Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm so grateful that you're here. On today's show, we'll speak with the directors of the new documentary Sorry/Not Sorry. The film explores how comedian Louis CK admitted to sexual misconduct and then returned to the stage with material that mocked his accusers. Author Lev Grossman will join us to talk about his amazing new book, The Bright Sword. New York Times food writer Melissa Clark is here to talk about what food to make for your Olympics watch party. That's the plan, so let's get this started with Times Square pre Rudolph Giuliani. [MUSIC - Isaac Hayes - Theme From Shaft]

That is, of course, Isaac Hayes's iconic Oscar winning theme from the movie Shaft, about a Black private detective working amidst the dirt and grime of 1970s New York. There are so many movies set in the old Times Square when New Yorkers weren't avoiding just the tourists in the neighborhood. The Criterion Channel have a new series this summer inspired by the older, grimier Times Square that was an important cinematic setting for movies like Taxi Driver, Midnight Cowboy and King of New York, of course, lines like, "You talking to me?" or, "Hey, I'm walking here," still live on in our culture. You can find the Times Square series on the Criterion Channel now, and with me to talk about the films and take your calls is curator Clyde Folly. Clyde, welcome back to WNYC.

Clyde Foley: Thank you. It's great to be here. I feel so energized by your energy level right now. I feel like we're approaching something, nearing method radio. We'll see what happens next 30 minutes? I have no idea.

Kousha Navidar: We'll see. Listeners, if you want to shout out some of your favorite lines, too, we are here to hear from you. Do you have a favorite movie? Do Times Square movies get you as jazzed up, as energized as I feel about them? Is it Shaft? Is that a movie that you love or Taxi Driver, or a more underappreciated movie? Call or text now at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. What do you think made the old Times Square such a popular setting for some of the most iconic New York movies? We're here to talk to you about it. 212-433-9692 or you can hit us up on social, on Instagram or on X, our handle is @allofitwnyc.

Clyde, how would you describe the aesthetic of old time Square and how the movies in this series generally depict the area?

Clyde Foley: Sleazy, I think that's it. It's the intersection of sex, crime and drugs, and it really has everything to do with the decline of Times Square that started around the 1960s. You know what else was happening around this time is, in addition to the decline of Times Square, is, I believe, 1965, Mayor Lindsay created the mayor's office of Film and Theater and Broadcasting, which made it so much easier to film in New York. He was really encouraging these productions. Suddenly, you just needed one permit to film in New York, and you got a specialized police unit that would follow the crews around.

Basically, at the same time, Times Square is in utter decline. We start getting more movies in New York. These movies really come of that. The series starts in 1959 with Sweet Smell of Success. It goes all the way up to 1999 with Gods of Times Square. It's distinctly a pre Giuliani series.

Kousha Navidar: Before we get into any specific movies, outside of just using Times Square as a setting, and that's so interesting, that actually became easier to film, and so that's part of the reason why more of these movies happened. When you look at this whole collection, what are some of the underlying themes that all of these movies have in common?

Clyde Foley: Desperation, fleas hanging on by a thread, crime, danger. I don't know, it's like all these things. Look, I moved to New York in 2008. I'm a millennial. I can't speak with any real authority of what Times Square used to be like. My connection to it is the movies, but a lot of us, we love these movies. It's really that allure of dirty old New York that keeps drawing us back.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to the first movie before we get to some calls. We heard the Shaft theme song in the intro. Let's talk about it. It's iconic in movie history, especially Black movie history. First, there's the score itself, which was composed by Isaac Hayes, and it won an Oscar for best original score. Why do you think this theme is so popular? What is the capture about Shaft?

Clyde Foley: I don't know. It's a tough question to answer. In the most simple terms, it rocks, it's a great theme. I was just rewatching Shaft recently, and the thing that has always really struck me about Shaft is the opening credits. When you hear the Shaft theme song and the camera basically just pans down on 42nd Street, and you see Richard Roundtree walking by the old Marquis. It's essentially without the music, this is just a beautiful walking tour of midtown Manhattan.

I love to see it, but then you put a theme over it, and it is the most hyped up opening sequence imaginable. It has everything to do with the New York imagery, very charismatic star and that great theme song.

Kousha Navidar: How did they use Times Square in the movie?

Clyde Foley: Shaft's [00:06:12] office is kind of right around the corner from Times Square, so he's constantly going around Times Square, Midtown Manhattan, but it's also just a place where you go, or he goes to, I don't know, to talk up-- I'm losing my train of thought here.

Kousha Navidar: Where he engages with people.

Clyde Foley: He engages with people. He goes down, he talks to people, he gets information, that sort of thing.

Kousha Navidar: It's kind of like his playground in a certain sense?

Clyde Foley: Oh, big time. All of Midtown Manhattan, but especially Times Square.

Kousha Navidar: The film was directed by Gordon Parks, who's a legendary photographer. In what ways did his film depict Black characters differently on the screen than they had been, maybe in the past?

Clyde Foley: You didn't really get a star or a character like Richard Roundtree or Schaff before that. Sidney Poitier was really a great example of the leading Black man before then, but he didn't really get to go, what's the best way to put it? John Shaft got to be a complete tough guy, go all the way. It's breaking barriers, he just got to be the ultimate tough guy.

Kousha Navidar: Shaft is important, and especially Black film history kind of ushered in a genre of Black filmmaking that's known as Blaxploitation?

Clyde Foley: Absolutely.

Kousha Navidar: Why are films like that, Blaxploitation films important in understanding Black American culture in the 1970s?

Clyde Foley: That's a hard thing for me to speak to as someone who's not Black in America in the 1970s, but I can say that as someone who loves Blaxploitation, it's really just about getting to see Black actors do these great action movies. In addition to Richard Roundtree, you have people like Pam Greer doing Coffy and Foxy Brown, and of course, Melvin Van Peebles with Sweet Sweetback's. It's just about getting to be tough and unapologetic.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking to Clyde Foley, who's a Criterion curator, and we're speaking about the Criterion Channel's new Times Square series. We were just talking about Shaft. His office was right around the corner from Times Square. We are talking about movies that maybe you love or that you think are underappreciated, that feature Times Square talking about Shaft. Later on, we're going to talk about movies like Taxi Driver, King of New York.

What movies do you think of when you think of Times Square Square as a central setting? What's a more underappreciated movie for you? Call or text us now. 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. Got a lot of messages coming through. Let's go to Brendan in Flushing. Hey, Brandan, you're here with Clyde Foley. How are you?

Brandan: Hey, I love you guys. Thanks so much for what you do. Listen, you included King of New York, Christopher Walken, Abel Ferrara. I think it was 1990, the final scene, he's in the cab after-- just an epic movie. I don't think they could make a movie like that in today's Times Square, New York. Thanks for everything.

Kousha Navidar: Brandon, thank you so much. Clyde, what do you think about that? Could they have made a movie like King of New York today?

Clyde Foley: I don't think so. There's a lot about the circumstances of King of New York. They were very unique to that moment, not the least of which the way that it's just completely independently financed and Abel Ferrara got to basically do whatever he wanted. I love this movie so much. No, you couldn't make King of New York today.

Kousha Navidar: Brandon, thanks so much for that call. Just to point out, King of New York is part of the Criterion Channel's selection.

Clyde Foley: You bet it is.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to another caller, Kevin in Astoria. Hey, Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin: Thank you, gentlemen. Two quick things, I guess. Number one, I grew up in New Hampshire. I started college in New York City in 1980, and on of my first experiences was going to the New Yorker cinema, which existed then, which was a double feature place. It showed repertory double features, and I saw Taxi Driver and I investigated it because I was a political science major, so I knew about Arthur Bremer and that it was partly based on that. I was walking through there on a cold night in New York City, right by Times Square, and a woman called me over to talk to her because it was so cold out.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow. Kevin, what movie? Tell us the movie that you love. Is it Taxi Driver?

Kevin: Taxi Driver, but the other one, and I don't know if I love it, and this is the weird story, King of New York. I saw it in a movie theater in Queens with my then girlfriend. We started watching the movie and something was really bizarre about the soundtrack. I waited at least half an hour, but something was really wrong, and so I finally left the theater itself and went and go talk to talk to an usher. I said, "Look, there's something wrong. You kept the audio system on while playing the movie, so there are two soundtracks happening, essentially."

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow.

Kevin: He didn't want to believe me. I finally just had to yell at him and say, "Look, it's on."

Kousha Navidar: I'm trying to watch the movie here. Kevin, thanks so much for that call. We've got stop there just for time, but Kevin also mentioned Taxi Driver, so I want move on to that one. It's another movie in the Criterion series. It's the dark and twisted movie by Martin Scorsese, starring a young Robert De Niro and Jodie Foster. De Niro plays Travis Bickle, who's a Vietnam vet who works as a cab driver, and you kind of realize he's slowly losing it.

Clyde, why does Taxi Driver, or I guess, what does it capture about this New York underworld that existed in the '70s?

Clyde Foley: I think it captures-- One of the things that's really interesting about Taxi Driver is how it feels simultaneously like a completely subjective point of view and that you see everything through the eyes of Travis Bickle, who is perhaps, shall we say, less than steady, even kills psychological force. You're also seeing just this incredible, it's basically documentary footage of what new York was in 1976.

Kousha Navidar: Robert De Niro is so good in Taxi Driver. There is the famous line that I have done already. Let's listen to that line right now. Here's Robert De Niro.

Robert De Niro: You talking to me? You talking to me? You talking to me? Then who the hell else are you talking. Talking to me? Well, I'm the only one here. Who the **** do you think you're talking to? Oh, yeah. Huh?

Kousha Navidar: What does De Niro nail about his character, Travis Bickle?

Clyde Foley: First of all, I was about to say congratulations on finding 30 seconds from Taxi Driver that you can play on the radio and then realize, no, you can't play that either. I don't know. What does he capture? A seriously disturbed person responding to declining New York in ways that are extreme and not always great. But what he really captures, I mentioned this earlier, but there's a sense of desperation in that film and of not knowing, or seeing a city in decline and not really knowing how to respond to it and just trying to adapt, and the ways that he adapts are not so great. Everything about it is so rooted in what was going on in New York at that time.

Kousha Navidar: De Niro is also in another movie in this series of yours, Born To Win, and he's in so many iconic seventies New York movies. What is it, do you think, about De Niro and his acting chops that made him such a good choice for these kind of grimy New York movies?

Clyde Foley: Especially in that time period, he's just electrifying to watch. Even referring to the film Born To Win that he's briefly in. I was reading up on it before coming in, and I read that he kept almost being fired from that movie because he was doing his method Stella Adler thing so much, and just drawing so much attention to himself during this performance that everyone's like, "No, this is too distracting. You can't do this." But it's that De Niro energy at that time that he's bringing that method energy.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking to Clyde Foley from Criterion about the new Criterion Channel's Times Square series, which includes movies that feature the old Times Square as a central setting. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to go through some more of the movies. We're going to take some more of your calls. Stay with us. This is All Of It.

This is All Of It. On WNYC, I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. We're here talking to Clyde Folly from the Criterion. He's a Criterion curator. We're speaking about the Criterion Channel's new Times Square series. It includes movies that have famous parts of Times Square in them, pre Rudolph Giuliani. We're talking the old Times Square, the old New York City. Listening right now, if you've got a movie that sticks out in your mind when you think of Times Square, give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692.

Clyde, during the break we had a lot of people chime in about one specific movie. There's a text here that says Vanilla Sky. The Vanilla Sky scene with Tom Cruise running, of course, through empty Times Square is iconic, amazing scene marking the West Village. We also have a caller, Howard from Forest Hills. We can't get to Howard right now. I'm sorry, but Howard, I see you also wanted to talk about Vanilla Sky with Tom Cruise. Are you familiar with the movie? Can you talk a little bit about it?

Clyde Foley: I am familiar with it. It's been, I don't know, decades since I've seen Vanilla Sky, but I was just actually talking about Vanilla Sky yesterday with Aliza Ma, who's the head of programming for the Criterion Channel and really does so much work. I want shout out to Aliza. We were talking about this series and how it's very much a pre Giuliani series, and then we were talking about-- what are the iconic images of Times Square in movies post Giuliani? She mentioned, it really is Vanilla Sky, just the image of Tom Cruise walking through a completely empty Times Square, but it's not the Times Square that we're seeing in these movies. It's already the corporate, disneyfied Times Square that we're more familiar with now.

Kousha Navidar: Thanks so much, Howard. Just want to give you a shout out, because we didn't get to your call, and everyone who's texting in with Vanilla Sky and that famous Tom Cruise scene of which I'm sure there are many of him running through different movies. Let's go to Don in Trenton, New Jersey. Hey, Don, welcome to the show.

Don: Oh, thank you.

Kousha Navidar: What movie for you?

Don: For me, it was the Sweet Smell Of Success with Tony Curtis and Burt Lancaster where Tony Curtis plays a news writer for one of the papers in New York and his office is in the Brill Building. Between him and Burt Lancaster in the movie, they just wear some really cool clothes. It's just a very atmospheric sort of black and white great movie that takes place in Times Square.

Kousha Navidar: Awesome. Don, thank you so much for that call. Want to say Sweet Smell Of Success is on the Criterions list. Let's keep going. Alan in Brighton Beach. Hey, Alan, welcome to the show.

Alan: Thank you. I spent a lot of Time in Times Square. I had an office on 42nd, between 6th and 7th, and after a few years, I remember one day walking downstairs and there was these lights, which were just unbelievable and hot, and that was the McDonald's that they put up, which was really the first of all those things. It just said to me, this place is changing.

When I think of a movie, I really think about a feel and I get a New York feel. For me, there's nothing that really sticks out to me about Times Square, but a movie like Tootsie now that features several locations on 34th Street. A movie like the Jerry Lewis, King of Comedy, which I know is a little further uptown, midtown, not far from the area. The scenes that you see that I have in my mind, like I'm walking here, is a yellow cab. A yellow cab is identifiably New York. Horrible traffic, identifiably New York. There are certain things, so it's less the specific location than somehow the ambiance that's created that creates that New York, horrible, hot Midtown-

Kousha Navidar: Yellow taxi, people going after you. Alan, got a pause at there. We just want to say thanks so much for that call. Absolutely right, and because you mentioned Tootsie with Dustin Hoffman, and then you mentioned I'm Walking Here, which is from another movie, I want to go to that movie to talk about it. I believe we have Hernan from Ardsley, Westchester, who might be able to speak to that. Hernan, hi. Are you there?

Hernan: Yes, this is he.

Kousha Navidar: Hi. You might want to talk to Midnight Cowboy, right?

Hernan: Oh, yeah. It is one of my favorite movies to watch if I want to remember New York City, let's say, early eighties. I think so before the '80s, with Dustin Hoffman?

Kousha Navidar: What do you love about him?

Hernan: Oh, it was the place of entertainment. It was the place to go on your day off from work. It was the place to go and see a movie. It was the Mecca of most of people who came to New York City to go and spend a night there or a day just walking around, seeing people and looking all the entertainment that had in the center of Times Square.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Hernan, thank you so much for that call. Clyde, I want to turn to you. Midnight Cowboy, another collection in this movie starring Jon Voight and Dustin Hoffman. Can you give us the basic plot?

Kousha Navidar: The basic plot is Jon Voight plays Joe Buck, who coming from the west to New York City with the scheme of just being a hustler, thinking he can appeal to some older ladies who need some attention, shows up in New York, and things do not go as planned. It is a grim film, but also, I hadn't seen this in a long time. I was rewatching it recently, and perhaps other people have similar experiences where there are pieces of art that they maybe take for granted because it's been so elevated for so long.

I think for me, Midnight Cowboy is one of these movies because I forgot how great it was. Notable for many things, not the least of which being the first and only X-rated film to win Best Picture.

Kousha Navidar: Wow.

Clyde Foley: Actually, this brings me to another point about this series. Which is, in addition to the films here coinciding with the decline of Times Square, coinciding with the founding of the mayor's office of film, it also coincides with what's basically like a loosening of censorship in movies. Basically, Midnight Cowboy, this movie would not have been made five years prior, but because things had loosened up, because we had a rating system that allowed for more of these risqué things to take place in films, we get Midnight Cowboy.

Kousha Navidar: It sounds like it was kind of not a perfect storm, but maybe like it's a perfect storm. Almost a perfect storm of all of these different elements that allowed for super big, boisterous, films with a lot of voice being made.

Clyde Foley: Absolutely.

Kousha Navidar: This movie has another iconic line when Voight and Hoffman are walking in the street and they almost get hit by a cab. We've said it a lot. I feel like we owe it to hear the actual clip. Take a listen. Here it is.

[Clip from Midnight Cowboy]

Speaker 3: Look, with these gals that want to buy it, most of them are old and dignified, social registered types. You know what I mean? They can't be trotting down a Times Square to pick up the merchandise. They gotta have some kind of middleman, and that's where old Daniel comes in. You know what I mean?

[car hooting]

Hey, I'm walking here. I'm walking here. Up yours, you son of a **** You don't talk to me that way. Get out of here.

[car hooting]

Don't worry about that. Actually, that ain't a bad way to pick up insurance.

Kousha Navidar: What about this scene is so great to you?

Clyde Foley: It's just like it's the collision of the messiness of New York City. Talking about Times Square really captures a sense of chaos. It's like the most extreme version of an energy a lot of us in the city feel of just being jostled around all the time. Yes, I really think that's part of it.

Kousha Navidar: We've got some more texts that I want to read. To your point about being jostled around, there's this one text we just got that said, ""Yes, the ambience," as one caller said, "I was a teenage girl. There were classic sleazy flashers, mean streets, Tony Lobianco. Certain actors really captured the times." Got another text here that says, "Jason takes Manhattan." Oh, a text here for Midnight Cowboy, I believe that is saying, "The iconic I'm walking here scene was filmed on 6th Ave and 56th Street." So nice little piece of--

Clyde Foley: You know what? I really appreciate the specificity of geography that we're getting from the callers. It's a great thing about New York listeners. People are really opinionated and knowledgeable about these locations, and I appreciate it.

Kousha Navidar: We've also got taking of The Taking of Pelham One Two Three. This is from Jack in Brooklyn. Hey, Jack. We've also got The Panic in Needle Park, Fame. A lot of folks are talking about Fame. Here's one that I'm not even sure I'm pronouncing it right. You know the movie Chud?

Clyde Foley: Yes, Chud.

Kousha Navidar: Here's one texture that says, did Chud make the list? It's a classy, trashy, New York City B-grade horror at its best. Did it make the list?

Kousha Navidar: It did not make the list, and that it's not there. But sure, we can watch Chud whenever you want. Let's fire up Chud now. Cannibalistic humanoid underground dweller?

Kousha Navidar: That's right. Great memory. There aren't just fictional movies in the series. There's documentaries, too. For example, there's The Gods of Times Square. That was taped over a span of six years, I believe. What's this movie about? What's the context in which this documentary was shot?

Clyde Foley: It was shot by, I believe, a photographer named Richard Sandler, who just took a low grade video camera down to Times Square and was just filming the area over the course of six years and talking to people. The definition of man on the street filmmaking, and it's filming the people who hung out on Times Square, and a lot of people like the street preachers. There's a lot of discussion about religion and all that, but it's really just like boots on the ground filmmaking of what life in Times Square was like.

The reason this movie has resurfaced lately is that Josh Safdie, co-director of Uncut Gems, Heaven Knows What and other films, has been a real champion of this. He, along with Jake Perlin brought this thing back into circulation in the last year. It's great that it's back out there.

Kousha Navidar: We have our clock ticking down. Got to wrap this up, unfortunately. There are so many more texts that we could have gotten to. There's Moscow in the Hudson. I'm seeing some people texting. Serpico is another one. I want to say, listeners, thank you so much for being in it with us from the very top of this. Loved your calls. Love your texts.

Clyde, for you, the joke is that New Yorkers today still avoid Time Square, but it's for different reasons. It's more about tourists than just the congestion. How do you think the fact that the old Times Square no longer exists, how does that impact how we enjoy the movies in this collection?

Clyde Foley: It's a funny thing because, as I said, I love the movies. I love the depictions. I love the idea of it. The reality, if I lived in New York in 1985, would I have actually gone to the movies in Times Square? I don't know. This was not an easy scene down there. I don't know. I think that we will always have these movies and it'll always be something to plug into and think about what New York used to be and what it's not now, and it's nice having that reminder.

Kousha Navidar: We're here with Clyde Foley from the Criterion. We were talking about the Criterion Channel's New Times Square series. We heard a lot of great movies that are a part of that series to celebrate what Times Square used to be. Clyde, thanks so much for hanging out with us.

Clyde Foley: Thanks for having me.

 

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