[MUSIC- Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. Back in 1998, my next guest said one of my favorite quotes about jazz. He boasted, "The first jazz musician was a trumpeter, Buddy Bolden, and the last will be a trumpeter, the archangel Gabriel." Somewhere in between those figures, it's no stretch to include our next guest, the trumpet player, the band leader, the composer, the educator, the figure himself, Mr. Wynton Marsalis.

After all, right before he gave that quote, Mr. Marsalis had become the first jazz musician to win the Pulitzer Prize for music. For more than four decades, he has been an ambassador of jazz. He is the managing and artistic director of Jazz at Lincoln Center. He has won nine Grammys and he has recorded 110 jazz and classical albums. What you cannot capture in numbers are the countless students and lives he has touched with his work in music education.

In fact, I am one of them, and maybe we'll get to that later. For now, here is something exciting. This week through June 16th, Wynton Marsalis is performing two sets a night at the legendary Blue Note Jazz Club right by Washington Square Park. It's part of Jazz at Lincoln Center's residency during the 2024 Blue Note Jazz Festival. This is the first time that Wynton will be headlining the Blue Note since 1991.

He's playing the first half of the residency with Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra, and for the second half of the week, he'll be playing with The Future of Jazz Septet. Tickets are on sale now, and here to talk all about it is Mr. Wynton Marsalis. Welcome, and thanks so much for coming on.

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Man, thank you so much for that introduction. I'm going to call you after this to see if I can get you to introduce me on things. You are far too kind. It's a pleasure.

Kousha Navidar: I will answer that phone call in a heartbeat, I'll tell you. [chuckles] I'm looking at some old pictures that you posted on Instagram of the previous times that you played at the Blue Note. There's this souvenir program and menu of the 1991 New Year's Eve Jazz Jamboree headline with Herbie Hancock. I thought it was funny that on the menu items is an omelette called On the Sunny Side of the Street, and it's for $12.95. Do you remember that concert?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Not really, but if I have to really think about it-- I've been in the Blue Note so many times. I used to live right around the corner, so it's hard for me to remember that exact concert.

Kousha Navidar: The history is just even through that Instagram post that you put there in the pictures and it seems like the Blue Note has played a pretty important part in your own career. Is that fair?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Yes. I think also many musicians. You go back even to the '80s, my first time of hearing various musicians was there, Freddie Hubbard playing there. I had the great concertist Dizzy Gillespie here, near the end of his life. He was at the Blue Note. I had the opportunity to play. There were always a lot of musicians showing up. I remember one night being in the Blue Note with the great trumpeters, Sweets Edison and Clark Terry and we all sitting up there backstage with Jon Faddis, talking and laughing and joking.

It was always a good time. [unintelligible 00:03:33] a good time. I heard the great Benny Carter [unintelligible 00:03:36] there one night. A student was with his [unintelligible 00:03:39]. He looked at the bill and he was like, "Whoo." Just the experience of seeing younger people at that time, then this would probably be in the 1980s too, coming to check the music out and wanting to be adult. A lot of great experiences there.

Kousha Navidar: Is there something special about the Blue Note that made it such a spot? Is it where it was located? Is it something about the venue itself that has made such an impact on so many people?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: I think it's the location, the staff, the people who've played there. It's a jazz club. People have that type of feeling. It's the combination of formality and informality, and the roster of great musicians that have played there.

Kousha Navidar: What do you like about playing at the Blue Note?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: I like the centrality of the stage. I like the people, the way they curve around the bandstand. I always loved standing at the bar. Like I said, I lived in a village for a while in the early '80s. I was always over there hanging out. I also loved the tradition. I grew up in clubs because my father's a jazz musician. When I get in that environment, I'm always much more at home. The staff was always extremely cool. The ownership, everybody was in for the music.

Kousha Navidar: We went digging for a recording of the last time that you headlined at the Blue Note in 1991. We searched and searched and we got pretty close. It's not headlining but we found a recording of you playing at the Blue Note in the very beginning of 1992 with Dizzy, who you mentioned, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Sepulveda.

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Sepulveda. That's right.

Kousha Navidar: Here's a clip of you three playing together on the song Straight No Chaser.

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: I didn't remember the melody. I remember that.

[MUSIC- Dizzy Gillespie feat. Wynton Marsalis & Charlie Sepulveda: Straight No Chaser]

Kousha Navidar: You would have been just about to turn 30 back then. Do you remember what it felt to play at that time? How do you think your playing, maybe especially your improvising, has evolved for you since then?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: A lot. That's 30-something years, but I do remember that. I couldn't remember the melody of it, even though that was one of our ensemble pieces in high school. I remember that particular performance because there's nothing I could do to remember how [unintelligible 00:06:38] turned the phrase around in that song. I remember one of the musicians said, "Man, you don't even know Straight No Chaser." Of course, 30 years is a long time of playing a lot of different music. I hope I play a lot better than I played then.

Kousha Navidar: I'm sure some people will say that it's all great. Looking today, where did the idea come to return as a headliner to the Blue Note?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: I think it was-- the Blue Note approached us. We normally only play in our hall, but part of our mandate as Jazz at Lincoln Center is to try to bring the jazz world closer. It was great opportunity for us to play in a different space in New York City because we certainly support all of the clubs and every place that keeps musicians playing.

Kousha Navidar: For the first half of your residency, you're playing with the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra, but then for the next three nights, it's with The Future of Jazz Septet. What can audiences expect to hear differently between those two groups?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: We're much older, but they're fantastic young musicians, each one of them great in their own way and many we've known since they were just high school students. There's going to be the same concentration on quality improvisation and the same seriousness. These are younger musicians at the beginning of their careers. With the orchestra, the older of us, which will be me and Victor Goines, we're in our 34th, 35th years of playing with the orchestra, our 40th years of playing. We're definitely different from musicians who are 24 and 25 years old.

One of the great things is that we play across generations, like the tape you heard of me messing up the melody of Straight No Chaser with Charlie Sepulveda and with Dizzy. Charlie and I are much younger than Dizzy, but it's one of the beautiful things about our music. We play across lines of generation.

Kousha Navidar: When you are playing with younger musicians now and you can put yourself in their shoes back then when you were playing with Dizzy, what are some things that you try to do to be supportive of younger musicians? I can imagine they're timid or maybe they're trying to prove themselves. Is there anything that you try to do to be a supportive partner on stage?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: With these musicians, they're not going to be timid. I've known them since they were 13 or 14. They can play. They know I love them. It's a feeling. Like Domo Branch, we get together and practice. Joe Block, I wrote his college recommendation then. Philip Norris, when we heard him play in high school, Jeff Hamilton and I looked around and Jeff said, "Can I take this kid on the road tomorrow?"

He was a junior, and his mother is an educator and a trumpeter, and he's a French hornist. He graduated from Juilliard. Alexa Tarantino, she had a camp for kids when she was still in high school. It's an honor to play with them. Abdias Armenteros is the other young musician we heard. He's from the New World School of the Arts in Miami, Florida, and he'd been fantastic for a long time. I don't have to do any of that. I'm trying to get them to show me what they're doing.

Kousha Navidar: Do they ever give you a run for your money? Do they ever push you a little bit and you're like, "Oh, slow down." [chuckles]

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: They all do. I don't tell them to slow down though. I tell them, "We got to keep this going." I have such a depth of love for them and have known them in such a familiar way that it's not any of that older, younger thing. For me, with my younger musicians, I always want to empower them to do their thing. We have basic things, I think, and we're doing, but when we start playing, they're there to play and come up with their own things and investigate and figure out how to use their intelligence and their creativity to make the music better. The ones I'm playing would have a lot of it.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking to the legendary Wynton Marsalis, the trumpeter, composer, educator, and the managing and artistic director of Jazz at Lincoln Center. He'll be performing at the Blue Note Jazz Club through June 16th, first time headlining it since 1991. The first half of the residency is going to be with the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra with Wynton Marsalis. Then the final three days, like we were just talking about, are through Wynton Marsalis and The Future of Jazz Septet.

You're bringing up a lot of stories, Wynton. I've got my own I'd like to share with you. When I was 14, I was serious about jazz trumpet, and my mom took me to a jazz concert in Albany at this venue, you probably know it's called The Egg. I remember loving the concert. Then she got me backstage to meet the bandleader, whom I'd never heard of before. He was so kind. He had the whole group sign my program. Then he said, and I'm never going to get this. He said, "What do you play?" I say, "I play the trumpet." He goes, "Did you bring it with you?" I laugh and I go, "No." Then he says, "Well, bring it next time and we'll play on stage together."

That person made me feel so valued, and it made me take the trumpet seriously, but more just made me so appreciative of music. That person was you. Even though I didn't make the trumpet my career, I did make music a part of my life. It's really part of everything I do. Even getting married last month in New Orleans, I played the trumpet during my second line. I got a picture that I can show you if you want.

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Yes, show it to me. [chuckles]

Kousha Navidar: First, I just wanted to say thank you. Also, thanks to my mom, let's be real. Also, I just want to ask, I'm sure you get stories like these all the time. Education has been a part of your DNA. Where do you think that came from?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: First, I appreciate you remembering me. I appreciate having that opportunity to be a part of your life. I take that very seriously. Many times I do say, "Is that your mama with you? Make sure you thank your mama." My father was a teacher. I was always around music teachers, and the older musicians were always nice to me. Like Sweets Edison, treats me like I was his kid, Clark Terry, Dizzy. When I was 13 and 14, I was always in the environment with them, and the best of them were always extremely cool. Even when I meet kids now, now they're not kids, they're much older, the two corny jokes I always crack when they say, "I saw you, and blah, blah, blah, blah, you taught me." I would say, "I'm not old enough to have taught you."

Kousha Navidar: [laughs]

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Or else I ask them, "Was I nice?" The fact that you have a nice story, I was nice, and that I gave you a good feeling, that's very important to me. That's the one thing I've tried to do in all of my years out here. Even if it's just for a minute or something, to have that opportunity to touch somebody and give them a feeling of the love and the generosity spirit that is in the music. Thank you very, very much for the story. It does mean a lot.

Kousha Navidar: It means a lot. I appreciate you saying that. You've had that impact on so many people. I can only imagine. Is there any way that your impact has surprised and delighted you over the years? Any specific story of somebody that is not even in music coming up to you and talking about it?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Man, I have many stories because I've always stayed at every gig and met everybody. One story that was moving to me as we were playing a piece I wrote called All Rise with the University of Michigan Orchestra. It's all college kids.

As we walked on the stage to play the concert, one of the kids in the band came with a picture, and the picture was me with two little kids who were five and six years old. I'm trying to hold both of them, and their mother is trying to hold one up, and they're trying to squirm out and fall. Somebody took this picture backstage at the University of Michigan because I've played there more than any place, maybe 30-something years. He pointed at the picture. He said, "That's me and my brother."

It's a moment to see it and to be on the stage playing with them. I could remember the moment of their mama and trying to get them [unintelligible 00:14:32]. It is very moving.

Kousha Navidar: You did remember that picture, that moment?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Oh, yes, I remembered it. I didn't remember it as a picture. I remember when it happened.

Kousha Navidar: That's such a beautiful memory, and then to be able to play at the same time that person-- [crosstalk]

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Then we were playing, he was maybe 19 years old, 14 or 15 years later, which was short relative to the number of years that we played at the University of Michigan.

Kousha Navidar: Is there an age group that you especially like to work with? I'm sure all of them are wonderful in their own ways, but do you find that you connect or look forward to working with [crosstalk]

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: No, I like all the age groups. Man, I used to go to elementary schools in the morning. I like middle school, kind of puberty-aged kids. I love the high school kids, college, old people. I played in community service in all kinds of circumstances. I like them all. I play with company bands. I've played in homes where the people don't come to visit people. I play in prisons. The opportunity to play for people is a blessing, and it's been an honor. I've been blessed to have the opportunity to do it in so many ways. I love to play with a good elementary school band in the morning, man.

Kousha Navidar: What's that like? [laughs]

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: I can remember a lady. We were in the midwest, Nebraska, I think, and a lady came backstage. She said, "My kids have an off class," and it's at 7:00 in the morning, "Could you come play with them?" She said, "You know what? If you call me, I'll come." Man, we hung out till 3:00 in the morning then, and all of a sudden at like 6 o'clock, the woman calls and calls and calls. She just kept calling. I got up and she said, "It's me. We're 45 minutes away from the class, man." I got up and I went with this lady 45 minutes away to the class and just to see kids, they're there at 7:00 in the morning, man, playing.

I start to play with them, and one of the little kids says, "Wow, you're not bad. How long have you been playing?" I said, "About 45 years." When you're young and you hear that kind of number, man, it's like, "Damn, you still alive?" I love the feeling in the elementary school room, a band. I love when I could play with a young trumpet section or something. They don't know who you are. They don't care. It's just fun to be a part of the full cycle of playing music.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, absolutely. I'm curious, do you see any differences in the students of the most current generation that are studying music that you're working with versus older generations that you've worked with?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: No, I don't. The cell phones make a difference, and there's another level of entitlement, but it's not that great. It depends on the upbringing of the kids and the level of discipline that the adults have. I like the younger kids. There is differences in generations, but I don't experience it that much, as much as a person who teaches every day would be able to tell you.

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned cell phones, and I think it's super interesting that you're on Instagram and you fostered a good community on there. Have you always been into Instagram? How do you think about your presence online?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: No. I'm very much like an older person. My kids always tease me. I can't even see my icons on my phone. Some of my stuff is put up. Jazz at Lincoln Center things will be put up. Luigi is my man in Italy. He'll put stuff up, but I'm not up to speed with all of it. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm always so busy and working. I'm private. I don't really like to document everything I'm doing.

Kousha Navidar: It's interesting because there are so many musicians nowadays who are finding their way through digital platforms, and they are not just finding live concerts, but the communities that they're making are what give them their livelihood as musicians online. I'm wondering, what advice would you have for the next generation of young musicians that are specifically thinking about forging a career in music?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Learn how to play and believe in touching people with your presence, and use all of these tools. Don't develop a prejudice to the tools that exist to help you but remember, your community is whatever. To be a part of a community, everything has to be tactile. You have to be able to walk in a room and change the feeling in a room, in a mood with your sound. People will always support you. Use the technology to project what you are creating in a space. Don't use the technology to compensate for not being able to play, because it can also do that.

Kousha Navidar: That point that you bring up, not just about knowing your fundamentals, but also understanding the tone that you set in the room and making it tactile, that is something that jazz really taught me, I have to say. It is something that I think goes beyond music. Music is an avenue that you can learn that. What I think is super interesting is on your website, you write that your core beliefs are based on jazz fundamentals. There's freedom and individuality creatively, which you confer to improvisation. There's collective action and good manners, which you say are swing, which I love. There's acceptance, gratitude, and resilience, which is the blues. Do you think jazz has taught you anything else lately?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Man, jazz has taught me so much to be able to see, to deal with other people's perspectives, and to sit in the uncomfortable position of questioning the rightness or wrongness of what you think. Then ultimately, understanding that we're all a part of a cycle and there's not a right and a wrong in that way when it comes to many things about human beings and how they feel about living in the world. It's not like a scientific thing like you need water to live. That's a fact.

The underlying mechanics about whether you like a certain form or a certain feeling, or things you think socially. Jazz has taught me so many things in the music, the creativity of it, the freedom that it allows, the restrictions of the music. Mainly jazz is the belief in the creativity of other people, and to try to identify that, and to try to follow them. Attention to detail in the moment is also jazz. I could go on and on.

The music is so fantastic, so whatever problems I've had, they're with what I've done. It's never been with the music because there's so many great musicians. The music is such an innovation. It's such an innovative thing in the world that still is-- It still has not caught on the way that if it ever does, there'll be an unbelievable renaissance in the way the world views itself.

Kousha Navidar: Well, how do you see jazz evolving? Is there a specific part of the direction that it's moving that really excites you?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Yes. I think the next evolution in jazz will be that people will listen to it.

Kousha Navidar: Fair enough. Plenty of people, I think, could benefit from listening to it from the things that you're saying.

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: There you go. That's the evolution we want. That's the evolution we want to see.

Kousha Navidar: I'm thinking about not just the direction of jazz, but your direction too. Back in 1991, since you headlined last time in 1991, we found an interview you did with the Academy of Achievement, and they asked you what you're looking forward to. You were 29, and I love this answer. I just want to read it out to you because I felt so seen in this moment.

You said, "I want to learn how to really write jazz music because now, I function at 20% of my capability because I don't have the technique to write down what I hear, and see, and feel, so I got to work on that because I can really conceive of writing songs about animals, trying to write opera, write ballets. There's a lot I want to do. I'm sure I won't do it all." I thought that was just such a lovely response. What would you say to 29-year-old Wynton if you heard him say that now?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Man, keep working on what you could. When you get to be 62, you still got a lot to learn.

Kousha Navidar: I'm wondering-- Yes, go ahead.

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: It's endless. I'm glad I said something intelligent instead of something stupid.

Kousha Navidar: [laughs] Well, that was only one question of the interview. You'd have to read the rest, I'll tell you that.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: I'm wondering, how would you answer that question?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: That was well said.

Kousha Navidar: How would you answer that question today? What are you looking forward to now besides headlining at the Blue Note?

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: I would answer it the same way. I want to get deeper into it. Now, I would say I want to be more effective, a more effective agent for bringing people together in the world and finding those connections that will allow us to actually see how much we are all one, to continue to create art that actually shows you a thread that runs through a lot of our traditions and cultures, that elevates us and our humanity in a way that I think is worthy of people's listening time.

Kousha Navidar: Grammy and Pulitzer Prize-winning Wynton Marsalis is the managing and artistic director of Jazz at Lincoln Center. He has brought music to many lives. This week, he'll be bringing music to the Blue Note Jazz Club, headlining for the first time since 1991. Mr. Marsalis, thank you.

Mr. Wynton Marsalis: Man, thank you so much. It's a pleasure. A pleasure talking with you. Thank you.

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