[MUSIC- Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar, in for Alison Stewart today. Welcome back to the show. If you love dumplings and let's be real, who doesn't, then you might be aware of the exciting news from the past few weeks. Din Tai Fung, the Taiwanese restaurant chain famous for its dumplings, just opened a new location here in New York. Let's be real. Getting a reservation is, to put it mildly, difficult, but fear nothing because there are so many equally excellent places to get Shaolong, bao and dumplings in this city.

When it comes to dumplings, I am equal parts excited and hungry, which is the perfect state of mind for another segment of our Food For Thought series. For today's conversation around food, maybe you can guess we're going to be talking about the best places around our listening area for one of our favorite dippable, chopstickable, delicious delicacies, dumplings, whether that means that they're steamed, fried, or even soup.

Listeners, we want to hear your dumpling spot recommendations. Give us a call at 212-433-9692. That’s 212-433-WNYC, and hit us up with where you think are the best places to get dumplings in the city. Also, we would like to hear what you like about those establishments, what you'd suggest people order there, what kinds of outings you feel really call for dumplings. In my family, we celebrate by going to Dim Sum and getting dumplings. Is it date night? Is it celebrations? Is it big groups to share? Give us a call. Send us a text 212-433-9692. That’s 212433 WNYC.

Here, sitting right across the table from me, we have an expert to help us with this conversation. Grace Young is a food historian, Chinatown advocate, and also the author of several cookbooks, including Stir-Frying to the Sky's Edge: The Ultimate Guide to Mastery, with Authentic Recipes and Stories. Grace, hey, welcome back to All Of It.

Grace Young: Thank you so much.

Kousha Navidar: You are incredibly enthusiastic about the dumpling scene in this city. You sent our team so many great recommendations, some like mouth-watering photos of gyoza and soup dumplings from local spots. There's a post on Twitter detailing the costs of various dumpling assortments around the world. What is it about dumplings that excite you just as much as me?

Grace Young: Dumplings are the best comfort food in the world. I am a dumpling junkie [laughter] and I love all kinds of dumplings from soup dumplings to dim sum dumplings. You name the dumpling. I love it.

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk a little bit about the dumpling landscape before we get into the recommendations? What's included when you think about the fundamentals of dumplings? What makes a dumpling a dumpling?

Grace Young: What makes a dumpling a dumpling to me is it has to have a filling and it has to have a dough wrapping, some sort of wrapper, and be bite-sized. When we first start talking about this subject, somebody said, well, how about baos? How about, buns? I was like, no, no, no. For me, a dumpling has to be bite-size. I'm Cantonese. The ultimate dumplings for me are Cantonese dim sum. It's all about eating dumplings from steamed to boiled to pan fried. Can you see antifa fried?

Kousha Navidar: go along that spectrum. What are the different kinds of dumplings that exist? What categories are there of dumplings?

Grace Young: When you eat dim sum, the two dumplings, everybody generally orders that you judge a dim sum restaurant by are the shrimp dumpling, which in Cantonese is called har gow. That needs to have a translucent dough so that you can see the shrimp and you judge it by the shape and the pleats. A really experienced dim sum chef will make 12 pleats of the dough.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, it's 12 specifically?

Grace Young: Yes. This is a fancy restaurant in Hong Kong or Canton, Guangzhou, but in New York City, you can find restaurants have like seven, eight pleats. You can tell the machine-made ones because they have like two or three pleats and they're thick. You can't see the shrimp.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow. Interesting.

Grace Young: It's too thick.

Kousha Navidar: What's that second category?

Grace Young: Not second category, but the second type of dumpling is a siu mai, which is the pork dumpling. People judge a dim sum restaurant based on these two dumplings, how well they execute them. The siu mai should have a combination of pork and shrimp. Soe put shiitake mushrooms in it, too.

Kousha Navidar: We just got a text coming in. The calls are already lining up. This texture says Green bow on Bayard Street, biggest, best steamed veggie dumplings in the city. Also amazing soup dumplings. Are you familiar with that spot?

Grace Young: Absolutely. [crosstalk]

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk a little about it?

Grace Young: Yes. It's a Shanghainese restaurant and little mom and pop place in Chinatown. Their soup dumplings are outstanding.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. We've got a couple callers. Let's go to some calls. There's Charlie in Connecticut. Hey, Charlie, tell us what you think about dumplings.

Charlie: Hey, what's going on? Thanks for taking my call.

Kousha Navidar: Sure. You have a recommendation, it sounds like, right?

Charlie: Yes. There's a place in Norwalk called Food Hope Dumplings that we frequent. They've got outstanding soup dumplings and pretty awesome pan-fried vegetarian option as well.

Kousha Navidar: Charlie, thanks so much for that call. Shout out to Connecticut dumpling scene. He mentioned soup dumplings. Grace, I'd love to talk about soup dumplings for a bit. You refer to soup dumplings by a Chinese acronym, XLB xiaolongbao. What qualities make for especially good soup dumplings?

Grace Young: It has to have the thinnest skin in the world, thinnest dough. One of the restaurants that used to be very known for their soup dumplings was in Flushing, and they have restaurants in the city. It's called Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao. I ate there recently and was completely devastated that the dough is thick, and especially when they twist it at the top, too thick, too much in the mouth. It was just like, oh, my God.

The filling has to be juicy and there has to be soup. That's the whole trick of the soup dumpling, is the soup. Some of my favorite places in Chinatown, there's an amazing restaurant called Shanghai 21, and they make the traditional pork and crab meat or pork soup dumpling, but they also make a truffle soup dumpling, and that is to die for. Noodle Village in Chinatown also makes an amazing soup dumpling. Of course, there's Joe's Shanghai, which is famous in Chinatown. What else is there?

In Brooklyn, there's a little tiny mom-and-pop restaurant called Petite Dumpling, and they make a mala pork soup dumpling. They make all the traditional soup dumplings, but it's very rare to find a restaurant that's serving a spicy soup dumpling.

Kousha Navidar: Is mala a soup dumpling?

Grace Young: It has Sichuan peppercorns. Yes, it's incredible. I also like the soup dumplings at Asian Jewels Seafood Restaurant in Flushing, they make a fabulous pork and crab soup dumpling.

Kousha Navidar: I am writing all these things when you're saying them, just for listeners to know what I'm doing on the other side here. For the uninitiated, can you tell us the proper way to eat soup dumplings? It can be a logistical challenge to do it correctly. I learned, actually, when I used to live in San Francisco, I was told to take a little bite off the top and let things cool. Am I doing it correctly?

Grace Young: Yes, but to start with, when you're taking the soup dumpling from the steamer, I use my chopsticks, and I pick it up by that little twist knob at the top of the dumpling, and then very delicately transfer it to a Chinese soup spoon.

Kousha Navidar: Okay.

Grace Young: Sometimes restaurants will give you metal tongs. I don't want to use that because you could possibly pierce the dough with those tongs. I only use my chopsticks. Then they always serve the soup dumplings with black vinegar and finely, finely shredded fresh ginger. Then I always put a few strands of the ginger on top of the soup dumpling, and then drizzle a little bit of black vinegar, not too much. Then, like, you take a little bite. Then you have to very carefully just start sipping the broth. The most important thing not to do is to put the whole thing in your mouth because you could scald your mouth.

Kousha Navidar: I do scald my mouth. [laughs]

Grace Young: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. I need to change.

Grace Young: That's dangerous. You have to just take a little nibble and then start to sip it. Then gradually you can eat the whole dumpling.

Kousha Navidar: Got it. That is a great process to get all of the flavors possible from it. Doing it all in one bite, ironically is not the best way to go. Listeners, do you have. Oh, you're going to say something else, Grace. Go ahead.

Grace Young: Near WNYC in Soho, there's actually also a great place, a little pricier, but Pinch Chinese makes a fabulous soup dumpling. It's made to order. Shanghai 21 also. This is a very important point because if you make the soup dumpling way in advance, the dough gets soggy. These restaurants, Shanghai 21 and Pinch Chinese, there's a glass window where you can see the chefs actually wrapping them. It's so beautiful. It's masterful to see them do it.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. We just got a text here. I think your last recommendation almost hits, but a listener wants to know, can you recommend good soup dumpling restaurants outside Chinatown in downtown or midtown Manhattan? Any thoughts there?

Grace Young: Downtown or midtown Manhattan? Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I have to think about that for a second.

Kousha Navidar: We'll think about it. We're going to take a break in a little bit. We have a couple more questions, but we'll see if we can get back to that. In the meantime, we do have a couple of calls I'd love to take. Marissa in Greenwich Village. Hey, Marissa, welcome to the show.

Marissa: Oh, yes. Hi. Hi. Hello, Grace Young. Love your books.

Grace Young: Aww.

Marissa: My favorite, it's always been Joe's Shanghai. I have felt that they have the best dumplings, the soup dumplings there. I know they used to be on Pell Street. They've moved a couple of blocks away. Anyway, that is my favorite in Chinatown, and I'm glad you also mentioned it as one of your favorites.

Grace Young: It's an excellent choice, one of the best places for soup dumplings in the city. The reason why I don't promote it too much is there's often a line going into Joe's Shanghai. I like to highlight some of the businesses that are fabulous that people might not know about, but for sure, Joe's Shanghai has been a classic for years.

Kousha Navidar: Marissa, we really appreciate the call. Another text just came through asking about the truffle dumpling that you talked about earlier. Is that vegetarian?

Grace Young: No.

Kousha Navidar: Okay.

Grace Young: It's definitely with pork, but the black truffle is really an extraordinary flavor combination for a soup dumpling. It is really to die for.

Kousha Navidar: We've also got another text here I just want to read. It says, "Since the cost of dining out is a significant barrier for many dumpling enthusiasts, let's note that frozen dumplings are a solid, economical option, especially for sturdy variations like potstickers."

Got another text here that says, "House of Joy, Pell Street, best dim sum, better than some other options." Then let's see here. We've got one more caller, before we go to a break, I want to talk to Judy in Kansas. Hey, Judy, welcome to the show.

Judy: Oh, thank you for taking my call. I wanted to do a shout-out for Uma's Uzbeki restaurant in Rockaway Beach. She's got really great butternut squash dumplings. I think also mushroom, maybe, but all her food is fantastic and very vegetarian-friendly and delicious. She's back there in the kitchen blogging it out. That's Uma's Restaurant, Rockaway Beach.

Kousha Navidar: Judy, let me ask you a follow-up there. Uzbeki dumplings. Talk to me about those.

Judy: Well, she's got all kinds of-- She makes the squash with pastries. She also makes them with dumplings. She makes really great salads, but the dumplings are one of her specialties. All the food is very fresh, very light, as Grace was talking about, not to, not such heavy dough, not too heavy of a skin. It's from the Asian steps.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Judy, thank you so much for that call. Shout out to Uzbeki dumplings. Uma's in Rockaway Beach. We are talking about the best spots in the city to get dumplings, dumplings of all types. We're here with Grace Young, the cookbook author, the activist, and the food historian. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we might have a live taste test of a dumpling that Grace brought, so be sure to stay with us and maybe bring some lunch with you while you're listening too. This is All Of It. Stick around.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. On WNYC. We are talking about the best spots in the city and the places around the city to get dumplings. We're here with Grace Young, the cookbook author, the activist, and the food historian.

If you're listening right now and you have a spot that you want to recommend or there's a specific dumpling that you love that you want to shout out, give us a call. Send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That’s 212-433-WNYC. Where is your favorite spot in the city to get dumplings? Maybe what is the occasion that always brings your family back to get dim sum or to get soup dumplings or any kind of dumpling? Give us a call. 212-433-9692.

Grace, during the break, we got a text and I'd like to ask you this question, and then I'd like to offer New York City's collective hive mind to maybe answer it. The text says, "Wondering if your guest or other callers have an answer to this question. My absolute favorite is the classic Joe's Shanghai. I have developed a serious pork allergy and haven't found a good veggie or pescatarian soup dumpling option. Any recommendations?" A serious pork allergy. Can't do pork anymore. Looking for a good soup dumpling that's veggie or pescatarian. This is a question to everyone. Grace, start with you. Any thoughts on that?

Grace Young: First of all, there are a number of places that make a chicken dumpling, and I believe there are a few restaurants out there. I think Petite dumpling does a vegetable soup dumpling and I think Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao does a vegetarian dumpling.

Kousha Navidar: Well, shout out to those places. Listeners if you can help out our texter as well, you want to call in, give a shout out for a veggie or chicken, like you said, soup dumplings, let us know. 212-433-9692. I've got right in front of me here this black thermos that you brought, Grace.[laughter] It feels a little warm. I think you brought me something to try, right?

Grace Young: Well, I just thought it was crazy to be talking about dumplings and not just to be talking about them, you have to eat a dumpling, but I racked my brain to figure out--

Kousha Navidar: That was me opening it up right now. There's steam in the control room right now.

Grace Young: Yes. I can't bring you steamed dumplings or soup dumplings because they would die, or a pan-fried pot sticker. This is a what I call a mochi dumpling. It's a sweet dumpling. It's the only dessert dumpling, to me, that is really special.

Kousha Navidar: While I take a bite of this, can you describe what it looks like for listeners?

Grace Young: Yes. It looks like a little tiny ping pong ball, a little small one. Now, normally this comes from Maysome Cafe, which is one of Chinatown's most special restaurants. It dates from 1967. It's very old school. They're one of the few places that make fresh mochi sweet dumplings, which in Cantonese are called tang yuan. They either have a filling of roasted peanuts that have been ground with sugar-- You have such a great smile on your face. [laughs]

Kousha Navidar: It's so big right now. I don't know if I should chew with my mouth open so that people can hear it, but suffice to say--

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: [laughs] No. I'm being told no by my control room right now. It is so yummy and warm. The mochi texture really comes through beautifully.

Grace Young: Normally in the restaurant, they boil the dumplings and you get it within one minute. Tested this two days ago. I went to the restaurant, had them put it in the thermos, and I waited about 45 minutes because I was trying to time how long it would take me to go from Chinatown to WNYC and wait in the room to see you in the green room. I thought, not bad.

Kousha Navidar: It is so well-timed. Can you keep talking for like 20 more seconds? Can you give a shoutout to that restaurant again? I want to take another bite.

Grace Young: It's Mee Sum Cafe, 26 Pell Street. This restaurant is so easy to miss. I have to say I didn't know about it until the pandemic, but it's been there for so long and it's such a staple of Chinatown. The owner, Don Moy, prides himself in never raising the prices. Locals love this. When you go there, don't say mochi dumpling because nobody will understand. People barely are speaking English there. On the menu it says sticky rice ball soup. You can get the roasted peanut dumpling, or they do black sesame that's been ground and mixed with sugar, and it's just crazy good.

Kousha Navidar: It is crazy good. Is having a sweet dumpling like that normal or typical?

Grace Young: Yes, it is, but not many places make it by hand, and it's simmered in ginger and osmanthus flowers. The osmanthus flowers in Chinese culture has a very sweet, mild flavor. If you had osmanthus tea, it actually tastes a little bit like a peach, but it's very cleansing for the body. It removes toxins, and the ginger, invigorating. It's good for you.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, great.

Grace Young: [laughs]

Kousha Navidar: It tastes good for my soul. It's good to hear this. Good for my body, too. Also, thank you for becoming my favorite guest I've ever had for bringing me some soup dumplings. Not soup dumpling, but sweet sticky rice right there. It is so wonderful. Thank you. Let's go to Paul in Brooklyn. Hey, Paul. Welcome to the show.

Paul: Hey, how are you? Thanks for having me. There's a spot that I got turned on to during the pandemic that started selling frozen dumplings because they couldn't seat anybody. It's called Bund on Broadway in Astoria, B-U-N-D, as in dog. They have great veggie dumplings, all sorts. Soup dumplings, but I bought a little steamer from them, and you just keep them in the freezer and cook them up in, like, 14 minutes.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful, Paul. Thank you so much. Shout out to Bund on Broadway in Astoria. We've got a lot of texts coming in. A lot of people want to know where to go in Sunset Park for dumplings. Sunset Park, any ideas, Grace?

Grace Young: Yes. I love East Harbor Seafood Palace. That is really outstanding. I think it's even been mentioned on Michelin.

Kousha Navidar: Let's also get into wontons. What makes a wonton? Talk about that with respect to dumplings.

Grace Young: Wontons are a favorite- I call a classic Cantonese fast food. It's normally a shrimp-pork mixture. Some people do just shrimp, but normally shrimp and pork. The wonton doughs, the skins come factory-made. One of my favorite places to eat it is great New York Noodle Town, which has been around New York for over 40 years. It's classic to have wonton noodle soup. Noodle Village on Mott Street also makes an outstanding wonton.

My all-time favorite, it's crazy good, is Maxi's Noodle in Flushing. I was turned on by my friend, Chef Alex Au-Yeung from Texas, because every time he'd come up from Houston- he's a James Beard nominated chef. He can make everything-- he would always bring back maxi noodle wontons when he would fly back to Houston. I was like, what gives?

They're bigger than everybody else's wontons. Most wonton are bite-sized. These are, like two or three times the size, almost like a big ping pong ball. 90% of the filling is shrimp. They use different kinds of shrimp and different sizes of shrimp, and they use 10% pork. I spoke with the owner, and she divulged this to me. They don't hand chop it, but when they mix together the filling, they use a mixer, and the paddle might crush some pieces of the shrimp. You get whole chunks of shrimp and some that have been a little broken up.

Kousha Navidar: Great texture.

Grace Young: Their wonton skins are specially made by a company, which you won't divulge me, but they are so silky. It's just unbelievable. Typically, wontons are served with noodles. They have their noodles specially sourced, and they serve it with a duck egg noodle that is so al dente that it's just unbelievable. It's phenomenal.

Kousha Navidar: We're getting a question here that says, will you please post a list on the website of all the dumpling recipes restaurants your guest has mentioned? I'm here to tell you folks listening that we post transcripts a couple of days after each segment. Wait, a couple of days? Go back to our website, come to this segment, which will be posted there. Everything we're saying right now will be posted there. If you are reading it and you're listening right now. Hello. Thank you for checking back. Love that. Got another couple questions I wanted to get through from our listeners before we finish here. People are really interested in gluten-free dumpling options. Any ideas there, Grace?

Grace Young: Gluten-free? Let me think for a second. I was thinking about vegetarian dumplings before I came on today. The har gow dough is normally made with tapioca starch, but there is a little bit of wheat starch in there, blah, blah, blah. Most of the dumplings are made with flour.

Kousha Navidar: Gluten might be tough. If you have an idea, give us a text or give us a call. There are some other people asking about vegan dumpling options, and we have Sophie in Brooklyn who might have an idea of that. Sophie, hi. Welcome to the show.

Sophie: Hi. Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: What's your idea?

Sophie: Yes. There's amazing all-vegan dim sum at Bodhi Kosher Vegetarian on 77 Mulberry Street. They have incredible soup dumplings. Usually, the soup dumplings are made with gelatin, so it's hard to find even vegetarian ones, but super good.

Kousha Navidar: Sophie, thank you so much for that. Shout out to Bodhi Kosher. Really appreciate that recommendation. Grace, you were saying some veggie dumplings you were thinking about as well, right?

Grace Young: Yes. There's a wonderful old restaurant in Chinatown on Pell Street called Vegetarian Dim Sum House, and they have a watercress dumpling that's served with their house sauce that's unbelievably good. It's not on the menu, so you have to ask for it. They also do a snow pea leaf dumpling. Their shrimp dumpling is fabulous because they're not using shrimp. They're using a mock meat and mushroom. That's quite good.

At Petite Dumpling, which I mentioned before, they make a spinach dumpling where they color the dough with spinach juice. It has spinach, of course, napa cabbage, some vermicelli, and I think a little taro root in there and some wood ear. At Dim Sum Gogo, they have an incredible creative selection of vegetarian dumplings. They do a three-star that has jicama, lotus root, and cabbage, and they color the dough with beet juice. It looks like a jewel.

Kousha Navidar: Wow.

Grace Young: They make mushroom dumplings. I love their edamame dumplings. They really have a very impressive selection of vegetarian.

Kousha Navidar: All right. I am adequately hungry, so I think this is a good time to put a pin in it so we can all take a break and go eat some more dumplings. We've been here with Grace Young, the cookbook author, the activist, and the food historian. It has been a pleasure talking to you about dumplings. Thanks again for bringing me some. I really appreciate it. Thanks to all the callers. Grace, thanks to you.

Grace Young: Thank you.

 

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