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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. Forgive me, listeners, but we got to start this next conversation with some music from Kesha.

[MUSIC - Kesha: Tik Tok]

Kousha Navidar: The social media app, TikTok, is in fact on the clock, thanks to a bipartisan push in Congress and President Biden's support for a law that's banning the video-sharing platform. Under this new law, the TikTok party might actually stop as early as next January. If the platform isn't under New American ownership by then, it could be banned from Apple and Google's app stores. It would become illegal to host TikTok's content in the US, which according to some tech watchers, would effectively drive the app into the ground. US lawmakers say they're concerned about privacy and the potential for election interference.

Those are two issues that have been concerns across the social media landscape, including with American tech companies, but TikTok has a relationship with China, or as lawmakers say, when they want to revive Cold War anxieties, the Chinese Communist Party. It's that affiliation with China that's brought momentum to this push against TikTok, where efforts to address the same issues that American companies haven't been brought with the same fervor. Let's not forget, it's an election year. The politics of appearing "tough on China", they're front and center, but in the background, thousands of TikTok users have been left worried about the future.

The digital creator economy, it's a $250 billion industry, and it's expected to double over the next three years according to a report by Goldman Sachs. A significant number of creators rely on TikTok as their main source of income, and for others, it's been a key part of marketing their products and small businesses. For everyone on the platform, the new law and potential bans, they spell uncertainty. Joining me now to unpack all of that is Sapna Maheshwari, who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times. Hi, Sapna.

Sapna Maheshwari: Hi.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, how would you be impacted if TikTok goes away? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Maybe you're a full-time content creator, or maybe TikTok is just one of the platforms you use as a marketing tool. We're here to hear your stories. We're at 212-433-9692. We can also take questions about the business side or the politics of TikTok for New York Times reporter, Sapna Maheshwari, or your experience engaging with current events on the platform, and how your news diet might change if TikTok is banned. Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692, or very appropriately for this segment, you can reach us on social. We're @allofitwnyc.

Sapna, let's get everyone on the same page. What Congress passed, is ban the right word for it? Is Congress aiming to ban TikTok or force a sale? That is language used by a number of outlets reporting on the story, including yours.

Sapna Maheshwari: Yes. What Congress actually passed is a demand for the company to sell to non-Chinese ownership. There's actually a group of four countries that they say cannot own TikTok. It's includes China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea. They've basically given TikTok this deadline to January. It's basically a nine-month deadline. There's a chance that the president could extend it to a year if there's a deal underway, but what they're holding over TikTok's head is, if a deal is not reached, this app will be banned in the US.

Kousha Navidar: Let's say that the earliest that the ban on TikTok will go into effect is January 2025. That ban, what does that mean? Does that mean that the app would disappear from people's phones or that accounts would be disabled? [laughter] What would that look like?

Sapna Maheshwari: It would basically stop functioning properly. The app would stop updating. People wouldn't be able to download it again. Even if they used VPNs to access the app. What really fuels this app is how many people have it on their phones, how easy it is to log into, the fact that it's a daily visit for so many users. That would all go away and it would just degrade over time, and we saw this happen actually in India in 2020. I actually went there for a family wedding last year and opened TikTok, and it was just frozen on the last video I had seen.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow. It didn't open. You could open it on your phone, but it had no functionality. Hey, listeners, how would you be impacted if TikTok goes away? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Maybe you're a full-time content creator, maybe you just love going on TikTok or you use it to market your small business, we're here, 212-433-9692. Sapna, we have our first caller. Here's Margaret from Long Island. Hi, Margaret. Welcome to the show.

Margaret: Oh, thank you.

Kousha Navidar: How would TikTok's ban affect you, Margaret?

Margaret: It would affect me because every morning I watch my grandchildren from Monday through Friday. Every morning, Monday through Friday for the last two years, we do a TikTok. My grandson sets up a tripod. We either play indoor soccer or sports, or dance, or laugh, or climb the stairs and see who could jump up the stairs quicker. I would miss that. We never publish them, it's just for my own benefit. They put it on my-- and I don't broadcast it under my own ID, but I can tell you that I am treasuring all of these mornings that we do together every single day. In that way, I would really miss it terribly.

Kousha Navidar: That's lovely, Margaret.

Margaret: Other than that, I don't really watch or view others online. I just watch ours, and it's a great memory. I would cherish them and show them in 10 years, and they probably wouldn't believe I saved them, if I could. That's how I would use it.

Kousha Navidar: Margaret, thank you so much for that call. We really appreciate it. If you're listening right now and you have an opinion about how the potential ban of TikTok would affect you and your life, whether you're a content creator or you make videos with your grandchildren every morning, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Sapna, given the timeline, no matter what, TikTok is going to be around this election season. If foreign interference in US politics is the big concern for lawmakers, was there anything preventing them from setting the timeline to before this incredibly consequential election?

Sapna Maheshwari: Basically, TikTok and the US government have been in negotiations for several years around a security plan that would address the concerns that the government has expressed right around the data, around the propaganda issue, but the government has known that this is a really steep challenge. That this could potentially infringe on Americans' First Amendment rights, that it will be tough to take this app away or to really force ByteDance to sell it to a non-Chinese owner.

I think the reason we're seeing this now and not earlier before the election is that the people who worked on this bill, including the Justice Department, members of the Biden administration as well as all these lawmakers, they knew that they had to craft something that would hold up in a big court battle, which we've already seen TikTok sue to say that this law is unconstitutional. The effort to, I guess, work on this bill and to draft the law came together in such a way that I don't think it would've been possible for them to pass something before the election that would hold up in court.

Kousha Navidar: Do you see the possibility that this bipartisan move would actually get dropped once the election is over, and the political potency, I guess, of appearing tough on China dissipates until midterms?

Sapna Maheshwari: I think it's definitely a possibility. I think anything could happen. It's definitely in TikTok's interest to delay as much as the company can in the event that another administration potentially or just another cycle puts the attention away from them, but there is a lot of broad support for this action. This will still be fought in courts until then. It's definitely hard to say if it changes.

Kousha Navidar: Before you had mentioned VPNs, are there any whispers on the platform about how to circumvent a potential ban? I guess, to begin with, quickly explaining what a VPN is for listeners, but then also if there are workarounds that would exist.

Sapna Maheshwari: People have suggested in the past that you could use a virtual private network, basically different forms of technology to work around a ban of the app, and this actually all came up last year because the state of Montana tried to implement a statewide ban of TikTok for a lot of the similar reasons that lawmakers have brought up at the federal level. Ultimately, a judge decided in that case that Montana didn't really have the right to try and ban TikTok. When that discussion was underway, they were similarly going to target the app stores and set up a fining structure to get rid of the app. A lot of people said that they would try and find workarounds to essentially access TikTok, despite the law.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Sapna Maheshwari, who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times. We're talking about the TikTok ban that is laid down by the US government now. It is aiming for January 2025. Either TikTok will be sold to an American entity, or it is going to be banned in the United States. We're taking your calls if a TikTok ban would affect your life, especially if you're a content creator. I'd love to hear from some content creators out there, how this might affect them right now. How would you be impacted? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We've got Michael in Brooklyn on the line. Hi, Michael. Welcome to the show.

Michael: Hi there. Thanks so much for taking the call.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. How would a TikTok ban affect you?

Michael: I wanted to keep this quick. I'm a mid-twenties guy, and I remember growing up with Vine and seeing these things and being like, "Okay, six seconds of video, I can get into that." Then TikTok came along and these videos just get longer and longer and longer. I think me and my friends have been talking about this a lot. We're just craving a formalized break. It's nice to have all of these colors and all this material and all this connection, but it can feel very overwhelming and ultimately leave you confused and isolated at the same time. I think a ban would honestly give the country, at the very least, a moment to take a quick breath.

I know it would just be like a week or something, and the next app would be on the way, but a quick breath and say, "What are we doing here? Why don't we listen to each other? Let's listen to the radio a little bit more." That's my thought.

Kousha Navidar: [chuckles] I got to thank you for that plug for the radio. I appreciate that, Michael. Sapna, I hear him talking about that forced step away. In some ways, though, what TikTok is doing exists on other platforms as well that are owned by American companies, right?

Sapna Maheshwari: Yes. I think that once TikTok started really blowing up in the US in 2020, you saw Facebook and Google really try and get in on the action. YouTube Shorts has gotten a lot bigger, Instagram Reels for my fellow millennials. That is probably the way that they consumed TikToks. I think you see, even the New York Times, on our homepage, we started doing vertical video to help sum up some of our stories and encourage readers to check out the text. I think TikTok popularized a medium that people do find appealing. It's interesting. What I hear in that caller's comments I think reflect another issue that TikTok is facing here which is finding allies to support the app.

This is coming at a time where there is a lot of concern right now, I think society around apps and what they're doing to our minds and how young people are affected. For example, the book, I think The Anxious Generation has been really popular with parents. I feel like I talked to a lot of parents who have a lot of concerns around screen time and how to navigate this world. I think that that has made it tough in some ways for TikTok to argue its case because I think it's happening at a time where maybe parents and society, teachers are a little worried around not just TikTok, but Instagram and YouTube and what they're doing.

Kousha Navidar: We have to take a quick break. We're here with Sapna Maheshwari, who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times. Listeners, if you have an opinion about the TikTok ban, give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. We'll take a quick break and we'll be right back after this.

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Kousha Navidar: This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. We're talking about TikTok's ban that has been put into effect by the US government saying either sell TikTok ByteDance to a American-owned entity by January 2025 or shut TikTok down in the US. We're talking to Sapna Maheshwari, who is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for the New York Times. Listeners, we're also taking your calls. If you have an opinion about the effect that TikTok's ban would have on your life, especially if you're a content creator, want to plug that one more time, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. Or you can text us. We're at 212-433-9692. You can also send us a message on social. We're @allofitwnyc.

Sapna, America lawmakers have been painting the situation like the app is being controlled by the Chinese government, and their concerns are about election interference and data privacy. I'd love to understand exactly how the technology could facilitate those perceived threats. Can you paint a more specific picture of what kinds of manipulation are even possible if a government were to use TikTok for nefarious purposes?

Sapna Maheshwari: Yes. To be clear, the government has not handed over very specific proof that this has happened. What sets TikTok apart from Instagram and other social platforms is its For You feed. For those who haven't used the app before, its main draw is when you open it up, it really pays attention to what you like, what your interests are, what videos you watch, when you stop them, when you skip them, and then it starts feeding you a tailored stream of videos that might catch your interest. People really like it because it is delivering content to you that's not based on your friends. It's not videos posted by your high school classmates or whatever the case may be.

It's really tailored to what you are interested in and introducing new trends and things like that to you. That's part of why it's become so influential in culture. It's more of a place of discovery. While that's really great if you are looking for new makeup trends or cooking videos or new music to listen to, what the government has found is it can be a little bit scarier for them when it comes to news or information around current events where they feel that there is this risk that the Chinese government could lean on ByteDance to say, "Hey, this is how we feel about Taiwan or protests in Hong Kong or other things that are important to our government. Can you perhaps suppress information about these things or serve a certain point of view on the algorithm?" This is a concern that has come up again and again with lawmakers.

Kousha Navidar: We're just getting some texts that I want to read here. One of them is, "Will you please stop saying the TikTok ban has been put into effect? There is nothing in effect yet." Just to be clear with listeners, no ban in effect yet. The United States government has said January 2025 is a deadline to sell to an American entity or to have that ban put into effect. We also have another text that says, "I have mixed feelings about the TikTok ban. It seems blatantly hypocritical for our government to force a sale of this company and not every other social media company that is equally damaging to our society.

I think they're targeting TikTok because there is the most pro-Palestinian content on there, compared to other platforms. I do worry about how TikTok harms kids and teens. I don't know how serious of a national security threat it really is, or if that's just a scapegoat. Glad you have these discussions that make us all informed." Thank you all so much for sending in those texts and being a part of the conversation. We've also got Jose, a caller from North Lee, New Jersey. Hi Jose, welcome to the show.

Jose: Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm actually in Nutley, New Jersey, sorry, in Essex County. I'm calling not as a content creator, unfortunately, although I used to create content on TikTok. I'm a musician, a violinist, and opera singer. I'm calling to talk about my daughter's usage of TikTok. My daughter is 16 and a half. One of the very interesting things that happened recently in talking to her about the possible ban, another imminent ban, was the idea of, "Oh, so how will you be?" Because as we all know, as a lot of kids and teenagers have created what one could call a relationship with this app. They have invested time. They have invested exploration time, research.

For some, it's just random doom-scrolling and for someone like my daughter, she actually invests actual time, valuable times sometimes that I wish she didn't researching certain content and finding out what's actual facts and what isn't to the point where there's a such a respect toward the app. When I asked her, "How you're going to be?" She blatantly said, "Oh, we're going to be fine. It's going to be totally okay." [chuckles] I just did not believe her at all because I just see the investment, I see the emotional investment, time investment, and again, a level of respect that I almost wished she didn't have towards a platform like that. At the same time, in a case like hers, it's because she actually put the time to make sure that she finds content that is actually truth, that is usable, that is useful. In that sense, I respect her choices, but on the other hand, it's like, "I don't know, she could do without that, too."

Kousha Navidar: Jose, I hear you. We're going to have to pause you there just for time, but thank you so much for bringing that idea of your daughter looking for platforms that she can be on. We got some more text that I just want to read out here. One says, "Such a naive discussion, guys. This is all about censoring content. TikTok has been leading the way with the ceasefire movement. Look who wants to buy TikTok. Otherwise, they wouldn't sell it. They'd want to shut it down." Sapna, I'd love your insight in here because there is the question of who really wants to buy TikTok, who's been talking about this as individuals or maybe larger companies looking to absorb?

I know that there was some talk before about Steve Mnuchin looking to assemble some kind of buyer. Can you tell us more about that?

Sapna Maheshwari: Yes. Steve Mnuchin has probably come up as one of the few folks that have said they'd like to lead a consortium to buy the app. We haven't seen a whole lot, though, on that, and in part because there's a lot of uncertainty around whether the technology that fuels TikTok's recommendations, if the Chinese government would actually allow that to be exported, and how ByteDance might be able to license its technology or not to a new buyer. I think there's a lot of uncertainty around what a sale could look like, but that text is interesting because I do think that this is a big piece of the concerns around this sale.

TikTok didn't actually specify this in their lawsuit challenging the law, but October 7th and the Israel-Hamas war has really galvanized lawmakers towards creating this law. It was definitely not the only driving force. I think that if you look at the history of bans on government devices, there's been a lot of concerns around TikTok, but it's been very much a part of the narrative and it showed how propaganda could potentially circulate on the platform. I think that this law passing at a time when there is a lot of generational divide over how the US is responding to what's happening overseas. If you just look at the comments on President Biden's TikTok account, you will see that there is a lot of concern that this law is related to how young people are getting information about the war.

Kousha Navidar: Just to remind listeners, Steve Mnuchin is the former treasury secretary under Trump who is talking about putting together a bid or there was reporting putting together a bid to buy TikTok from ByteDance. We have Aaron in East Meadow, New York. Hi, Aaron. Welcome to the show.

Aaron: Hi. Thank you. I just wanted to make a point that the alleged reason for banning TikTok on security grounds is disingenuous at best because a lot of or all social media companies based in the United States have been granted virtually carte blanche to use and to sell data to third parties since Trump, and not to mention the Patriot Act, which had basically given our government carte blanche to spy on its own citizens and look into what kind of insights they can get from us without due process. Why should we be worried about a foreign government's access to what kind of videos we like when our own government can do the same thing, and they have more of a reason to use that data?

Kousha Navidar: Aaron, thank you so much for that. We talked about that before, what the, maybe, either double standards or differentiated treatment of these tech companies are by the government. Sapna, I'm looking at the clock. We're running out of time here, but recently on The Daily, you said that TikTok included a Call Your Congressperson feature and that it actually backfired in that it demonstrated how much influence the app could actually have on politics. Can you share what part of the story suggests about the government's thinking about this app?

Sapna Maheshwari: Yes. That was a one-time campaign that TikTok launched as the bill was getting underway, encouraging users to call lawmakers whose offices were flooded with calls, including from a fair number of minors. For a lot of the lawmakers receiving those calls, while they do want to hear from constituents, they felt that it was showing that TikTok can have this political influence in a way that they felt could be used incorrectly in the wrong hands.

It's totally fair these points that callers are making around concerns with civil liberties, but I think what lawmakers would say is that this is about the Chinese government specifically and the ownership of TikTok by ByteDance and laws in that country that sanction the Chinese government to lean on private companies for data and other things in a way that US companies maybe don't operate here.

Kousha Navidar: We'll have to leave it there. Sapna Maheshwari is a reporter covering TikTok and other tech news for The New York Times. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

Sapna Maheshwari: Thanks for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. That's today's show. Tomorrow, the new film We Grow Now follows 2 imaginative 10-year-old boys living in the Cabrini-Green housing complex. We'll talk to director Minhal Baig, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. Have a great day.

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