saturday, 7:30 PM at David Geffen Hall, part of Lincoln Center's American Songbook series. We'll have more with Ariana after a real quick break. Stay with us.

[music]

You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Ariana DeBose. This Saturday, she'll be performing at Lincoln Center at David Geffen Hall. Authenticity is the name of the show. It is at 7:30 PM. Have you thought about putting out-- I'm sure you have thought about it. Will you put out any original music? Are you in the mood to make a record?

Ariana DeBose: Oh, I don't know. I've toyed with the idea. You know what's funny? Is I'm actually, despite being on this show and despite doing a show called Authenticity where it's just me for a while, I don't really like the sound of my own voice.

[laughter]

I have thought about it and I think the type of music I want to make is, I don't know, sweeping and epic. I've questioned whether or not there's space for that in the music industry, you know what I mean, but I think if the time is right, one day I'll do it.

Alison Stewart: Just might have to do it for yourself.

Ariana DeBose: That part. Honestly, I very clearly am blazing my own trail. Like I said earlier today, I'm no longer concerned with trying to fit in anymore. I'm just doing me. I like that, and some other people seem to too. When you make music, when you do anything, you should do it for yourself.

Alison Stewart: Good. That's the path to staying sane by the way. Do you ever get nervous performing live still?

Ariana DeBose: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: Yes?

Ariana DeBose: I think if you're not nervous, you're probably not ready or you don't care as much as you maybe should. At least that's how it's worked for me. Honestly, Authenticity came from the space of like, "Oh, I feel like I'm developing a little bit of stage fright, I need to get over that." I'm a little scared of it, so what's the best way for me to achieve this? Let's go back and do a show and let me tell my truth. That's what we're doing.

Alison Stewart: Before you were on Broadway, before you were in the movies, you were on So You Think You Can Dance.

Ariana DeBose: [laughs] Yes, I was.

Alison Stewart: We have a little clip of one of the early introductions of you from the show. Let's take a listen.

[Video playing]

[cheers]

[music]

Female Speaker: Contemporary dancer Ariana is a genuine country girl.

Ariana DeBose: I'm just a girl from North Carolina whose family has a farm. I ride a tractor with my grandpa and this is really embarrassing, I'm talking about a tractor. Growing up on a farm makes this experience even more exciting because it's the best of both worlds really.

[Video stopped]

Alison Stewart: Oh my God, I rode a tractor. I'm horrified [laughs] in a great way.

Alison Stewart: Oh, it's so sweet though. How old were you then?

Ariana DeBose: 18. I was still in high school. I was finishing out high school, literally senior year. I auditioned the week of my finals. My mother was thrilled.

Alison Stewart: Oh, boy. [laughs]

Ariana DeBose: I was a baby. I knew nothing. Oh my gosh. That was quite a time. As you can hear from that little clip. She sounded like that.

Alison Stewart: There was a video of a tractor and you are-- I did not know you were a farm girl until I went digging.

Ariana DeBose: Yes, my family owned a farm at the time. I still spent time in the country. I'm a country girl. Now, [chuckles] in the interest of authenticity, I think you have to realize reality television is about casting and it's about storylines.

Alison Stewart: Of course.

Ariana DeBose: It's about making a story where perhaps there isn't one.

Alison Stewart: Understood. They call them Frankenbites.

Ariana DeBose: Frankenbites.

Alison Stewart: They take a Frankenstein bites. They'll take part of one answer and another answer and stick them together to create the storyline they would like.

Ariana DeBose: I think my time on that show was a little bit of a Frankenbite.

Alison Stewart: A little bit of that.

Ariana DeBose: Now, all of that is true. I am from North Carolina. My family had a farm. I spent Christmases on the farm. Certain times we did ride a tractor, but I would probably say the essence of that clip is a little shinier than what it may have appeared to be, if that makes sense.

Alison Stewart: I like that we cleared that up.

Ariana DeBose: In the interest of authenticity, you can't stand in your power and say what you see is what you get, and then not call it out when you see it. There you go.

Alison Stewart: Did you ever have the accent?

Ariana DeBose: Absolutely. Oh my gosh. When I'm on the phone with my grandmother-- maybe not that accent, but a North Carolina accent? Yes. When I'm on the phone with my grandmother now, it comes out. When I moved to New York at 18, 19 years old, I still had a twang and then very quickly realized if it would go away, I'd probably be a little more neutral and have a better opportunity to get work. I also got tired of being like, "Oh my God, where are you from? You talk like this, or you talk like this." I can't even do it anymore, unless I'm unprompted. I had a bit of a North Carolina thing going on. Again, authenticity. You're welcome.

Alison Stewart: Schmigadoon second season premieres today on Apple TV+. Tell us about your role in it.

Ariana DeBose: This season's a bit darker. We've moved along, we're in Sweeney Todd territory, little Chicago vibes. '70s, '80s musicals, which is great. I love that time period. It's a beautiful, beautiful and edgy work came out of that time period. This season I'm playing a very different character from Season 1, which Season 1 was Emma Tate schoolmarm. She's giving sound of music, she's giving Mary Poppins. Now, this season we are giving a version of the MC that's a little, edgy is a good word. Sexy. Dare I say she's a bit sexy.

It's fun. I wanted to do something different. Cinco Paul was like, "Great, let's do that." Then he also wrote me this gorgeous, gorgeous song that plays later into the season. He came to me and he was like, "I think it might be one of the best songs I've ever written and it would be an honor if you'd sing it in the show." It's one of those tunes that it's a simple melody with a powerful lyric, and it was a privilege to sing it. I can tell you that.

Alison Stewart: Alan Cumming is also in Schmigadoon.

Ariana DeBose: Yes, he is. No pressure. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Of course. He played the MC in Cabaret in London and in the Broadway revival. Were you able to have any interaction with him?

Ariana DeBose: Actually, our paths did not cross this season, which honestly was probably a blessing in disguise because as I've just told you, I still get a little nervous. If I had to MC in front of the person who is arguably the MC in the canon for my generation especially, I probably would've wanted to throw up. I love Alan and he was just like, "You're doing great, honey," and that was enough for me.

Alison Stewart: Oh, he's hilarious.

Ariana DeBose: He's best.

Alison Stewart: He's hilarious. Whenever he's on the show, we always happen to be ready on the dump button.

Ariana DeBose: Oh, absolutely. I'm not surprised.

Alison Stewart: In the best way, Alan, if you're listening.

Ariana DeBose: Speaking of authenticity, that is somebody who does not censor himself and I love to see it.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Ariana DeBose. Authenticity is playing this Saturday at David Geffen Hall at 7:30 PM. I just want to ask about a couple of other [unintelligible 00:25:06]. Like you said, you don't rest.

Ariana DeBose: I know.

Alison Stewart: You know what? It's great that you're seizing your moment. This is important.

Ariana DeBose: Yes, it's good. I think there's something about like if you find yourself in a moment of momentum, keep going. Also, I try to choose wisely. I don't say yes to things that I don't believe in or don't connect with. That's not the name of my game either.

Alison Stewart: In Disney, the newest film The Wish, you're playing an original character, Asha. How would you describe Asha?

Ariana DeBose: Let's see. Asha is-

Alison Stewart: Asha. [crosstalk].

Ariana DeBose: -all good. Asha, she is from this town in Spain called Rosas. I think Asha she's ambitious. She loves the people that she's surrounded by. She loves her community. She genuinely wants more for them. It's kind of the story of when you're living a beautiful life and then suddenly you see something for how it actually is, and you can't unsee it, and then what do you do with that after the fact? I think that's a really beautiful thing to model, especially for young people. It's like, there are steps you can take and you got to keep fighting the good fight. If it doesn't go your way once, what are you going to do next? Are you going to try again, or are you just going to sit back and be like, "I can live with this"? You have choices in life, and I love that.

Alison Stewart: When was that moment for you or a moment like that for you?

Ariana DeBose: I've had multiple, but I think-- Oh, gosh, which one do you talk about? There came a time in my career where I had to choose if I wanted to keep going down the track I was safely in. I was doing great work as a member of the ensemble, and I loved that. I was like, I think I have more to offer. I started trying to put myself forth for bigger roles. It wasn't an immediate yes, and many doors were slammed in my face. I was like, "okay, but I'm going to keep going because I really think I have something more to give."

I think that's why they say show business is not for the faint of heart because you will get a million nos. I think because of the moment I was in, I was very well established and I had plenty of work opportunity. When you try to tell the people who know you really well, "I want to try for something new," it's not easy to change those minds. When you constantly are trying to change minds of people that you do know, that's when you're like, "Wait, do you not see this for me? Oh, you don't see this for me?" Now I got to go find a different avenue.

Alison Stewart: Good to know.

Ariana DeBose: Good to know. That's all right. I don't judge it. I'm not mad at it, but this is not going to be the thing, so I got to keep going. That means I'm going to be in new territory, which is just as uncomfortable. There were a series of moments like that in succession for me to answer your question.

Alison Stewart: You got a MCU part coming up. The thing I want to make sure we get in before you have to roll, you teamed up with Bonnie Milligan who is terrific for a duet from the upcoming show, Female Troubles, a musical about two women in 19th century England hoping to secure an abortion. Let's listen to it a little bit and then we can talk about it on the other side.

[Playing A Woman Knows from Female Troubles by Bonnie Milligan and Ariana DeBose]

[music]

And we know our hearts better than anyone at all

The way a river knows which way it flows

And we know our minds better than anyone at all

No maning road for weeks

No man, not a car [unintelligible 00:28:49]

Can change the true of our love

She can't be reconciled

She must be free

Free to have her child

If and when the time is right

And if the time is right

When the time is right

A woman knows

She knows

Alison Stewart: Oh, love it. I feel like I need to applaud.

Ariana DeBose: [laughs] Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Obviously you're someone who's interested in using your platform and your voice with activism, advocacy, reaching out to people. What is something that you really-- Obviously women's rights, you care deeply about. What is something you really care deeply about that you really like to spend the next minute on public radio talking about?

Ariana DeBose: In addition to women's rights, I also champion homeless and sexually trafficked youth. I sit on the international board of Covenant House, who has been servicing young people who find themselves facing these very things every day. I think that young people are not their circumstances. It's just very important to me to champion courses, organizations that give young people the opportunity, the building blocks to build the life of their dreams just because you find yourself not being able to find shelter. Do you know what I mean? That should not be held against you. If you want to put in the work and you want to go out and you want to change what your world looks like, go do it. How can we help you? I'm very into that.

I believe in our young people. Our young people are going to change the world. I just firmly I'm behind them. I'm here to support them. I'm here to uplift their voices, and because they were people who did that for me, if that makes sense. Get into Covenant House in the way of women's rights and reproductive rights. I'm also a board member of AS4 and I was in an organization founded by a group of women that includes Martha Plimpton, and we help grassroots organizations because I believe that you should be able to make choices for your own body if that makes sense.

Alison Stewart: It makes sense. [laughs] Ariana DeBose will be at David Geffen Hall Lincoln Center Saturday at 7:30 PM. The name of the show is Authenticity part of Lincoln Center's American Songbook series. Thank you for spending time with us.

Ariana DeBose: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.