[intro music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. I want you to picture this, you're sitting at your movie theater ready to watch a brand-new Sci-Fi movie. The trailers are over, and the screen fades to black. The house lights dim, and then you hear this. [film score]

Kousha Navidar: You know you are going to be in for a heck of a ride. Film scores are the connective tissue that bring a movie to life. A good film score can build suspense and add color to a story. Just imagine Star Wars without that iconic John Williams' score, it's pretty hard to do, or Rocky without that epic theme song, or Jaws without that menacing tuba solo. Plus, a bad film score can really take you out of your movie experience. It cuts both ways. To talk about what makes film scores so great, we're joined by Nick Marcus, the host of the Film Scorer Podcast. Over the past several years, Nick has spoken to some of his favorite composers, from big blockbuster films like Oppenheimer to smaller indie and foreign films.

Listeners, we want to hear from you. We want to hear about what you love to hear in a good film score and what film scores you love. We're talking about your favorite film scores. Give us a call, send us a text. 212-433-9692. Do you have a film score that you keep going back to, or maybe there's a film with a terrible score that ruined your viewing experience? Maybe there's one film composer that you think is the GOAT, the greatest of all time. Maybe you're a musician who scored for music and film and television before. What makes a good film score, in your opinion? Share your story. 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. To help go through that journey with us, I'm going to introduce Nick Marcus. Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Nick Marcus: Kousha, thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. Really excited to talk about some film scores, some film music, some composers.

Kousha Navidar: Me, too. I want to start with your story a little bit because we talked about in the beginning, sitting in a theater, the lights dim, and then you hear Star Wars, that theme song. If you think in your past, what movie did that for you? What's a film score that you listen to that still sticks with you today?

Nick Marcus: I think as far as a formative film music experience, and I think most people have these, was actually the film Drive, the Nicolas Winding Refn film scored by Cliff Martinez. I saw that in the theater the moment I got home. It was a late night viewing. Got home midnight, 01:00 AM, bought it immediately on Amazon. I don't know when this was, 10, 12 years ago, and I cannot tell you how many times I listened to that. So many people, I think, callers, people texting in, It's going to be those formative experiences that hit them when they were 10 years old, 15, 20, and have just stuck with them ever since.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Drive, the 2011 action thriller that stars Ryan Gosling, right? That's the movie that you're referring to?

Nick Marcus: That's exactly. I got close with how long ago it was.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, totally. Yes, absolutely. Do you remember what it was about that soundtrack that really stuck with you? What keeps you coming back to it?

Nick Marcus: I think part of it was the licensed songs that were used. It was when there was-- I think it's called, a New Retro Synthwave that just started breaking to the mainstream. A few of those songs really caught my attention. Then it was the score itself. I don't really know what it was about it in the moment. I think I was just so swept up with the film, all the elements of it. Then this is so crucial to a great film score, is the ability to evoke the film when you hear it again, to bring those memories, those emotions, the imagery of what's going on when you hear a particular cue.

Kousha Navidar: Kind of like the same way that the smell of a food might evoke memories. You're saying that the sound of a soundtrack might evoke the--

Nick Marcus: Yes, that's exactly it.

Kousha Navidar: That's a lovely way of thinking about it. What made you want to create your own podcast about film scores?

Nick Marcus: It's a long and winding road because I first started off actually doing very short reviews on Instagram, where I'd be listening to scores and just type something up, 100, 200 words. At some point, a composer of a very small indie film reached out to me, saw that I had mentioned his score, and was like, "Hey, do you want to talk about it?" I was like, "Yes, sure." I think this was in September of 2020. The pandemic's still raging. I've got a spare room in the back of the apartment I was renting, and went, "All right, I can turn that into my makeshift studio."

It blew up from there. It's been almost four years at this point, maybe 80 interviews or so, and it's still going. I wrapped up my latest season two weeks ago. In the two weeks since, I've gotten, I don't know, maybe 10 emails from composers and agents asking for more interviews, and I go, "I'd love to do it, but I need a break."

Kousha Navidar: Wow. There is a lot to unpackage with film scores and the impact that they have on the audience and that kind of lasting feeling of what you're describing. Let's hear from some folks. Let's go to John in Mamaroneck, New York. John, hey, welcome to the show.

John: Hey, thanks for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. What film score sticks out for you?

John: Well, I was calling about the film score that, in an otherwise perfect movie, didn't quite make my cut, and it's The Princess Bride.

Kousha Navidar: That is not inconceivable. Tell us why. What is it about the soundtrack?

John: Well, in an otherwise perfect movie, it feels like the soundtrack was done by one guy on a synthesizer in his basement, epic medieval love story with pirates and André the Giant. All this memorable stuff going on, and then just like some guy plunking away on a Casio.

Kousha Navidar: It sounds like that was endearing to you. Like, it wasn't an awful film score. It was just kind of maybe not [unintelligible 00:06:57].

John: Well, now when I hear it, it feels so-- It wasn't endearing to me. It actually sort of kills the film for me a lot of the times when I watch it. Makes it feel like it didn't quite live up to its potential.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you so much for bringing that up, John, and for clarifying that, because I think that's a really good point. A lot of folks can easily say, "Yes, I can see how a good film score would help," but can you talk a little bit, Nick, about what John is saying there, about how it takes him out? What makes a bad film score bad? How does it impact the movie?

Nick Marcus: That's an interesting example as well. I think, particularly the time period, you had films like Legend and Ladyhawke, I think, which both had tangerine dream scores, fantasy films, medieval settings that a lot of people have a similar reaction that John had with The Princess Bride. I think something like that, you're seeing a fantasy film, seeing a medieval film, you're expecting a particular type of music to go along with it, and so the anachronistic nature of it, maybe not meeting your expectations as a viewer, that's certainly something that hits and creates a film score that for the listener, for the viewer, isn't going to work.

I think a lot of other times, outside of that, of it not having a palette that someone necessarily likes, All Quiet on the Western Front, which won an Oscar in 2023, a score by Volker Bertelmann, there's a main motif there that's this really loud siren sound, almost. It's an early 20th-century harmonium that's played through a giant amp stack. For some people, for me, it is this terrifying sound that I think is really like this harbinger of doom. For a lot of other people, it's annoying. It takes them out of the film. There's the aspects of the music palette itself that pull people out.

Then there's certainly other times where perhaps the music is kind of really obvious. Oh, you have a sad scene, let's have a sad piano. I think it doesn't respect the viewer enough to know, "Look, I already understand what's happening. The film, the cinematography, the actors performances are already doing enough. You don't need to get anymore.

Kousha Navidar: It's a little too on the notes, you're saying?

Nick Marcus: Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: You shared a list with us of some of your favorite film scores across different genres, from big blockbusters to smaller indie films. Let's go through some of them. Let's talk first about Conan the Barbarian, the 1982 film starring Arnold Schwarzenegger. This score is from Basil Poledouris. Let's listen to the main title.

[MUSIC - Basil Poledouris: Conan the Barbarian]

Kousha Navidar: Nick, those timpanis. Oh, my gosh. What do you enjoy most about this track?

Nick Marcus: I saw you rocking out to it, so after this, you can tell me what you're enjoying or I'll share my scores, and you got to share at least one of yours.

Kousha Navidar: Please.

Nick Marcus: I'll say, I couldn't hear it super well, so I'll talk a little more about the score in general. Luckily, I watched the movie. I just got the 4K it, I watched it over the weekend, so I am all ready. The thing that I think I love most about this score is obviously, there's a lot of great, big thematic material, and this will sound a little weird. The recording of it isn't great, and so it adds a grittiness, a griminess, something that's raw and really visceral to the sound compared to something that is recorded in a perfect setting. I think it fits really well with the tenor of the film itself, where even watching it in 4k on a big TV, it's grainy. You're in this dirty, muddy world.

The feeling of the music perfectly aligns with the feeling of the film, whereas a perfect, gorgeous orchestral piece would be a little too pretty for the film itself.

Kousha Navidar: I would agree with that. If you're asking for my opinion, this whole idea of a barbarian and you hear brassy instruments sounding very brassy, and timpanis sounding like they are just plodding along and they won't stop. That really struck me, and I'm sure, like you said, I've never even seen the full movie. I've seen clips, but I could definitely understand how, after watching it, hearing that again evokes the feeling. Just like you were saying. There are a couple of texts that I would love to read.

First one, Tarzan with a cool guy, sunglasses, emoji. Phil popped off, referring to Phil Collins, the composer behind Tarzan, regarding The Princess Bride. The song, Storybook Love, written and performed by Willy DeVille and arranged by Mark Knopfler, received an Academy Award nomination for Best Original Song in 1988. That's a fun Easter egg there. At the same time, we have another text. Princess Bride had music? Never noticed. My favorite. We've also got another movie that you have on your docket, Nick. Let's talk about the 2002 film Solaris by Cliff Martinez, who is the name that you had mentioned earlier.

It's a Sci-Fi film starring George Clooney. He plays a psychologist who gets sent to space to understand strange behavior exhibited by scientists orbiting the planet Solaris. Let's take a listen. Here's Will She Come Back by Cliff Martinez.

[MUSIC - Cliff Martinez: Will She Come Back]

Kousha Navidar: Nick, in this one, it's a big juxtaposition compared to the one that we just heard. A lot of ambient noise. Can you talk a little bit about the role the ambient noise there plays?

Nick Marcus: Yes, and I'll say first, and this is a palette that Cliff Martinez uses in some of his other scores. It's very unusual. He often utilizes what's called a gamelan, and it's an indonesian indigenous kind of ensemble. He's particularly using, and I couldn't tell you what the actual name of the instrument is, but it's a metallophone, like a xylophone, but metal instead of wood. He uses that. He uses steel drums with some effects on them, and it reverberates and gets in your head. That's part of the film itself, is as it goes, you're increasingly unsure what's going on. You're through George Clooney's point of view, and he's lost and confused.

The ambience of it with those reverberations echoing in your head, causing you to be immersed but also to be lost at the same time. I will tell you, I first listened to this probably when I was an undergrad and must have heard this score, I don't know, not even kidding, 100, 200 times.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. Let's go to some calls. We've got Joe on the Upper West Side. Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. I wanted to give a shout out to Blade Runner, 1982, evangelist. I think for me, it just captures the aesthetic of the film wonderfully. I think it's very angelic. It's melancholic. It's quite unique. It evokes a sense of wonder, which I think, for me, in a science fiction film is pretty difficult because it can be a little bit bleak oftentimes. That would be mine. That's my all-time favorite, I think.

Kousha Navidar: Joe, thanks so much for that call. Really appreciate it. Blade Runner, iconic movie. Let's go to Jasandra in Middletown, New York. Hi, Jasandra. Welcome to the show.

Jasandra: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful to have you here. Which movie sticks out for you? Which film score?

Jasandra: It has to be the Harry Potter movies. Just everything about those movies and the scores just makes it even more magical. The music that they play when they go into the great hall, the music that plays when Harry's leaving Hogwarts, and he's getting on the train and he's talking to Hagrid, and just talking about it still gives me chills and goosebumps. I think it just makes the movies so much more just magical and just great.

Kousha Navidar: Jasandra, thanks so much. The Harry Potter score. John Williams scored the first three films, including the famous Hedwig's theme that appears in all eight films. Patrick Doyle scored the fourth film. Nicholas Hooper scored the fifth and sixth films, including Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix in 2007. Before we go to break, one more call, let's go to Serena in Orlando, Florida. Hey, Serena, welcome to the show.

Serena: Hello. Thank you. The score from To Kill a Mockingbird, I like it because I love it because it evokes a time that's in the past, it evokes a memory that the narrator has about a very special time in her childhood. I liked the music. It is beautiful music. It's got the harmony, the melody, the rhythm and all. It strikes me, and I've seen the movie many times.

Kousha Navidar: Serena, thank you so much. I'm going to pick up on something that you said there that Nick had mentioned. It evokes a feeling. You were talking about feelings of childhood and memories associated with it. It's wonderful to hear all the different types of film scores, Nick, coming through in that kind of logic that you were talking about, about evoking the feeling. We're talking to Nick Marcus, host of the Film Scorer Podcast. Listeners, we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we want more of your calls. If you have a film score that really speaks to you for good or for bad, give us a call. 212-433-9692. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, more of your calls.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, and we are talking to Nick Marcus, host of the Film Scorer Podcast. We're talking about your favorite film score for good or maybe even for bad, when they took you out of a movie or when they really put you into it. Give us a call. If you have a film score you want to shout out, you can also text us. The number is 212-433-9692. The texts are really coming in. I want to read a few. "I loved the soundtrack for Requiem for a Dream." We've got another one that says, "My favorite score ever was the Game of Thrones' music." That definitely brings up memories for me of watching Game of Thrones. "Last of the Mohicans, the 1999 film. Ravenous, the film score composed by Damon Albarn.

Before the break, we had Joe calling in, talking about Blade Runner. I'd love to talk about Sci-Fi films a little bit because this movie was on your list, Nick. You enjoy the sounds of the 1982 film Blade Runner. It's composed by the Greek composer Vangelis. He also composed the iconic theme for Chariots of Fire. Let's listen to the Blade Runner theme.

[MUSIC - Vangelis: Blade Runner]

Kousha Navidar: You can hear that grandness in his score. That's the word that really comes to mind for me, grandness. It helps set the scale and understand the size of the film's universe. What are some ways that you feel like Vangelis brings that grandness to the score?

Nick Marcus: I think one of the big aspects of it is when you watch Blade Runner, you see a lot of-- there's a lot of exposition shots panning over what looks like, at least they're miniatures, but it's these great futuristic cityscapes, these future giant pyramids. I think part of what is he's using to channel that is, Vangelis is known for being on the cutting edge of electronic and synth work, especially in the 1980s. That's what made Chariots of Fire in some ways, so special as well is an approach that people hadn't really heard as much. It's the ability to find the right sound.

Something that you take a violin, and you classical musicians, don't get mad at me for this, but a lot of times you take a violin, it's an acoustic instrument. A violin sounds like a violin. You can change it and all that. When you're taking a synth or multiple synths, adding effects to them, the world of sound you can create becomes much greater, much larger. Vangelis is able to create this truly futuristic sound that's big and huge and at the same time, also make it so it's really intimate, really small. There's plenty of sequences where you're following Harrison Ford's character, Deckard, through streets into food stalls and the scope of it shrinks down to really personal, as if you're hearing some music that was made 50 years in the future.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to Andrew in Norwalk, Connecticut. Hey, Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew: Hi, guys. One of the things I mentioned before was that picking your favorite film score, it's like picking your favorite child, which is a zero-sum game. You can't do it. A couple of things that come to mind are James Horner with Apollo 13 and Field of Dreams. A little anecdote about Apollo 13, I was substitute teaching in a music class. They said, "Do whatever you want." I said, "Okay, let me show you the launch scene, and without music, without anything." The kids looked at it and said, "Oh, yes, okay." Then I played it again with the music and they were entranced. You could tell that this grabbed them completely. Music really does make it, as you've been saying. It connects with the connective tissue.

Kousha Navidar: Andrew, thank you so much for that call. That's such an interesting thought experiment to do with some students. Speaking of folks who maybe went to school for music, we've got another call from Les in Bayside. Hey, Les, welcome to the show.

Les: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. It's funny that your last caller spoke about teaching. I taught for 25 years in the South Bronx. I toyed with film scores when I was in the conservatory. Great stuff. Really hard. One of the things I used to do with kids, a little different than what your other caller did, I played parts of a film score and have them write a paragraph explaining what's going on, what kind of movie, or whatever it is, make a scene. Some of the good stuff that I use was Spartacus, Alex North, anything by John Barry with the James Bond movies, Morricone, any of the Spaghetti Westerns, and Hitchcock, Bernard Herrmann, all of them.

Kids will write, they'll draw. They're very colorful. Another film score I wanted to bring out was, when I was really young, I saw the Planet of the Apes when it came out, and that's Jerry Goldsmith. Very frightening. If you see that movie in a dark theater properly, he's got the right [unintelligible 00:23:55].

Kousha Navidar: It'll do it to you. Les, thank you so much for those great shout-outs and for teaching so long to such an important topic. I'm happy that you mentioned Bernard Herrmann, because we have a text here that says, "Have I seriously not heard Bernard Herrmann's name? While his horror work with Hitchcock was stellar, his score for Taxi Driver was transcendently good. I'm looking at the clock. Nick, I want to ask you about Viggo Mortensen real quick, because in your podcast, you spoke with him, who many of you may know from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. He also composed the songs behind his first directorial debut called The Dead Don't Hurt.

Got about a minute left. Really want to touch on this. What did you learn about someone like Viggo who wears two hats, both actor and film scorer?

Nick Marcus: Really, someone like Viggo for The Dead Don't Hurt, he's wearing so many hats: actor, director, writer, film scorer. That gives him the ultimate say or the ultimate knowledge of what music is going in here. I'll say someone like Viggo shocked me in that everyone knows who he is. Super acclaimed, award-winning and all that, yet an incredibly, incredibly humble, friendly guy. Several times during our conversation was like, "Nick, I want to make sure if you want it, you can use my music throughout the interview." I think we just overlook how many different hobbies, interests, passions anyone can have.

Kousha Navidar: We'll have to leave it there. Callers, we see you. We have texts coming in, so many. We'll have to revisit this topic. Nick, we really appreciate you coming here. Nick Marcus is host of the Film Scorer Podcast. Thanks for hanging out with us.

Nick Marcus: Thank you for having me. The half-hour flew by. I appreciate it.

Kousha Navidar: We'll have to do it again soon. In the meantime, speaking of flying, let's listen to one more great film score. Here's Back to the Future, the theme song with Alan Silvestri.

[MUSIC - Alan Silvestri: Back to the Future]

Kousha Navidar: All right, that's our show today. Coming up on tomorrow's show, cartoonist Dash Shaw discusses his new graphic novel titled Blurry. It's about a group of characters whose lives interconnect in subtle, often unseen ways. What a joy it's been to talk to you today. We hope you've enjoyed the music. Thank you so much for your calls. Have a great day. We'll see you here tomorrow.

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