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Allison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart. Fifth Avenue is known for luxury fashion with high-end boutiques like Cartier and Louis Vuitton, upscale department stores like Saks Fifth Avenue and Bergdorf's. In the 1800s, fashionable folks would be found at Ladies Miles, a commercial area of shops south of Madison Square Park. It was the first location of Macy's and Lord & Taylor, and it was anchored by New York's first department store, AT Stewart. No relation to me. With these stores and others that followed were opened and run by men. These cathedrals to retail emerged as spaces where women could wield power on both sides as shoppers and as workers, ultimately, in some cases, as presidents. A new book explores three women who rose to the highest ranks of three landmark department stores, Bonwit Teller, Henri Bendel, and Lord & Taylor, as well as the shift from Ladies Miles to the Fifth Avenue corridor we know today. The book is called When Women Ran Fifth Avenue: Glamour and Power at the Dawn of American Fashion. It was written by Julie Satow, and we have welcomed her to the show before when she talked to us about The Plaza Hotel. Welcome back, Julie.

Julie Satow: Thank you so much for having me. It's really fun.

Allison Stewart: Listeners, we want to know, do you have a favorite department store memory? What was your favorite New York department store and why? Did you shop or work at one of the three featured stores, Bonwit Teller, Lord & Taylor, Henri Bendel? If so, we'd love to hear from you. Are you a fan of department store window displays? What is your favorite? Give us a call or text. 2123433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can reach out on social media, @allofitwnyc. 1838, Le Bon Marche in Paris was the first credited with being the first world department store. When did the Ladies Mile actually begin in the States?

Julie Satow: At the turn of the 20th century, you really started to see all these huge, massive, wonderful department stores opening. The first was actually on Chambers Street, and pretty soon, though, you started to see it grow up all along Sixth Avenue and around the flatiron. You had all sorts of stores that some people might remember but are mostly gone now today.

Allison Stewart: Why did they call it Ladies Mile?

Julie Satow: You have to understand, these department stores were totally revolutionary. Before that, you really had dry goods stores, maybe small boutiques, but nothing like these huge emporiums that were really just had grandeur and glamour and glitz and these huge windows. It kind of spurred this whole new notion of window shopping. Before that, it wasn't really a thing. All of a sudden, you had just hundreds, sometimes hundreds of thousands of women congregating in front of these stores, window shopping, gathering in public. That's where the moniker came from.

Allison Stewart: It's so interesting. On 6th Avenue, if you're standing in front of what was Bed Bath & Beyond and you look up, you can see the big windows, you can see the entrance.

Julie Satow: Absolutely. Those were all department stores.

Allison Stewart: What do these stores and even the act of shopping provide for women of the era?

Julie Satow: Back then, it was considered dangerous or impolite for women to congregate by themselves in public. They had to have male chaperones. This really gave women an excuse to congregate, to socialize, to be together. It also gave them the power of the wallet. That was something relatively new in that era where women were in charge. They could be buying things. Male managers, male clerks had to serve them. That was a new power dynamic, something really exciting. Then, obviously, from the employee perspective, the stores also provided a lot of wonderful opportunities.

Allison Stewart: Why did the shift head uptown, head up Fifth Avenue?

Julie Satow: New York was heading up Fifth Avenue, right? New York was growing. As it grew northward up towards Central Park the stores started to follow. Actually, Bendel's was one of the first stores. I think it was like 1914. It moved up to 57th Street. That was pretty revolutionary. No other stores were up there back then. It was much more residential, but it sort of followed the sort of upper class and how they began congregating uptown.

Allison Stewart: We are talking to Julie Satow. She wrote When Women Ran Fifth Avenue about the women who ruled the retail world. Listeners, we'd love to hear your favorite department store memory. What was your favorite New York City department store and why? Did you work or shop at one of the three featured stores in the book, Bonwit Teller, Lord & Taylor, and Henri Bendel? If so, we'd love to hear from you. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in or you can text us. Now, you covered real estate in New York for a long time, and your first book was about the building, about The Plaza. What made you decide to focus on the people inside the buildings this time?

Julie Satow: The Plaza was obviously a story of a building, and it was a social history of New York, but I really wanted to push myself as a writer and focus on people and characters. It was much more challenging, but also so fascinating and rewarding, really getting to know these three women and so many other women, too, that were important, and I cover, but maybe not quite as in-depth as the three main characters.

Allison Stewart: We're going to get into three main characters, but just generally, overall, what were you looking for when you were deciding who to profile?

Julie Satow: I stumbled across the first two women, Dorothy Shaver of Lord & Taylor and Geraldine Stutts of Bendel's, and then I found Hortense Odlum of Bonwit Teller. I was just shocked at the fact that these stores were these places where women could have such fulsome careers at a time when that was so incredibly rare. I didn't know that. I knew about Bloomingdale's or Macy's. I'd heard of Rowland Macy's or the Bloomingdale brothers or whoever, but I had never realized that these were essentially female universes.Yes, the men may have had their names on the building, but these were very feminist places where women, as consumers and also as bosses. When I discovered that they had made these, the highest echelons in these stores of presidents, I just found that very fascinating.

Allison Stewart: Let's talk to Sharon, who's calling in from Manhattan. Hi.

Sharon: Hi.

Allison Stewart: Glad to have you on the air. What's going on?

Sharon: So glad to have you back. I have a great story about Bonwit Teller. My mom, often, we would get dressed when I was younger. We would go on picnics or go out to little restaurants. There was this one Sunday, we were supposed to meet up with a friend of hers, and the friend didn't call, didn't show up. My mom was never one to waste a day or the opportunity to have a good time. She said, "Let's go to Fifth Avenue." We had lunch. She went to Bonwit Teller, I still remember this, she bought a purple dress. That's one of my favorite memories of my mom. I actually have a shoe addiction, thanks to her.

Allison Stewart: Thank you for the call. Love that you remember the purple dress. All right, we brought up Bonwit Teller. Hortense?

Julie Satow: Hortense, yes.

Allison Stewart: Hortense Odlum. She was from a Mormon family in Utah, and she fell into her position through her husband initially. How did her husband come to own Bonwit Teller? Let's start there.

Julie Satow: Floyd Odlum was her husband. He was a Wall Street tycoon. He was one of the few people who made a ton of money during The Great Depression. He had bought a bunch of businesses, and Bonwit Teller was one of the businesses, and he was about to close it. It was doing really badly. It was almost bankrupt. Hortense, basically, he felt guilty that he was going to fire all these people. I mean, it employed about 800 people. He knew in the Depression, they'd probably never get other jobs. It would be really difficult.

He asked his wife, who had never had a paying job before, she was a mom of two, a suburban stay-at-home mom, if she'd go to the store and maybe give him some insights about what he could do to improve the business. She went in there, and she had had experiences as a shopper, as your caller just mentioned. We've all been in those stores, and she had so many wonderful ideas, and she really took the business from what was an essentially failing store to one of the most successful stores in the country.

Allison Stewart: What did she do particularly well?

Julie Satow: For instance, she realized hats. In the 1930s, everyone wore hats, but the way stores had organized it, hats were way upstairs in some random part of the store, and no one could ever find them. She was like, "Oh, women buy things on impulse. Hats should be moved down to the main floor by the entryway." When customers come in, they're going to notice a hat, and they might just buy it. The sale of hats at Bonwit Teller surged through the roof. That was just one example of many things she kind of realized as a woman and a shopper what made sense when the men didn't realize it.

Allison Stewart: Despite her accomplishments, she ended her career with regret. What did she feel like she lost?

Julie Satow: 1934, she becomes president of Bonwit Teller, the first woman to be president of a major department store. It's a very lonely experience. We talk about now how hard it is for women to balance work and life. 1934, it was even harder, and she faced a lot of challenges. Even though she was incredibly successful with her career, she had a lot of personal turmoil I get into in the book with her children and her husband and her marriage. She really came to blame her career for a lot of that and feel like she made a lot of public pronouncements that women should not work outside the home, and she felt like that was a real mistake in her life, which was very complicated to write about.

Allison Stewart: Let's take some more calls. Let's talk to Ben from Tarrytown. Hi, Ben. Thanks for calling All of It.

Ben: Hey, how's it going?

Allison Stewart: Going well. What's up?

Ben: I worked at Bloomingdale's when I first moved to the city in about 2006, and I worked there for about five years. I was an actor at the time, so I was kind of going back and forth to auditions during the day, and everybody knew. Everybody had kind of a side hustle while they were working there, too. There were always plenty of people working in it. Just working there gave me a foothold being a part of the daily grind.

I was in my early 20s, and the store felt like a family, and the managers kind of were surrogate parents. I didn't know how to sign up for healthcare, anything like that. It was like the first job where I had to do any of that stuff. They were helping me through the process of that and 401ks, and I'd bring friends in who needed a job, who were coming to the city, and kind of needed a place to be their shepherd as they were first finding their legs in the city. It became that place for a few of my friends.

I still keep in touch with a lot of the people that I met there, people that I never would have met had I not worked there, because we came from very different backgrounds, but we all worked in that store, either on the sales floor or support staff or recovery, they were called, or logistics. It was a big place. Lots of people in and out, and it felt like a family. It was kind of nice for a few years there.

Allison Stewart: Thanks for calling. Let's talk to Norrie from Queens. Hi, Nori. Thanks for calling All of It.

Nori: Hi. How are you?

Allison Stewart: Doing great.

Nori: That's good. I'm glad you're all here talking about this fabulous nostalgia, this epic New York shopping and iconicness of what the world comes and shops in New York for. I'm a big Lord & Taylor fan. Still am. Forever will be. I have to hold back tears, because I was there when the Fifth Avenue, 41st, 40th Street, Fifth Avenue location, flagship store closed down for Lord & Taylor. I was there till the end, taking the last pictures of the outside where they had this heart and we were here kind of thing, Lord & Taylor. On their stores no longer were these beautiful window displays but just like a message to New Yorkers and to the world that we were here.

Allison Stewart: You know what? I'm going to dive in, Nori, because we have a couple of women to get to in the book. I really appreciate that. I appreciate Lord & Taylor. My mother used to say, "Let's go visit Mr. Lord and Mr. Taylor." Let's talk about Dorothy Shaver. She wasn't really ambitious, but she had this little doll collection that she made, and the people from Lord & Taylor's discovered her.

Julie Satow: Yes, she was a fascinating woman. She arrived in 1919 in New York City from Arkansas with her sister. They basically had a suitcase between them, and that's it. Her sister was a wonderful artist, and she made these dolls. Dorothy had such a good business sense that they basically started a business.

In 1919, they had a store on 47th Street where they sold dolls, and it was incredibly successful. They sold to Lord & Taylor. Her sister got sick of making the dolls, so Dorothy ended up getting a job at Lord& Taylor in 1924, and by 1945, she was president of the store. A really amazing feat. She was America's number one career woman, according to Life Magazine. She was a big deal.

I should say these stores were these cultural touch points where women from all over the place, or employees, all different price points could come there. I mean, they were just like the colors we're talking about. You had employees from all over the country. You had people, very wealthy shoppers. You had bargain basement shoppers. It was really a big amalgam and a cultural place where lots of different people could come together.

Allison Stewart: Her background is interesting. As you said, she was from Arkansas, and she had relatives who were part of the Ku Klux Klan. You go into this episode in the book. What were her views on race?

Julie Satow: She never spoke overtly, but you can see from her actions, as she became more successful, she got very politically involved. She spoke out against McCarthyism during the Red Scare in the '50s. She created these awards, the Lord & Taylor awards, which were very big deals, where she would invite thinkers like Einstein. She had dancers like Twyla Tharp came, inventors, all sorts of people. She was involved in the NAACP. I think you can see from her actions that she ashooed those views, but, yes, her grandfather was quite a major leader of the KKK in Arkansas, so he was very proud of it. Confusing background.

Allison Stewart: Got a couple of good texts. "When I was young, underpaid administrative assistant in the 1970s, I love to shop at Bonwit Teller. Makeup costs the same at Bonwit Teller as it did in any other store, so I could pretend I could afford to shop there. Sometimes I really could. If I shopped wisely and I knew what I was looking for, I could buy a pair of leather gloves for $22 or maybe even a pretty white blouse. Love that store, and I bought at least one hat."

Someone else said, "Hi, I'm Kristen. I had an amazing privilege of working for the most talented window designers at Henri Bendel. It was my first freelance job while at FIT. For my first project, they let me play and choose any props or designs to display in the dress department. Best memory. It shaped my life and career in design. This was about 1985." We've arrived at Bendel's. Geraldine Stutts, she worked at Glamour. She worked with an up-and-coming illustrator name Andy Warhol. What made her pivot from magazines to retail?

Julie Satow: She was working at Glamour. She was the shoe editor, which is Andy did a lot of illustrations of shoes for the magazine, and she was recruited by this guy, Maxey Jarman, who owned a shoe company. He eventually bought Bendel's. In 1959, she was only 33 years old, he installed her as president of Bendel's. It was a very old school store, very beautiful and expensive, but it was very fuddy duddy and old fashioned.

She was incredibly chic and forward-thinking. She revamped the store and made it where all of Capote's swans would shop and Mick Jagger and everyone with anyone. Yes, the windows were incredible at Bendel's. She was so famous for letting people play. She would hire young people and she would just let them do their thing. As the woman you texted said, doing the windows, they just had total freedom to do incredible things, and the Bendel's windows were amazing during that era.

Allison Stewart: Let's talk to Laird from Pelham, who worked for Bendel's. Hi, Laird. Thanks for calling.

Laird: Thank you. Hi, Alison. It's so great to hear your voice again. I'm a longtime listener and can relate to your personal injury, which is a whole nother story that we can talk about some other time. I grew up going to Bendel's with my mother. She would take me. It was part of a New York City treat experience. Then after college, I went into the retail business and landed at Bendel's, starting as a sweater girl working at the sweater bar in the days when maybe the author remembers, Susan Falk was president, and then went on to become a buyer there, which I have to say, out of all the buying jobs I ever had, it was the most amazing experience, and I'm nostalgic about that special store. There really was nothing like it.

The goal was not to always buy tons of things. The goal was to buy beautiful, one-of-a-kind, unique things. We used to have open sea days where anybody who was creative and could make something would come. As buyers, we would see all these different kinds of kinds of things, whether they were garments or hats or depending on what you were buying. It was such a creative explosion literally every day there because the pressure was about being unique. Sometimes I think the retail world has gotten so far away from that. It's too bad.

Allison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in and sharing your memories. As we wrap up, these department stores have shuttered, Bonwit Teller in the '80s for Trump Tower with 18 and 19. The other two closed. Why are we seeing the decline of the department store?

Julie Satow: It really began in the 1950s with suburbanization, as they started opening these branch stores everywhere that hurt their downtown stores and their businesses and the expansions. Then in the early 1960s, we saw Target, Walmart, Kmart all opening, that also hurt their businesses, and then, of course, online shopping. It's interesting Bonwit Teller is where Trump Tower now stands. Bendel's is no longer, and Lord & Taylor is now the headquarters for Amazon, which is very ironic and fitting, I feel.

Allison Stewart: This text says, "I hated working in retail, but Henri Bendel's pneumatics tube system at the 57th Street location made it totally worth it for me. So steampunk."

Julie Satow: That's amazing.

Allison Stewart: Before we wrap up, was there anything that you learned from these three women?

Julie Satow: Oh, so much I learned, it was amazing. Growing up, I always knew of the women's movement in the 1960s and the '70s, but I really didn't appreciate that as far back as 1906, for instance, I had a buyer from San Francisco in her early 20s in 1906, and she's traveling to Paris on her own and earning enough money that she's moved her family out of the Mission District to a beautiful house across the bay.

There were these women from decades before I even understood that were going through such similar things and breaking glass ceilings and doing amazing things, and also the fashion. I mean, I just didn't really appreciate how the american fashion industry started and how important that was and the role department stores played.

Allison Stewart: I live near Bonwit and Bendel in my early '80s. I love Bonwit's because the store always made a warm welcome, whether you were wealthy or not. I bought my wedding outfit there, and it still hangs in storage in my home 42 years later.

Julie Satow: Amazing.

Allison Stewart: My guest has been Julie Satow. She's the author of When Women Ran Fifth Avenue. The book is available now. Julie, thanks for joining us.

Julie Satow: Oh, thanks so much for having me. This is great.

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