[MUSIC - Jay-Z: Hard Knock Life]

Take the bass line out, uh-huh

Jigga, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah

Let it bump though

It's the hard knock life for us

It's the hard knock life for us

Instead of treated, we get tricked

Instead of kisses, we get kicked

It's the hard knock life

From standin' on the corners boppin'

To drivin' some of the hottest cars New York has ever seen

For droppin' some of the hottest verses rap has ever heard

From the dope spot, with the smoke Glock fleein' the murder scene

You know me well

From nightmares of a lonely cell, my only hell

But since when y'all niggas know me to fail? Fuck naw

Where all my niggas with the rubber grips, bust shots?

And if you with me, mom, I rub on your tits and what-not

Alison Stewart: It's hard to imagine now, but before Jay-Z was a billionaire businessman/artist sponsoring libraries and vacationing in the south of France with his superstar wife, he was once a rapper from the Marcy Houses in Brooklyn on a quest to be respected as the best in the business. On September 29th, 1998, Jay-Z dropped the album that would cement his status not only as one of the greatest rappers ever, but as a mainstream pop phenomenon. Vol. 2... Hard Knock Life was his third album and the title track borrowed the name from that famous track from the Annie musical. It also borrowed the chorus, which was co-opted as the song's hook as we just heard.

A mix of club hits and thoughtful street-inspired tracks plus production by heavyweights like Timbaland, Swizz Beatz, and Jermaine Dupri catapulted the album to, number one in its first week with Outkast’s Aquemini at number two, A Tribe Called Quest, The Love Movement at number three, and at number four, the previous week's number one album, The Miseducation of Lauren Hill. Vol. 2 also earned Jay-Z a Grammy for Best Rap Album and remains his biggest-selling album of all time.

In the '90s, our senior producer, All Of It’s senior producer, Andrea Duncan-Mao, worked as a producer for MTV News and freelanced for publications like Vibe and The Source. She covered Jay-Z's rise from beloved local New Yorker to a superstar. She wrote The Source's cover story on the album as well as covered ensuing tour for MTV. She joins us in studio for Silver Liner Notes, this hip-hop special. Welcome to the studio, usually in the control room.

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Hello. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, are you a Jay-Z fan? Do you have this album? Share your favorite Jay-Z and Hard Knock memories. Maybe you saw him before on the Hard Knock Life tour or even at a club in New York. What about him as an artist do you appreciate? Our phone lines are open for Jay-Z fans, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can call in and join us on the air or you can text to us at that number, 212-433-WNYC. We are talking Jay-Z for the rest of the hour. You can also reach us on social media @AllOfItWNYC. Andrea, in 1998, where was Jay-Z career-wise?

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Well, in 1998, it was almost like a make-or-break period for him. His first album was Reasonable Doubt ‘96, and it was really thought of as one of the best debuts ever in rap. It really established him as someone who could stand in the same shadow as Biggie, Nas, the lyrics just that people really, really love.

He came out on fire, but that record didn't really sell. It was like an independent release. He did it with a very small label. I think he was very popular in New York. He was a rapper's rapper. People who really loved rap loved him. Then the second album, which was called In My Lifetime, Vol. 1 came out in ‘97. It was a misstep in that it was really influenced by Puffy's rise, and so it felt a little forced. The singles that came out were produced by Babyface and Teddy Riley. It was-- [crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's so much slow jam.

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Yes. It was like, “Yes.” It was like, people were like, “Ooh, what's he doing?” It was like it felt really not Jay-Z. Even though the album tracks were really good, I think they just mess up with the singles. He's coming off of like a sophomore slump and ‘97 was also the year Biggie died. They had been friends, so I think he's coming off a personal loss as well as a community loss, and he's pushing 30. He's in a place where he needs to show and prove that he is the guy that's supposed to be on the Mount Rushmore of rappers.

Alison Stewart: What set this album Vol. 2... Hard Knock Life apart from his other work and also apart from other hip-hop music coming out at that time?

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Well, I don't think that the album necessarily reinvented the wheel, but it had this single that we heard, The Hard Knock Life, which was at that point a little subversive. There had been other albums or other songs like Ghetto Superstar that had big like ‘80s songs, Puffy was doing it, but I think it was that song really caught people's attention. I do think it was how he went into it. It was his mind state.

He was-- you know when you watch a basketball or a sport and there's some player that's scoring the whole game and they ask them after in the press conference, like, "What was going through your mind when you scored those six baskets?" and they're like, "I was just in a zone. I was really in the zone." I think artists go through that and Jay was definitely in a real creative zone and felt really confident about this record.

Alison Stewart: All right. You went through the archives and you brought us a clip from the original interview with Jay-Z. You did. You want to set this up?

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Sure. This is what I'm talking about. He's talking about just his focus and clarity making the record, and how he put different people on tracks. The answer was really, I was asking him why is Swizz Beatz on three records, because he had never worked with Swizz Beatz before and so this is what he talks about.

Jay-Z: I've never been so comfortable and so, you know what I'm saying, content recording. You know what I mean? I feel the last album I was just like, "Man, I’m going to do this album. I don't want do no more hours." You know what I mean? I was just trying to do the album and this album I was just so happy like, "Give me more beats, give me more--” I didn't want to lose that zone. It was just like for a stretch of time for that month, I was just in the zone. Every song I was doing, I was putting the right people in the right place. I felt I put the ranges on the right song, the jazz on the right song and the right place.

You see, if you notice on If I Should Die, the way they changed the chorus is crazy. It goes from me to Half, Half back to me. You know what I mean? It's like, it was just orchestrated so correctly. I was just-- everything was not only just the rhymes and the music, it was just the marriage and the hooks and the Too $hort thing. I really was feeling it. Creatively, I was in a real zone. I was just like, “Give me beats,” you know? I got Swizz on there for three because he was right there feeding me beats. He was like, "Okay, I got hot. I got hot. You know what I mean? I'm right here. You in the zone? Here, take another beat.”

Alison Stewart: He sounds so young and so excited that somebody's interviewing him. [laughs]. So funny.

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Yes, that was really funny. That was back in the day where you could spend-- like, we spent two weekends doing that piece, so like all day Saturday, went to dinner Saturday night, the next day Sunday, went somewhere. I mean, it was like it went on, it was like a marathon, that interview.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Jane from Manhattan. Hi Jane. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Jane: Hi, how are you? Thanks for taking my call.

Alison Stewart: You are on the air.

Jane: Yes, I'm calling because I met Charlie Rose in J&R Music World a long time ago. I was with my husband shopping and I convinced him-- I talked him into interviewing Jay-Z. I said, “You got to interview this guy.” It was because of the depth of his voice and telling stories that have never been told. Our stories have never really been told prior to hip-hop. Charlie and my husband looked at me, he was like talking to this guy. I worked in the entertainment world for 12 years, so I was familiar with mingling with celebrities and not being so impressed with who they are.

Jay-Z impressed me because he once said that he kept all his lyrics in his head. I was like, "Charlie, you've got to interview this guy." Lo and behold, like three, four years later, Charlie Rose did a very thorough interview. He really did his homework and interviewed Jay-Z. I met Jay-Z at-- he had a guy who did beats and rhymes for him. His name was [unintelligible 00:08:43] and unfortunately, he died in a horrific car accident.

Jay-Z and Prodigy showed up at the funeral and at the wake and he was just such a gentleman. He looked at me, he was like, "How you doing?" I was like-- so I tried to muster some laughter with the kids during the ceremony saying, "Oh, he gave me his autograph. You guys want to see it?" but he was such a gentleman for just showing up.

Alison Stewart: Jane, thank you so much for sharing your memories. Let's talk to Uzi from Brooklyn because this'll get us into our production conversation. Hi, Uzi. Thank you for calling in.

Uzi: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate joining the conversation.

Alison Stewart: Go for it.

Uzi: The one thing I just wanted to touch on was that The Hard Knock Life single was produced by a man named 45 King and he's a legend in the game. I feel like when people remember the record, they remember a lot of these big-name people attached, like Swizz or whoever, Jermaine, but the real genius, the heart behind the single that broke that record was the 45 King. He's a sweet guy. My guy DJ Paul Precise out in Denver runs a lot of his presence now where he's still making dope music and representing Jersey. I just want to give it up to my guy 45 King. I appreciate the opportunity,

Alison Stewart: Uzi, thank you so much. He was next on our- -list to talk about. We’re going to have a whole segment about the producers. Talk to us a little bit about the producers who were involved in Hard Knock Life and why they were important to him.

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Sure. I wanted to shout out 45 King too, because 45 King wasn't a big star at the time like he said. I think people had forgotten all his work with Latifah. Actually, the success of Hard Knock Life transcended for 45 King. He ended up doing the beat for Stan for Eminem so it opened the door to a lot of things for him as well, whoever recognized that he really was the architect. He also worked with Swizz he was talking about, he's on three tracks. That was part of that synergy because Roc-A-Fella, his label, Jay-Z's label had a deal with Def Jam and they were their distributors.

They had access to all these different producers and artists and that's why you see DMX is on the album, Ja Rule is on the album, all these different people, Foxy Brown. Then Timbaland is really important too because this is the first time that they're together and they go on to make huge hits for years afterwards. They've got at least 12 songs together, I think I counted, including Big Pimpin, other songs that we've-- Dirt Off Your Shoulder, all these songs that everybody knows, but this album was the first time they worked together.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to Timbaland-produced track Jigga What from Hard Knock Life by Jay-Z.

[MUSIC - Jay-Z: Jigga What, Jigga Who]

Yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh,

Jigga Man, Timbaland

Uh-huh, uh-huh,

Leon, nine-nine

Uh-huh, uh-huh, Roc-a-Fella

Ya’ll cats wanna act loco,

Hit em up, numerous shots with the fo'-fo'

Cats wanna talk to Po-Po's, smoke em like cocoa

Not rap, coke by the boatload

Watch that, on the run-by, gun high, one eye closed

Left holes through some guy clothes

Stop your nonsense, glock with the full clip

Ya’ll cats better duck when the fool spit

One shot could make a playa do a full flip

See the playa layin' shocked when the bullet hit

Oh hey ma, how you, know no cats wanna buy you

But see me I wanna try for free, you heard me

Now I gotta let her take this ride, make you feel it

Alison Stewart: That is Jay-Z from Hard Knock Life. We have another edition of Silver Liner Notes where we celebrate albums having a 25th anniversary. Our guest is All Of It senior producer Andrea Duncan-Mao, who wrote the cover story on Jay-Z around this time in his career. Listeners, if you want to call in with your Jay-Z thoughts, if you had this album, what it meant to you, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Let's talk to our friend, Gabriel. Frequent caller friend of the show, calling in from Georgia. Hi, Gabriel.

Gabriel: Hey, Alison.

Alison Stewart: What's going on?

Gabriel: Long time listener, long time caller. I just wanted to drop my two cents on Jay-Z. I think he's a great musician. He’s got great taste in beats and this album in particular really showcases his good taste in comparison to where he was trying to fit in the whole industry leading up to this as well as where we've seen beats go since. He always has good taste and it enables him to even get experimental and still maintain a consistency in quality.

What I think is cool about this album is that it-- and I'd appreciate if your guest can correct me if I'm wrong, but there's so many collabs with other artists and done very well. They set a nice blueprint, pardon the pun, for a lot of collabs done in music coming after this. He even worked with Phish a couple years after this and he was experimenting with all this stuff. I would implore all listeners out there to check out the Jay-Z MTV, another shout out to MTV Ms. Alison, Unplugged where he did a lot of these tracks off this album with The Roots live, and it just really speaks to the beauty of the beat-making and as well as Questlove's musical direction.

Alison Stewart: Gabriel, thank you so much. There was a lot in there. Is there anything you want to comment on before we move forward?

Andrea Duncan-Mao: There weren't a ton of collabs that I remember. I think there was a handful. I think he picks the right people to work with. I would say that I agree that Jay-Z doesn't have a sound. You don't think of Jay-Z having a sound like a Wu-Tang has a sound or a Snoop has a sound, like they rap over certain kinds of beats. Jay's always been a free agent in that he just gets on things that he likes. I think that actually helps him because he's never pigeonholed into sounding one kind of way.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to [unintelligible 00:14:45] from Monroe Township, New Jersey. Hi, [unintelligible 00:14:47], this needs to be quick, but you have a great point, so go for it.

Speaker 4: I just feel validated that you guys are talking about Tribe and Jay-Z and Black Star on NPR because when it did come out, at that time in-- specifically after Biggie's death, I felt that the news, especially Fox News would treat hip-hop as a source of violence. There's a very famous Geraldo Rivera quote where he says that hip-hop has done worse or has done more harm to the Black and Brown community than good. For Black and Brown kids growing up, Jay-Z was a beacon of entrepreneurship. For you guys to speak about it on NPR gives us validation.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. We only have a few minutes left. Is there anything specific you wanted to let our listeners know or insight that you have either about the tour or about where he was in his business life at this time?

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Well, I think that he was actually, if you can believe the opener on Puff Daddy's No Way Out Tour in 1997 and it did not go well. He left the tour. He told me that it was really because he felt like he couldn't control it. I think that was like a little thing went off on his head like, "I'm going to do my own tour and I'm going to be in control of it and I've learned what to do and what not to do." He was able to assemble that Hard Knock Life tour that hit 54 cities with no violence, no bad press and became the highest grossing tour at that time ever. I think that's where you really see that entrepreneurship and that not an on autonomy that he really looked for financially.

Alison Stewart: Andrea Duncan-Mao, she is our senior here, producer here at All Of It and our Jay-Z in-house expert, thank you for being with us.

Andrea Duncan-Mao: Of course.

Alison Stewart: Let's go out on, Can I Get A… from Jay-Z.

[MUSIC - Jay-Z: Can I Get A…]

Bounce wit me, bounce wit me

Yeah bounce wit me, bounce wit me

Can I hit in the morning

Without giving you half of my dough

And even worse if I was broke would you want me?

 

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