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Alison: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thanks for spending part of the day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on-demand, I'm grateful you are here and I'm especially grateful if you've made a donation to WNYC for our Winter Pledge Drive, your support really matters. On today's show, actor Hong Chau, she's had two recent breakout roles in The Menu and The Whale, the Latter which earned her an Oscar nomination she joins us.

The new thriller Inside stars, Willem Dafoe as an art thief stuck in a New York City penthouse after a heist goes wrong. He'll be our guest alongside the film's director and a curator who served as a consultant for all the art scene in the film. We will talk to Mandy Walker, the Oscar-Nominated Cinematographer for Elvis. If she wins she could break a gender barrier for this category. That's the plan, so let's get this started with a voice that you are very familiar with.

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For the last two decades, public radio listeners had become familiar with the voice of Ari Shapiro. He's covered national security, White House politics, and international news from London. Then about eight years ago he became one of the hosts of NPR's flagship news show All Things Considered. As if there were enough the award-winning journalist can use his voice beyond the radio, the man can sing. In April, Ari joins actor Alan Cumming at The Carlyle for Och & Oy!: A Considered Cabaret. Let's take a listen to a promo for the show.

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Before Ari Shapiro kicks off his book tour for his memoir, The Best Strangers in the World, which Lands on March 22nd. Ari Shapiro, welcome back.

Ari: Hi Alison. Thank you so much for having me.

Alison: Hey listeners, are you a loyal listener of All Things Considered? What questions you have for Ari Shapiro, or maybe you have been to one of his shows with Pink Martini or Alan Cumming? You can let us know what we're all in for. Give us a call, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or hit us up on social media at AllOfItWNYC. Ari, last time we spoke, you were preparing for your first solo cabaret show Behind the Mic, but unlike Behind the Mic, this show is a two-man cabaret. How did this partnership with Alan Cumming evolve?

Ari: We had done a few live events over the years where I interviewed him on stage about his book. He made a guest appearance at my solo cabaret. As we were leaving the stage from one of those events he said, "We always have such a good rapport, we should make a show together." I stopped and I turned to him and I said, "Alan, don't joke about that because I will absolutely take you up on it." He said, "No, I'm not joking."

Then the next morning he sent me one of those morning after texts that was like, I meant what I said, let's figure out this show. We spent one weekend at his place in New York figuring out what it would be, one weekend at my place in DC, and then the next time we saw each other was opening night. For the last couple of years, we've been doing it all over the country, but this is our first time doing it in New York City and at the legendary Carlyle, I couldn't be more excited about it.

Alison: It is such a great room. It's a really intimate room.

Ari: It's a place where these legends have performed. I saw Elaine Stritch there before she passed away. A friend of mine was telling me about his experience seeing Eartha Kitt there. It's like one of these-- I think the word iconic is overused, but in this case, it deserves to be called an iconic venue.

Alison: What are three words you would use to describe Alan Cumming as a collaborator?

Ari: Joyful, mischievous, and trustworthy. People have asked, is it intimidating to share the stage with somebody as accomplished as him? It's actually the opposite because I know that if I jump he'll catch me. I know that if the train is going off the tracks he knows how to get it back on the rails. The last time we talked I was doing the solo cabaret show which was really vulnerable and scary and terrifying in all kinds of ways. Having Alan share the stage with me it's a completely different experience because we're just two friends having a great time.

Alison: He is mischievous though, I will say that having had him as a guest a couple of times live.

Ari: Wildly so, intensely so, and that's what makes it so fun. The show follows the same structure, but it's never exactly the same every night. We don't script it word for word. We always rib each other a little bit and keep each other on our toes. It's just the most fun thing I can imagine doing. He's become this like older brother, mentor friend figure in my life who I just love spending time with, I'm so grateful for.

Last weekend I was actually at his house up in the Catskills and I got COVID from him. Now I'm well and I can go out on my book tour and do my run of shows at the Carlyle without having to worry about COVID. I'm great-- actually sorry, fact-check. I got it from his husband. Alan did not get COVID, but I've now got peak antibodies, so I'm feeling great.

Alison: Ari Shapiro is our guest. He is going to be at the Carlyle in a residency with Alan Cumming. It's going to happen in April. The title is Och & Oy!-- I love saying that. A Considered Cabaret, what's the origin of the title?

Ari: We actually crowdsourced it on social media. That first weekend that I mentioned that we were spending at his house in New York. We posted a photo of the two of us and we said, "If hypothetically speaking, we were going to create a show together, what should we call it?" A bunch of people made suggestions that were about like the A-Team A and A.

A bunch of people made suggestive suggestions involving Alan's last name, which he's heard plenty of times before, but we liked Och & Oy! because he's Scottish, I'm Jewish, he's the Och, I'm the Oy. We told the person who suggested it on social media that if they ever come to one of our shows, we will give them comp tickets and put them on the guest list, but that person has never claimed it.

Alison: Still out there.

Ari: Still out there.

Alison: Still out there. As you said, you spent a weekend at his place working on this, a weekend at your place working on this, and then you were on stage. What aspects of the show have evolved since that first performance?

Ari: The first performance was before the pandemic.

Alison: Wow.

Ari: We haven't actually changed the lineup of songs, but the stories and the way we tell them have changed. I think it's gotten a bit sharper, it's gotten less flabby. We figured out which jokes work best and which ones fall flat. There were some current events references that we've swapped out and replaced, but every time we do it we discover little new things and new moments and we make ourselves laugh. Hopefully, we make the audience laugh, but as long as we're making ourselves laugh I think we're on the right track.

Alison: Of course, there are songs. It is a Cabaret. Let's listen to one tune from the show. I have to give people a visual. You guys are both in black pants and sleeveless buttoned-down shirts. As you sing you get really into each other's space.

Ari: Yes. This is our encore. I think, yes. This is our encore number, and it actually references a story that I tell at the very beginning of the show. When we come back out and do this is the encore it's like coming full circle.

Alison: It's spoken.

Ari: There's also a smell of vision element to it, but I'm not going to give away that aspect of the experience.

Alison: This is Alan and Ari with Total Eclipse of the Heart.

Turn around

Every now and then I get a little bit lonely

And you're never coming 'round

Turn around

Every now and then I get a little bit tired

Of listening to the sound of my tears

Turn around

Every now and then I get a little bit nervous

That the best of all the years have gone by

Turn around

Every now and then I get a little bit terrified

And then I see the look in your eyes

Turn around, bright eyes

Evеry now and then I fall apart

Turn around-- sing with us-- bright eyes

Evеry now and then I fall apart

And I need you now tonight

And I need you more than ever

And if you only hold me tight

Ari: You can't resist singing along. Everybody wants to join it.

Alison: You told me to sing.

Ari: It's great. You get people's hands in the air, they're waving, they turn on the flashlight on their phones. It's a whole moment.

Alison: You can check it out April 5th through the 15th at the Carlyle. I'm talking to Ari Shapiro. Ari, how does the audience's energy affect the lineup? Because as you said, you have a stable of songs, but nothing's really scripted.

Ari: Yes. We open the show so we have this big medley that like kicks off the whole thing, and then we sit down and I say, "We should start by answering the question that's on everybody's mind." Alan says, "Oh," and gives an answer that is not safe for work or for public radio. Judging on the response to that answer we know what kind of an audience we have and the rest of the show follows accordingly.

Alison: Very smart, very smart. Hey, let's talk to Paulette calling in from Westchester. Hi, Paulette.

Paulette: Hey, Alison. Hey, Ari. This is a huge honor. Thanks for taking my call. Ari, I saw the show at the Pines on Fire Island last year. Wondering if you were going to do an encore performance, please say yes.

Ari: At the Pines, we had an extremely special surprise guest.

Paulette: Yes, it's awesome.

Ari: Because the show always climaxes with a story about Chita Rivera, this legend of stage and screen who originated roles in West Side Story in Chicago, in Kiss of the Spider Woman. We always tell this Chita Rivera story and then segue into a song from Chicago, nowadays. We didn't tell the audience in Fire Island that Chita was going to be making a surprise guest appearance. After this huge build up she stepped out on stage, and I have never felt a wave of energy, a force field of enthusiasm quite like that.

Paulette, you might have been one of the only women in the audience-- I'm assuming you're a woman. You might have been one of the only women in the audience that night. I'm so glad you were able to experience this Fire on Pines moment. Look, if Chita Rivera would like to make another surprise special appearance with us at the Carlyle, she has a standing invitation. Also, she has a book out that she's about to be promoting, which I know because she and I share the same editor. Our paths have crossed Chita and I more than once.

Alison: You are a radio professional because that's now my segue to your forthcoming memoir, The Best Strangers in the World. When you were thinking about a memoir, a lot of journalists write memoirs. What did you want to accomplish with this? What was the writing process?

Ari: I started writing it late in 2020 when we were all so isolated, and I think the pandemic was wearing on a lot of us. It wasn't until I was well into the writing process that I realized what I was actually exploring through these essays was the idea of connection, and commonality, and shared experience. I think subliminally I was writing that because it was what we were all craving in that moment. Now that I step back and look at it as a finished book I think--

What I'm trying to do is in the face of all of these very powerful and well-funded interests that tell us how different we are from one another and how much we have to gain by seeing each other as enemies. I'm trying to draw connective lines between us and make the foreign seem a little bit less strange, make the unfamiliar feel a bit more relatable. I do that by telling the stories of the people I've met through my journalism who I will never forget and who have shaped the person I am. On the flip side exploring the ways in which the person I am has shaped some of the stories that I've told.

Alison: How did you know when you were finished?

Ari: Oh, that's such a good question. I think I was told that I had to put my pencils down and stop writing, as teachers used to say way back in the day because I had never done this before. I've done radio for 20 years, so I know how that's supposed to go, but I don't know how writing a book is supposed to go. In fact, there's this experience where they send you the first pass, which is your manuscript with notes and you have a chance to make edits, and then they send you a second pass. I was like how many passes do I get? When is this over? I guess I'm now finished because there are finalized books that I'm told I can't make changes to but I'm learning as I go.

Alison: My guest is Ari Shapiro. He's a Cabaret singer. He's a radio host. He is going to be a writer-- he is a writer. The name of his forthcoming book is Best Strangers in the World. Listeners, if you're a loyal fan of All Things Considered, if you have a question for Ari Shapiro go for it, or maybe you've seen one of his shows with Pink Martini or with Alan Cumming. You can give us a little review. Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or you can hit us up on social media at AllOfItWNYC. Do we in the memoir get to know you personally? Do we hear your personal life story at all?

Ari: Yes. One of the things that as I was writing the memoir I realized is actually profoundly shaped the person I am as a journalist is that when I was a kid in Fargo, North Dakota, my brothers and I were the only Jewish kids at our elementary school. We would go from classroom to classroom with a menorah and a dreidel explaining what Hanukkah is. Then when I was eight my family moved to Portland, Oregon, and at 16 I came out of the closet and I was the only out gay student at my school. Again, I was performing these acts of translation.

What I realized as I discovered journalism was that I can through journalism be an ambassador and create those bridges with people to whom I have no personal connection beyond my journalistic interest. The skills that I built as that Jewish kid in Fargo and the gay kid in Portland, Oregon, are skills that I use today when I'm telling the stories of Venezuelan migrants going through Colombia, or a sea level rise in Senegal, or voters on a presidential campaign.

Alison: What do you think is the biggest challenge facing our business right now?

Ari: Aside from the budget cuts and just the contraction, there's so much uncertainty and there's so much instability. I guess from a business perspective I would cite that but more globally I would say the distrust in anything that doesn't affirm your pre-existing beliefs is a really deep-seated problem for media and for democracy more generally. I think listening and storytelling are powerful antidotes to that.

Alison: If someone had never heard of All Things Considered, I don't know who that would be, but if someone had never heard of it-

Ari: Can't imagine.

Alison: -can't imagine. How do you describe your job for someone who's never heard of it?

Ari: I can give the sales pitch which is that we try to capture the totality of life. In terms of my specific job what I love about it is that I wake up every day knowing that by the time I go to sleep at night, I'm going to learn about something-- I'm going to have learned about something new. Over the course of the day, I'm having conversations about politics, arts, business, science. In each of those cases, I get to follow my curiosity to ask people who are at the center of the most interesting things happening today to tell us about their lives. The idea that I get to pursue that curiosity every day in my job just feels like a gift, and it never gets old or at least it hasn't.

Alison: How do you balance the many facets of your personality? This is a thing that is debatable among journalists. Should journalists play themselves in movies?

Ari: Yes.

Alison: Can Anderson Cooper drink on New Year's Eve and still be a hard, nice person? Can you be a cabaret singer and be a trusted host?

Ari: Can I sing with Pink Martini? When I started singing with Pink Martini, I imagined feeling a tap on my shoulder and the voice of Walter Cronkite saying, "Oh, well, if you're going to sing with a band then you won't be taken seriously as a journalist." Part of what I explore in the book is the way that the people we are informed, the stories we tell, and of course, we want to pursue objectivity and we want to be a stand-in for listeners. We want to allow listeners to picture themselves in the scenario that I'm reporting from. The person I am makes a difference in the stories that I tell.

I have a chapter about covering the Pulse nightclub shooting where I dig into that pretty deeply. At the end of my experience covering that massacre, I discovered that this very vivid memory I had of going bar hopping in Orlando years earlier where I met these bartenders and became friends with them was actually a memory of Pulse nightclub. I hadn't realized that I had been there and that those bartenders were Pulse bartenders. I think as journalists we have to allow both things to be true. We don't want the story to be about us, but we also can't just put ourselves in a box and pretend that we're a cipher.

Alison: You wouldn't want that, I don't think. I think it makes stories richer.

Ari: Right, right.

Alison: I really do. I believe if somebody's doing a story about divorce and they're from a divorced family, they have a sensibility that someone who isn't from a divorced family, a sensitivity that someone else might not have. I think that sensitivity is okay. I think it's good.

Ari: How much do we lose if we say people of color shouldn't cover stories about racial justice, or people who can have children shouldn't cover stories about reproductive rights? Those enhance our abilities to tell those stories.

Alison: I think we've got time for another call. Let's talk to Ben calling in from Queens. Very interesting. Hi, Ben. Thanks for calling.

Ben: Hi, thanks for taking the call. It's great to speak with you. Ari, it's wonderful to speak with you.

Ari: Hi Ben, thanks.

Ben: What I'm sensing was I'm-- sure, absolutely. I'm very looking forward to stopping by and seeing the show. I'm a judge by day and also an actor, and I get a lot of responses from people it's odd, it's different. I had a similar concern. You just touched on it a moment ago. It really is inspirational to see somebody like you who has a professional role something that's serious and carries a lot of responsibility, but also it's clearly artistic, expressive, and performative.

Ari: I feel you, Ben, I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you. It's good to know I'm not the only one.

Alison: Judge Ben, thanks for calling in. [laughs] I love New York and I love the calls.

Ari: By the way, I also want to mention if people want to hear me talk about the book, my dear friend Benj Pasek who wrote the music to La La Land, and Dear Evan Hansen, and The Greatest Showman, and many others. Benj and I are going to be at the Streicker Center on March 22nd talking about the book, so people can come get a copy of the book. I'll sign it and they'll hear many more war stories from the field.

Alison: The name of that book is the Best Strangers in the World. Also, there's Och & Oy! at the Carlyle, April 5th through the 15th. A very busy man is Ari Shapiro. Ari, thank you for being with us.

Ari: I want to stick around for Hong Chau. I'm such a fan truly.

Alison: Me too.

Ari: It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Alison. [chuckles]

 

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