[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All of It on WNYC, I'm Alison Stewart. Today marks four years since the passing of a legendary underground artist, MF Doom, who earned the reputation as your favorite rapper's favorite rapper. This year also marks the 20th anniversary of Madvilliany, Doom's collab with producer Madlib, and it's considered to be one of the great underground albums in hip-hop history. Doom was a mysterious MC. He wore a mask in public, inspired by Dr. Doom, the comic book character, but there's a reason MF Doom wore the mask. He purposely kept his private life separated from his rap career. He even sometimes sent fake Dooms out to perform at his concerts. As a result, not much was known about who the real Doom was. A new book attempts to shine light on his life, from a childhood on Long Island to a blossoming rap career cut short by tragedy to reaching rock bottom, only to reemerge as one of the most influential rappers today. The book is called The Chronicles of Doom: Unraveling Raps Mass Iconoclast. It's out now. The book's author, S.H. Fernando Jr., who goes by Skiz, is with me in the studio. Skiz has a book event today at the Brooklyn Museum. The event starts at 7:00. Thanks for being with us.

Skiz: Thanks for having me, Alison. Great to be back in NYC.

Alison Stewart: As you write in the book, Doom was private to the point where the general public didn't even know that he had passed away for months. Knowing that and writing your book, how did you try to balance his clear preference for privacy but also serve the story of telling who he is?

Skiz: That's a great question. You have to have a certain sensitivity, especially when you're writing a book about someone who's passed away and still has a family around. The approach I took was really to just focus on his music, and obviously, Doom was not around for me to interview, but I accessed a lot of his existing interviews online and on YouTube. I talked to about 50 people who were either friends, family, collaborators, or people he knew in different phases of his life. Being a private person myself, I have that sensitivity, too. I was very firm not to speak about certain things. Especially, it didn't mention his children at all, really. Just stuck to his life and his music.

Alison Stewart: In the book, Doom is quoted as saying, he said, "I consider myself a writer."

Skiz: Yes.

Alison Stewart: After studying his lyrics, what was unique about his lyricism?

Skiz: Oh, my God. You could write a doctoral dissertation on that.

Alison Stewart: Yes, you could. [laughs]

Skiz: Honestly, I think in a few years, there's going to be college courses on Doom because he was such a literary rapper. First of all, he was very well-read. He really took pains to-- in his writing and also just in his delivery- his very technical style. He was the master of alliteration, where you have several words in the same line rhyming. He was just a master wordsmith and you could tell he had such a love of language.

Alison Stewart: He was an independent artist releasing albums on different labels at a time when that wasn't a common pathway to success. Why was independence important to him?

Skiz: Well, if you go further back in his story when he was only a teenager still in high school, he and his brother got a record deal for a group called KMD. That was their first group and they came into the industry under the wing of Third Base, which was an established act on Def Jam. Then KMD got signed to Elektra. Sorry, what was the question again? I got blank.

Alison Stewart: My question was why was independence important to him?

Skiz: Yes. Basically, he had such a horrible experience with the mainstream music industry. He was summarily dropped before his second album came out due to controversial artwork. They gave him like a little severance and then basically, sent him out the door, so in the in between time when he was plotting and scheming, he was like, "I'm not going to do that again." That also explains his aversion to fame and the whole idea of wearing the mask. He wanted to have a personal life. He didn't want to be a celebrity.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Skiz. We're speaking about his book called The Chronicles of Doom: Unraveling Rap's Masked Iconoclast. We want to get you in on the conversation. Are you a fan of MF Doom? How did you discover his music? Call or text us now at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. What about his music spoke to you? Do you have a favorite album or song? Where do you see his influence in hip-hop today? 212-433-WNYC 212-4339. Let's go back to his childhood. He was born in the UK, but he actually grew up on Long Island, a creative kid in a working-class family. How would you describe the environment he grew up in?

Skiz: Well, I've never personally been to Long Beach, but I hear it's very nice. They have a nice boardwalk overlooking the Atlantic. The way I described it in the book, it's like a intermediate between the city and suburbia because kids there would ride bikes and skateboard, so it's not like the hard, gritty city-type lifestyle. It was a little more suburban, yards, and he grew up in a pretty stable middle-class home. His mom was a nurse, his dad was a teacher from Zimbabwe, South Africa. He was also an activist and everything. I think you can see that they passed on their intelligence to Doom and their creativity. His father was also an accomplished artist himself, a sculptor.

Alison Stewart: Was there any clues in his childhood about him becoming an artist?

Skiz: Oh, yes. I mean, early on, when he was a teenager just getting into hip-hop, his first alias was Art. That was his first graffiti name. He used to write was Art. It's funny because his mom and dad met at an art fair. It's like this guy was destined to be in the arts in some capacity.

Alison Stewart: Yes. You mentioned KMD. That was his first rap group and he called him at the time Zev Lovaks, right?

Skiz: Yes.

Alison Stewart: His late younger brother Raheem was Subroc. What was the reputation of this group?

Skiz: Okay, when KMD first came out in the early '90s, it was a whole different time of hip-hop. It was, I call it a kinder, gentler era of hip-hop. You had a whole movement called the Native Tongues coming out, which was very Afrocentric, bohemian hip-hop coming out of New York, spearheaded by the Jungle Brothers, De La Soul, Tribe Called Quest. KMD was not part of the Native Tongues collective, but they were grouped in with them because they had that same kind of playful, quirky style of hip-hop. They had so much potential. Their first album did well, spawned the hit Peach Fuzz. Then they regrouped to do a second album, and unfortunately, it never came out when it was supposed to, and they were dropped. That's where we pick up the story of MF Doom.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Let's talk to Tevis from New York. Hey, Tevis, thanks for calling, All of It.

Tevis: Hey, how's it going?

Alison Stewart: Going great.

Tevis: I love this conversation. I'm a huge MF Doom fan. I DJ'd in New York for many years. My brother DJed quietly in Seattle in his apartment, but MF Doom was the one artist that really brought us together. We would send each other records. Every birthday is all themed MF Doom stuff, so we are huge fans. Thank you for having this conversation about this brilliant artist.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to John, who is walking on Nostrand Avenue in Brooklyn. Hey, John.

John: Good afternoon, Alison. How's it going?

Alison Stewart: Good, man.

John: I'm an MF Doom devotee. I would call myself an obsessive, and I think most people who know me at all would also call me an obsessive. I have custom artworks made in his likeness. I've hunted down original album art, and what a lot of people might not know, he was also an incredibly talented visual artist. He designed a lot of his own iconography and cover art. I hunted down these hidden treasures and this whole mythology that sprung up around him, I think he sort of knew. He even had a line on one of his tracks on Mad Villain. He said his life is like a folklore legend, and it's true. The reason that you and I are having this conversation with everyone now is because he created this enormous metaverse, this mystique around him and his thing. He was such a brilliant man and such a brilliant artist in a million different ways. I could speak about him endlessly. I have such a vast respect for what he did.

Skiz was mentioning this, but in the span of a couple weeks, he lost his brother, he lost his record deal, and he lost his album. Now, he and his brother were only a couple years apart, but he referred to his younger brother as a twin. A lot of the stuff written about them at the time referred to them as almost a single spirit, so you can imagine the pain that would happen from losing half of your spirit or your other spirit. He took that, and he created what is, in my opinion, the greatest hip-hop of all time and I know I'm not alone in saying that, and I would agree with Skiz. There will be lectures taught on MF Doom and his work will join the canon of the greats.

I would put some of this stuff up there with Mozart and any of the greatest musical minds of all time. It's that dense. It's that brilliant, incredibly intellectual work. I love his stuff and I'm so happy that you're shining a light on this incredible, incredible artist, who, by the--

Alison Stewart: Oh, we're going to dive in right here. I did want to get to his brother. His brother passed away on April 23, 1993. You have a quote from Dante Ross in the book where he said, "I think some part of Doom was gone when Sub died." What changed for Doom after his brother's death?

Skiz: Oh, wow. I mean, everything. His whole. That his whole life was turned upside down. Like the caller said, Doom and his brother were like twins. They were inseparable, even though they were a couple years apart. If you've ever lost a loved one, especially a close member of the family you know it's something that you never get over. I lost my nephew, who was 17.

Alison Stewart: I'm sorry.

Skiz: It's something that you just learned to live with. I think the whole creation of the character of MF Doom was Daniel Dumile learning to live with that grief and basically just continuing his life without this person who was so important to him. I don't think if Dingle Isway had died that we would even have an MF Doom today because I think they would have stayed together as a group. I think KMD probably would have been as big as A Tribe Called Quest is today.

Alison Stewart: Oh, actually, we got a couple of really interesting texts. We got a text from Jason Moran. Hi, Jason. "By the way, Doom was intensely wizard-like, as a lyricist and producer and his subversive way of making alchemy. Can we talk about young musicians in hip-hop passing of diseases in their 40s and their 50s?

Skiz: Yes, it's an unfortunate thing. I don't think any other genre of music you see so many young brothers dying way before their time. I don't know what it is about hip-hop or the rap lifestyle, but yes.

Alison Stewart: It's tough.

Skiz: We have to honor our artists when they're alive. That's a very important thing to do because life is very fragile. People obviously knew that Doom had some health issues, but it was like a gut punch when we heard of his passing because here was a guy to me who was in his prime. He had so much more to offer. As an artist, his trajectory was just going into outer space. I mean, who knows what we would have seen from Doom if he had lived today, but thankfully, we do have his catalog. He was very prolific and we still have a ton of stuff to dig into.

Alison Stewart: My guest is S.H. Fernando Jr.. Of course, Skizz is his name. He is the author of The Chronicles of Doom: Unraveling Rap's Masked Iconoclast. He has a book conversation tonight at 7:00 PM at the Brooklyn Museum. Let's take another call. This is Clark calling in from Manhattan. Hey, Clark, thanks for calling All of It.

Clark: Hey, thank you. I just wanted to call in and talk about one of my favorite artists. I'm so glad you guys are talking about him. One of the texts you said someone called him wizard. I completely agree because although people really know about Doom, once you crack open the book that is Doom, you learn about his other aliases. He had another alias called Victor Vaughn. Victor Vaughn was like this smooth-talking rapper. He had another one, King Geedorah, and that brings you down the rabbit hole. Everyone loves Madvilliany and so do I. That put me on to Madlib, who also has another alias, which is Lord Quas and it's pretty crazy how it all comes together.

As much as I love Madvilliany, I think people sleep on Mmm Food. Mmm Food was one of my favorite albums. It opened my mind that you don't need to just sample '80s and '70s records. You could sample cartoons. You could sample music and sounds around you. I miss him dearly and I still listen to his music every day.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling. Somebody texted in, "Love Doom, saw him perform, and coincidentally made my own Doom mask for Halloween back in college." Let's talk to Zach. Zach has a question for you, if you can answer it, right.

Skiz: Sure.

Alison Stewart: Hi, Zach. Thanks for calling in.

Zach: Hi. Cheers. Thanks for having this conversation. On Doomsday, he says something about like. You said that he wrote that rap on the bottom of a bunk bed in prison.

Skiz: Yes.

Zach: BCDC [inaudible 00:15:27].

Skiz: Baltimore City Department of Corrections? That's BCDC. Yeah.

Alison Stewart: Were you able to confirm this? He wants to know.

Skiz: Oh, yes, actually, that happened, and I tell the whole story in the book. That was when Doom was picked up. He was taking a bus from New York to D.C. When they stopped in Baltimore, some cops came on with some dogs for a random check, and they found some drugs on. For some reason, they took Doom into custody. They took him and one other person into custody, but Doom did beat the charges. It wasn't his drugs, but it was a pretty scary situation because that could have derailed his whole comeback. That was just right before all of this stuff with Fondalum was happening and he was about to relaunch himself as MF Doom, so that was actually a very close call for Doom.

Alison Stewart: I did want to ask you about this because the book isn't hagiography. You get into some rough stuff that he went into in his life.

Skiz: Yes, of course.

Alison Stewart: Would you share a little bit about the tough times that Doom had?

Skiz: Yes, I want to mention this out front because a lot of people ask about this is an unauthorized biography. What that means is that the estate or Doom's family had nothing to do with it. This was just me, an independent journalist on my own cognizance just researching this story and writing the book. When you do an authorized biography, usually the estate has the final say on the edit, so it's like with the Prince movie on Netflix. We might never see that because the estate controls that. With books, it's different. I'm an independent journalist doing an independent story, and I want to present a balanced 360 presentation of Doom.

One of the things I found out about him was that during those lean years when he was not in the industry, in order to survive, he had to turn to some drug dealing. A lot of rappers like to associate with drug dealing. They like to brag about it. Doom was one of those dudes who was like, "No." He doesn't even talk about that in his rhymes, and that says a lot about the guy. He was involved in that to survive. Obviously, he had substance abuse issues. He had issues with alcohol, which basically everyone I interviewed told me, so that's not a secret. In the book, we also find out about some of the health issues he faces later on in life in England.

He's got diabetes, high blood pressure and stuff like that. I was cautious about how I handled it in the book because this is not like an exploitation book. I'm coming to Doom from the perspective of a fan. You got to tell everything about the guy, the good, the bad and the ugly in order to provide a full portrait.

Alison Stewart: Oh, one of the journalism person who was my mentor just said, "You have to tell the good and the bad because why would they believe if you only tell the good?"

Skiz: Exactly.

Alison Stewart: You have to tell the whole story. My guest is Skiz. The book is The Chronicles of Doom: Unraveling Rap's Masked Iconoclast. All right, Madvilliany is collab with producer Madlib. The album is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. What about this album represents the best of who Doom was?

Skiz: Oh, wow. That's a tough question to me, this album, and it's just as much Madlib as it is Doom because it was just a meeting of minds, in my opinion. It was just the chemistry between the artists that made this such a special project because you can even play this album to someone who's not into hip-hop and they'll be into it. It's just something that you can't explain with Doom. It was just that they were able to bottle that lightning, at that time that they were doing it. I also tell the story ot was an album that almost never came out because it was first leaked on the Internet and they pretty much had to go back and redo the whole thing.

Alison Stewart: Oh, wow.

Skiz: Doom re-recorded all his vocals in a completely different style.

The way it ended up was not the way it started. It was just a very special project in the in to be in the beginning and it. For both Doom and Madlib, it just changed the trajectory of their careers.

Alison Stewart: There's one song in particular on Madvilliany that you say is Doom's theme song, One of his defining tracks This Is All Caps.

[MUSIC -- Doom - This is All Caps]

Doom: It's so nasty that it's probably somewhat of a travesty having me

Then he told the people you could call me your majesty

Keep your battery charged,

You know it won't stick yo,

and it's not his fault you kick slow.

Should have let your trick hold chick

hold your sick glow.

Plus nobody couldn't do nothing once he let the brink go

nd you know I know that's a bunch of snow

The beat is so butter,

Peep the slow cutter as he utter the calm flow

Mother

Don't talk about my mom, Joe.

Sometimes you rhyme quick sometimes you rhyme slow

or vice versa

Whip up a slice of nice verse pie

Alison Stewart: Where do you think today in hip-hop do we hear his influence?

Skiz: I think it's more in a subtle way. I mean, obviously, there are artists who are directly influenced by Doom. People like Tyler the Creator, Earl Sweatshirt, Ma Commi, the Haitian rapper who always covers his face up. I think really, to me, Doom represents freedom because as we were speaking earlier, he was always on independent labels. He controlled his own business, and that's rare in this rap game, where it's industry-driven. He was an outlier and he really made it work in a way that no one else was able to do it. That's why he's so special.

To his fans, as you can hear from all the callers, the enthusiasm in. People seem to have like a personal relationship with Doom. It's almost like they have a one on one relationship with him through his lyrics and the way his whole conversational style and everything like that. To me, he was the whole package. he had the. He was a producer. He was a rapper par excellence. He was a conceptualist. He had a vivid imagination. He was laugh out loud funny, self deprecating humor. You just don't find that in MCs. most of rap is kind of like this macho monolith, and they're talking about materialism or drugs or whatever. Doom just totally flipped the script on all of that, and I think that's why he's as important to people as he is.

Alison Stewart: The Chronicles of Unraveling Rapp's Masked Iconoclast. It's by S.H. Fernando Jr. In case you want to pick it up. He has a public event tonight at the Brooklyn Museum at 7:00. Thanks for your time today.

Skiz: Thank you so much, Alison.

[00:23:16] [END OF AUDIO]