[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. Coming up on the show later this week, we'll have a couple of low-stakes, big opinion debates, including with Josh Goleman, who will join us to share why he feels so really strongly about a particular brand of seltzer, and we'll take your calls. We'll also learn more about the thrilling and dangerous sport of free diving from a new documentary called The Deepest Breath. Of course, we'll have some music, Jenny Lewis will join us. We don't have to wait to hear some great songs. Lucinda Williams will be with us later this hour. We kick it off now with Ani DiFranco.

[music - Ani DiFranco: Glass House]

Sitting in my glass house

While your ghost is sleeping down the hall

Watching the little birds fly

Kamikaze missions into the walls

Think I'm going to stay in today

Sit on the couch and watch them fall

Alison Stewart: That's Glass House from Ani DiFranco's 1998 album, Little Plastic Castle. As part of our Silver Liner Note series, we're looking back at Little Plastic Castles in honor of its 25th anniversary. The album featured 12 tracks, including her unique style, exploring topics like integrity and respect. A recent UK article about LPC's anniversary noted, "25 years on, Little Plastic Castle still stands tall among Ani DiFranco’s voluminous discography. It's light-heartedly skewering of trappings of fame, she only made herself more famous, gracing the upper reaches of the Billboard charts for the first time." Last month, she released a remastered version of the record through her label, Righteous Babes, and for the first time on vinyl. Friend of the show, our very first musical guest ever back in 2018, Ani DiFranco joins us now. So nice to see you, Ani.

Ani DiFranco: Good to see you too, Alison.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, are you a fan of Ani DiFranco? What would you like to say to her? What did you think of the album Plastic Little Castle when it first came out? How do you feel about it now? What was your favorite song or memory, or maybe you've seen Ani Perform Live? Our phone lines are open, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call up, get on the air, or you can text us through that number. Our social media is available as well at All Of It WNYC. When you released this record, you were in your mid-20s. You'd already had a whole bunch of records out before. Would you remember your hopes, your expectations for this record back then?

Ani DiFranco: I'm not much of open expectation kind of gal. Moment by moment is more my style. If anything, I have a little bit of dread when I release a record. I think at that time, that was certainly the case because, as you were saying, my star was rising, I guess. It's very much an album about fame, which was new to me and kind of scary. A lot of upsides, but a lot of downsides too. Maybe apprehension, if anything.

Alison Stewart: What was potentially scary about it, about fame, about people deciding [crosstalk] knowing you, I guess?

Ani DiFranco: Just being accessible to a very wide world of opinions and judgments. It almost sounds funny to say now in the age of social media. That was pre-social media, so it seems like cakewalk compared to maybe what the experience is now. At the time, it was pretty intense for me. I was changing up my wardrobe and my style. I was ever evolving and I was already getting a lot of pushback from listeners and fans that I was selling out, that I'd put on a dress, and that I wasn't the punk ruffian that they wanted me to be, or I wasn't the lesbian that they wanted me to be. There was a lot of criticism coming from my own tribe.

Alison Stewart: That was hard.

Ani DiFranco: It was a tumultuous time.

Alison Stewart: How did you get through it?

Ani DiFranco: Little Plastic Castle was the first album that I decided not to look at any of the media or criticism about it. I remember that as the moment when I just really deliberately turned away from all of that because it was melting my brain and making me feel real claustrophobic. If I would see my name or my face in any kind of media, I would just turn the page real quick. That's gotten me through the ensuing decades.

Alison Stewart: That seems like a really wise strategy. It seems like a really good path towards self-preservation, especially for creative people who are so in tune. You're very in tune with the energy and the world around you for the good and the bad.

Ani DiFranco: I totally would recommend it to anybody who's a public person and up to that kind of daily scrutiny. I was opening for Bob Dylan once on the other side of the world. We were in New Zealand. Maybe this is going back a decade or more, but obviously, well into his storied career. Everybody was interviewing me because they couldn't interview Bob. Everybody was talking to me about the tour. I remember doing an interview once, and the person asked me, "What is Bob's influence on you?"

Having never bought a Bob Dylan album per se, or followed him closely, I think what I said was, "His influence is just endemic or atmospheric. It's like the couch in my living room growing up." Like, "I just sat on it every day. I didn't think about it, or I didn't know the living room before the couch." Anyway, I got a call from Bob's people soon thereafter because he was upset that I called him a couch. [laughter] It was definitely admittedly not the most graceful metaphor, but I was like, "Tell Bob to just stop reading stuff about him. He's earned the right. It's okay." I was amazed to think of somebody at his point in his career opening up the Daily News and ingesting more opinions.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Ani DiFranco. We're talking about the 25th anniversary of Little Plastic Castle. Alex has called in from Prospect Heights. Hi, Alex. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Alex: Hi. Oh, my God, I'm freaking out. I can't believe I'm on the phone with Ani DiFranco. This is incredible. I just wanted to say that I remember when Little Plastic Castles came out because I had been a follower of her work before then, of your work, I should say. I'm talking to you. At the time, it was groundbreaking. I do remember that there was controversy around it, but it has so many amazing songs. They became some of my favorites, Swan Dive, As Is, just having been such a big fan for a long time. Oh, my God, I'm getting choked out. It's amazing to revisit how your music made me feel, so thank you.

Alison Stewart: Alex, thank you so much for calling in. When did you get a sense that this album was resonating with people, Ani, people like Alex?

Ani DiFranco: I guess right away. Like you said, it hit the charts, and all of that was new for me. I think it's one of my better realized song cycles, albums. It came together so it connected with more people than ever. I was just recalling to myself the other day that just before Little Plastic Castle came out, was the first time I was on NPR. I was reviewed. Once again, I was so excited, this national attention on NPR. I've been a lifelong listener. I was very excited and I tuned in from my living room in Buffalo, and it was actually a review of an earlier album, Not a Pretty Girl. The reviewer was not altogether complimentary and didn't get it, didn't feel it, and it was devastating. It was devastating to me. That was the kind of thing I was acclimating to. You put yourself out there and if you're really lucky, people pay attention, but then that also sucks [laughs] because they're paying attention and they all are thinking thoughts.

Alison Stewart: As you learn, not everything is for everyone, which is something you learn as you get older.

Ani DiFranco: That's true. Exactly, yes. I'm not for everyone, but like the caller, the gal that just called, those are the moments and the responses and the connections that mean the most just the listeners who did need that record and felt it.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting, we have two similar responses. It's really interesting. Let's talk to Christine calling in from Parkridge, New Jersey. Christine, thank you for calling All Of It. You are on the air with Ani DiFranco.

Christine: I'm so thrilled. Thank you so much for taking my call. Ani, I've loved you since I was about 16 years old and I got the gift from my partner last year going to see you at Sea Hear Now. I just want you to know that your resonance in my life has not just been through me and my life and helped me coming from a family that was just bulging with toxic masculinity. I was lucky enough to have two daughters who now listen to Ani DiFranco and all these other powerful women who were inspired by you.

You've even helped to repair my relationship with my ex-husband who used to call me a BS feminist. I went to grad school and I wrote a paper called Notes from a BS Feminist, and I did actually feature some of your quotes in some of my paper. I teach English now, and you do feature in some of my lessons, particularly on women's rights and racism in the United States. I just wanted to thank you for everything.

Alison Stewart: Christine, thank you for calling in.

Ani DiFranco: I love to think of being in your classroom with you. Thank you for listening and hearing so well.

Alison Stewart: In this anniversary year, the album is being released on vinyl. Is this the first time on vinyl?

Ani DiFranco: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Tell us a little bit about the design of the vinyl of Little Plastic Castle.

Ani DiFranco: We tried to emulate the original packaging of the CD but it's vinyl, so it's bigger and better and more luscious. [laughter] We try to make sure to get it for all the audio files and the people who it's remastered to make it hit a little harder than it did back in the day. We tried to maximize the sound on the vinyl and just really prioritize that.

Alison Stewart: I actually want to play one of the tracks, As Is. It's described as a bed track on the new album. Explain that for our listeners.

Ani DiFranco: Yes. There's a few bonus tracks on this re-release and they are the bed tracks for three songs: As Is, Two Little Girls, and Gravel. What it is, is just the original live take of the song as we recorded it. Myself, the wonderful bass player Sarah Lee, and drummer Jerry Morada, and it's just us playing live in this little studio in Austin, Texas, the Congress House before any, say, re-singing of the vocal or overdubbing of any kind. It was just the original session for the song Unadorned. Then mixed by Chad Blake, who is one of my favorite mixers. I just threw these bed tracks at him and said, "Say, if nothing else happened, just mix it."

Alison Stewart: Well, let's take a listen. This is As Is from Ani DiFranco.

[ music- As Is by Ani DiFranco]

You can't hide behind social graces

So don't try, be all touchy, feely

Cause you lie in my face of all places

But I got no problem with that really

What bugs me is that you believe what you're saying

What bothers me, that you don't know how you feel

What scares me, that while you're telling me stories

You actually believe that they are real

And I've got no illusions about you, guess what I never did

When I said, when I said, "I'll take it"

Alison Stewart: That's As Is from Little Plastic Castle celebrating its 25th anniversary, it's got a vinyl release as well. I love that you can hear your fingers on the guitar strings in that jug. Why did you choose to keep that?

Ani DiFranco: I couldn't not, [laughs]. I mean, it's just me standing in a little booth, a little vocal booth with two microphones in front of me, one on my face and one on my guitar. You can't really, in that type of live recording situation, manipulate those things because if you change the guitar, you're going to change the vocal because they're happening at once and they're bleeding into each mic. It's as is [laughs], as the song says.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Looks like to Christine from Cornwall, New York. Hi, Christine. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Christine: Hi. Oh, my goodness. Ani, I just want to thank you for tremendous memories. I'm now 51 and I wanted to ask you, do you remember maybe in 1996 playing Metropol in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania?

Ani DiFranco: Wow. The name sounds familiar, but I can't say I remember it really.

Christine: That's okay. I do because I was cocktailing and it was a two-floor venue and it was packed. I wanted to say that it was all of us that worked. One of the best concert experiences, having to work one in a nightclub, where you have Perry Farrell or you have Porno for Pyros, but we had Ani DiFranco. It was so crowded upstairs, the customers were so nice and kind. It was just one of those concerts that I will never ever forget.

I wanted to say thank you and let you also know that I worked at a record store, so I probably have about 30 CDs of all different sorts that whenever they would come in, I'm like, "Oh, Ani DeFranco, I'm just about to buy this one. This one's not mine." Your music, I'm so excited for this new album and it sounded beautiful. It was just played, so I just want to thank you so much. We just had a big flood, so I'm hoping that all my Ani DiFranco CDs are still safe.

Alison Stewart: Well, Christine, here's the thing, you can go get the vinyl. I hope you're doing okay up there with the crazy weather as well. That's so interesting about Christine's observation, about the people who come to see you.

Ani DiFranco: Yes, boy, I was just thinking as she was speaking that that's-- I'm not sure if I'm even entitled to it, but it's a real big point of pride for me that everywhere that we go, the venue, workers, the promoters, the people, the staff, they all say this audience was the nicest, the sweetest. We love them, it was great, they're great. I just love that that's the kind of community that's gathered around my music and my live shows. They're just thoughtful people. There's a lot of kindness. You make me very proud. [laughter].

Alison Stewart: You guys.

Ani DiFranco: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433 WNYC as we are celebrating the 25th anniversary of Little Plastic Castle with Ani DeFranco. You can call in, share your memories, share your favorite song on the record. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music] You-'re listening to All Of It on WNYC, I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Ani DeFranco. This year, her album Little Plastic Castle turns 25. It has been released on vinyl as well as part of the celebration. It was interesting, I'm thinking back to the time when this came out, and I thought it was just so cool you had your own record label. I'm not sure people understand that was a big deal back then. That was unique. That was unusual for a young woman to have her own record label. When is a time in your career you knew that having your own label really made a big difference in your career and in your happiness?

Ani DiFranco: Yes, I guess for me it was a really organic, long, slow process. Certainly, in the beginning, there is nothing unique or groundbreaking about it in the sense that, right now any of us are surrounded by musicians who play locally in the clubs and bars and coffee houses in our cities and towns, and everybody makes a record and releases it independently. That's what I did. The unique thing was I just didn't stop [laughs]. When I was coming up, and maybe it continues, there was this idea that to really be a professional musician, to break through, to be in the game at all, you had to have a record deal.

It was sort of questioning, going from making records by myself and selling them off the stage that it was necessary to go into that other world of the music industry and the record companies. Just continuing on with that independent self-sufficient model was the breakthrough there. It was hard, not just the marketing and all that kind of muscle of the major label, but the distribution. At the time, again, this was sort of pre-internet. How to get your records when you're making them yourself into record stores. That was the real trick.

It took 10 years for me to do that independently. Those were hard years because I would travel around, play my little shows. Everywhere I went, people would show up and say, "I can't get your records anywhere. It's so frustrating." I would say, "Yes, it is frustrating for me too." [laughs] Not being able to connect through that distribution and that record store with the people who wanted to take the music home. That was hard. Took a lot of patience, but I guess at some point, I came out to the box as a real kind of anti-capitalist punk, and my convictions, if anything, just got stronger, to stick with that and to make it work.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear the title track from Little Plastic Castle.

[music - Ani DiFranco: Little Plastic Castle]

In a coffee shop in a city,

which is every coffee shop

in every city,

on a day which is every day,

I picked up a magazine,

which is every magazine.

Read a story,

and then forgot it right away,

and they say goldfish have no memory,

I guess their lives are much like mine,

and the little plastic castle,

Is a surprise every time,

and it's hard to say if they're happy,

but they don't seem much to mind.

Alison Stewart: That's Little Plastic Castle from Ani DiFranco. Everybody's very happy in our control room right now. Hearing that song. [laughs] Let's talk to Sarah from Brooklyn. Hi Sarah, thanks for calling All Of It.

Sarah: Hi, Alison. Hi, Ani. Wow. Thanks for taking my call. Oh, I'm getting choked up actually. [laughs] Congratulations, Ani, on 25 years anniversary of Little Plastic Castles. I remember when that CD came out, I was part of this community of young dykes that were following you around from concert to concert. Your poetry back then really got me through a lot of trauma. I also want to share that I think as our hero and our love of you maybe kept you in this kind of box where we thought you were disappointing us in the queer community, but what really inspired me is that you got out there in spite of it all.

My favorite song on Little Plastic Castle is Swan Dive because to me it's about that risk and about getting out there as a woman no matter what dangers exist. My favorite line of yours from that song is, "I'm going to do my best to swan dive into shark-infested waters. I'm going to pull out my tampon and just start splashing around. Cuz I don't care if they eat me alive I've got better things to do than survive."

Alison Stewart: Sarah, thank you for calling in. Let's talk to Jackie from Glen Rock, New Jersey. Hi, Jackie, thanks for holding.

Jackie: Thank you so much for taking my call. Like everyone else, I'm also getting choked up. Thank you, Alison and Ani. I wanted to take this opportunity to thank Ani for really having such an impact in the trajectory of my life as a young college student. When this album came out, I grew up attending a very conservative evangelical church in a small town with parents who inadvertently raised a feminist go-figure. That same year it came out, not only was I taking women's and gender studies courses and having my mind blown, but I also survived a sexual assault that year.

Your catalog provided me with comfort and courage and strength that nothing else could. Since then, being a mother, your music has taken on a completely different meaning to me. More recently, being a survivor of breast cancer, I am re-listening to all of these albums, especially Little Plastic Castle, more recently. The meanings just continue to have layers and layers and continue to impact my life and my children's lives. I'm so thankful for your life and for your work.

Alison Stewart: Jackie, I'm so glad you had the opportunity to call in today. Thank you so much. You hear how much this record means to people. When you listen to it again, what do you hear, Ani?

Ani DiFranco: Oh, geez. I don't listen to it again. [laughs] First of all, that's the first thing I've run away from to keep myself sane. I guess I would just say that to the people who have called and that the same is true of me. Your existence is really important to me too, and you validated my existence through this crazy relationship through the music. It sort of works both ways. I feel so grateful to have accompanied people through their lives and struggles and helped in some way. The same is true in reverse. I put myself out there, I put these songs out there, and then what I learn is that I'm not alone and that I do exist and that there's a lot of love in this world and there are places to go to be surrounded by it. Yes, it's sort of this beautiful cyclical thing. Thank you, guys. I'm right there with you spinning through it. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: As we're talking, I see Lucinda Williams is up next. She just told us she's very much enjoying listening to the conversation right now. You have another fan-- [crosstalk]

Ani DiFranco: Hi, Lucinda. Yes, man, it's been so many years.

Alison Stewart: The name of the album is Little Plastic Castle. It is celebrating its 25th anniversary. It's available on vinyl now as well. My guest has been the always thoughtful, Ani DiFranco. Hi Ani. Thank you so much for being with us.

Ani DiFranco: Thanks for having me again. It's great. It's great to be with you.

Alison Stewart: Let's go out on Gravel.

[music - Ani DiFranco: Gravel]

I heard the sound of your bike,

as your wheels hit the gravel,

then your engine in the driveway

cutting off

and I pushed through the screen door

and I stood out on the porch

thinking fight, fight, fight

at all costs,

but instead, I let you in,

just like I've always done

and I sat you down and offered you a beer

and across the kitchen table

I fired several rounds,

but you were still sitting there

when the smoke cleared.

 

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