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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, in for Alison Stewart. Legendary artist and civil rights activist, Harry Belafonte passed away last year at the age of 96. For over half of his life, he was on the forefront of activism from marching with the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King in the 1960s to writing an opinion piece denouncing Donald Trump in 2016. Following Harry, it's a new documentary that's screening at Tribeca, follows Belafonte for several years before his death, exploring how events like the murder of Trayvon Martin and the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson mobilized a new generation of activists and how Mr. B as they called him, helped mentor and support them through his organization which is called The Gathering for Justice.

Many are familiar names and faces from A-listers like Jamie Fox and Alicia Keys to Aloe Black and poet Aja Monet and there are others. People like Chicago rapper Rod Stars, who took up the fight in Ferguson, or Matt Post, who was horrified by the school shootings at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas and became an advocate for gun control. All of these folks are featured in the film leaning into Belafonte's knowledge, experience, and knack for strategy. We're lucky to have a couple of them here today. Aja Monet is here. Hi, Aja.

Aja Monet: Hello. How are you?

Kousha Navidar: Good. Thanks so much for joining us. Matt Post is here as well. Hi, Matt.

Matt Post: Thank you so much for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. We also have the director of the film, Suzanne Rostock. Hi, Suzanne.

Suzanne Rostock: Hi. Thank you for having all of us.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Suzanne, I'd love to start with you. You directed a documentary about Mr. Belafonte in 2011. It was Sing Your Song which was pretty definitive. What part of his story did you feel like still needed to be told in 2024?

Suzanne Rostock: At the end of Sing Your Song, Harry says, "What do you do now?" He's decided there's so much left undone rather than retired because he was not a young man in 2011 and he wanted to continue to engage. I was thinking a lot about that question. What do you do now? I know whenever we showed the film around the world, people would always ask me, "What do you do now?" They wanted answers and they wanted an assignment. I would always say, "Well, look in the mirror and think about what you are capable of doing, what's needed just in your community, just on your block." [crosstalk] I was not the person to answer that question really. Then Harry invited me to share an office with him and that gave me incredible access to his everyday life.

Kousha Navidar: I was wondering what the discussions were like leading up to the start of the filming. What was something important to him that you got right?

Suzanne Rostock: What was important to him was that people, especially young people needed to engage. They needed to not just ponder, they needed to act and he was a very strong proponent of non-violence. He wanted to really craft a blueprint for the future. He wanted to help craft a blueprint for the future in a nonviolent way. With the death of Trayvon Martin, that really sparked him to get out there actually and see what was going on.

Kousha Navidar: Aja, in the film, he speaks a lot about the importance of artists being involved in the movement. How did that resonate with you?

Aja Monet: I think Mr. B has been a testament and a great example of the ways that one uses their platform and their visibility and access to not just be a spokesperson for movements but to shift the focus and the camera and highlight the people that are already doing incredible powerful work. I think Mr. B was integral in really trying to understand and listen to activists and organizers on the ground from very many years ago in terms of his relationship with someone like Martin Luther King and others. Then he remained committed to that perspective and approach towards social justice and change.

He was always trying to see where in the country people were standing up and organizing together and where young people needed help and needed advocacy. I think as someone that really believes in the power of art, not just for the sake of adorning our movements or accessories within our movements but as being integral to the strategy of our movements, I think we learned a lot from sitting with him in meetings and hearing him speak and really just studying the role that he played over the many years.

Kousha Navidar: Do you remember that first time that you sat down with him? Do you remember what it was like when you first met him?

Aja Monet: Yes. I remember first meeting him but I think the first time we actually sat down to think through and strategize a response to the violence that we were experiencing in our communities was probably the more intimate and profound time, I think, because Harry is such a charismatic, incredibly just joyous person to be around that when he's surrounded by others who admire him and really respect his work, you feel so much gratitude for the groundwork that he laid down.

When you have an intimate personal relationship and just hear the way his brain works and the ways that he was thinking through solutions, I think it was profound to realize that he was never giving up on us. He always believed in the bettering of our society, of our community, and of our people. I think the most profound takeaway of spending time with him was just his devotion to us and his steadfast commitment and belief and optimism towards change and that something would come of all of the work that we were doing. I think that when we're in time of despair, having that elder perspective and guidance was crucial.

Kousha Navidar: Suzanne, I'm listening to what Aja is saying and it makes me think of the fact that I read that you wrapped filming just a few months before he passed away. In the film you do see that he's getting more frail, getting thinner. He really still seemed to have a lot of spark and twinkle in his eye. Can you share maybe what his mindset was in those last few months?

Suzanne Rostock: I'll give you a perfect example. One of the last times I was with Harry, he was very frail. I was sitting with him in his living room and he took my hand and he said, "I'm so tired, I have to sleep a little bit. Do you mind just sitting with me while I take a nap?" It makes me cry to even tell this story. That was such a poignant moment. As he was sleeping and dreaming, suddenly in his dreams, he's saying, "Supreme Court, Supreme Court." He never stopped. [chuckles] He just never stopped to the very end. He knew everything that was going on. He wanted to hear about it, he wanted to speak with us, and he was so deeply concerned.

Kousha Navidar: That definitely does-- Sorry, go ahead. That sense of passion comes through fully in the documentary. I'm wondering, Suzanne, for you, what it's like working with someone who is facing their own mortality in that way.

Suzanne Rostock: It's very poignant, it's a privilege to witness that but I'm not a young person myself. I'm considerably younger than Harry but I'm 75. I'm facing my last chapter as well. [chuckles] It's difficult and it's also encouraging. It's encouraging to know that you can live a full life to the very end and can still contribute. There's something so beautiful about watching a person age. Harry accepted his aging. He embraced it and he never lost his spirit. His spirit remained. His body was frail and leaving him but his spirit and his mind was always there. It was a powerful experience.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking about the documentary Following Harry. It's screening at Tribeca. We're here with guests, the director, Suzanne Rostock, the poet, Aja Monet, and activist, Matt Post. Matt, I'd love to bring you into this conversation. You were pulled into activism in 2018 after the school shooting at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. How did you get involved with the gathering?

Matt Post: I first met Harry Belafonte in the summer of 2018. What I think is a really familiar story to a lot of activists. The leaders of the March for Our Lives Movement- this reenergized gun violence prevention movement were traveling around the country, registering young people to vote. We were passing up the East Coast through New York. We went to Mr. B's office to get his wisdom, his guidance for our movement at what was a precarious time for us when our momentum was in doubt, when we were doubting ourselves. As you'll see in this documentary, Mr. B, behind the scenes lent strategy and counsel to so many of the modern movements for social justice who came to him for his wisdom drawing on everything he learned being at the forefront of the struggle for civil rights.

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk a little bit about the gathering and how you experienced it, what it was, how it helped you out?

Matt Post: I wasn't at the actual Gathering for Justice, but in addition to that formal infrastructure that he worked with amazing leaders like Carmen Perez to build, he was also playing an informal role to so many movements like the Gun Safety movement across the country.

Kousha Navidar: What did he do that really inspired you? Or what's something that he taught you that you feel like you still carry on after meeting and working with him in the capacity that you did?

Matt Post: I think Harry Belafonte's story especially as captured by this film is really, as Aja was saying, an antidote to the cynicism and despair that a lot of people of my generation feel right now facing so many problems that feel unsolvable. His life speaks to the fact that change is hard and messy and brutal but always possible. That was the advice that he gave us first saying that he believed in us which was more than a lot of adults were doing when we were traveling around the country at that time to find joy in the fight and the hope to find community in that struggle.

There's a great anecdote in Susanne's previous documentary where Mr. B is at a segregated pool in the South, and the white people at the pool are clearly furious at him for just being there. He proceeds to walk out onto the diving board with a huge grin on his face and dive into the water. I think you can only grin like that when you know that by putting in the work, bringing people together, confronting injustice by yourself, that change is possible.

Kousha Navidar: Susanne, I hear you nodding over Zoom a little bit right now if I'm picking up on that correctly. Is that resonating with you right now?

Aja Monet: I think it was me.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, okay. Sorry. I was wondering who that was right now. Aja, I hear you resonating. Tell me about what that reaction was.

Aja Monet: I just really appreciate Matt's framing of Mr. B in that moment because it does make me really emotional thinking about this time when many of us feel discouraged as if change is impossible. I think what Harry or Mr. B taught us was that it's inevitable and that freedom is really tied to our joy and the ability to face some of the most insurmountable challenges and still maintain your humanity, your dignity, your pride. That grin, thinking of that grin, I just think of the humor that we have to maintain and sustain in the midst of some volatile violence that we experience just for fighting for the better of all of us.

It just reminds me and it brings back so many emotions just thinking about the power of Mr. B's charismatic approach towards our social justice movements and that he did have a great sense of humor. It makes me also think of the classic iconic image of him and Martin Luther King laughing with each other. I think sometimes when people tell the story of who we were and our social movements, it's always so serious and they make us out into caricatures of our pain and trauma. Yet, we know that the reason we fight is because we love so deeply and because we have such great joy and admiration for each other. I just really appreciate Matt bringing that up.

Kousha Navidar: It reminds me of one of my favorite parts of the documentary where you see Mr. B saying, "Get me Tony Bennett." Then he says, "What I need from you, Tony Bennett, is Lady Gaga's phone number." Then, when he finds out that Lady Gaga is, I think, at a rehearsal, he says, "Okay, get me Alicia Keys." He just went through a Rolodex in his head, and it seemed like whatever he needed, he was going to get it. Susanne, there's this sense from Mr. B that he feared that all the work from his generation was done in vain.

It felt like there was this real passion behind everything he was doing, this urgency. I'm wondering from your experience with him, how did he push through that and not get overwhelmed by those feelings?

Susanne Rostock: Sometimes, he was so overwhelmed by those feelings and retreated a little bit. He knew from his own experience if you keep on fighting and keep on believing, you can make it happen. He was determined not to give up. He was determined to leave behind the knowledge and the passion to go on and to continue.

Kousha Navidar: Aja and Matt, I imagine that can also happen to you, the idea that Susanne is talking about, about sometimes you get overwhelmed and progress is very slow. It's been hard to get gun control legislation passed. For every small step forward, it can feel like there's this bulldozer pushing you back. Matt, I'm wondering how do you stay motivated.

Matt Post: I think this is-- Something that Mr. B talked to us about in our office was this long tradition in this country of young people leading the fight for social change because of the ability to not accept what is because it's the way that has always been. I think a lot of people as they get older become numb and desensitized and cynical. Mr. B did not. He held on to this hope about the possibility of change to the end. When I think about his life story, I think, "How could I possibly now become cynical when I'm navigating the same political process that he did?"

I'll also say Mr. B was the only person who ever asked us this. He asked us what we were reading in that meeting with us. What theory of change from what literature were we drawing on? I think when you root yourself in deeper principles and when you look towards history, you realize that the universe really is on the side of justice.

Kousha Navidar: Matt and Aja, you are set to be presented with the Harry Belafonte Voices for Social Justice Award this Friday at Tribeca. Aja, I'm wondering, what does this mean to you?

Aja Monet: I think it means a great deal, obviously, to be honored in the legacy and the tradition of so many greats. I think Mr. B was a part of a movement. As much as we love and lift him up, there were many leaders and many pivotal figures that he was in community with and in conversation with. When I see this opportunity to tell his story, I see it as an opportunity to highlight the entire work that so many of us are doing right now to deal with and confront the sobering reality of this country.

While we look to hope and we have great aspirations, I think we have to really address and be honest about the places and the moments that birthed our movements and the reasons that we are doing this work. Mr. B lived through Jim Crow South. He knows what that experience is. That wasn't a very pretty time in our country. It wasn't a very hopeful time. I don't think anyone who lives through such tragic experiences is looking for an award. We're looking for change.

If anything, I hope that this moment to highlight the work that's being done brings forth more who want to get involved and inspires more to be a part of the change that we need to see right now because we need examples. That's what Mr. B provided for us, was a North star, something to aspire to. He gave us an example, but we need new examples and we need people to rise to the occasion now. I really do hope that it inspires more to get involved in the work that we need to be done now.

Kousha Navidar: How about for you? If you're saying, being the example, how do you plan to keep the movement going through your art?

Aja Monet: I'm a part of an organization called V-Day that was started by another incredible activist and organizer and feminist Eve Ensler, formerly Eve Ensler V. That organization, our work, our mission is to end violence against women and girls, which is one of the biggest affronts on all social movements and countries that we've experienced across all borders and boundaries. This work has been huge for us. I think we continue to find ways to show up, not just for those who we serve- -in our organization, but all social movements that are trying to bring about liberation and love and dignity to humanity. We're in the midst of multiple genocides taking place, so I think we are really trying to find ways to get involved in whatever way we can, even if only to say not in our name, that we do not stand for the acts that are happening, acts of violence that are happening against innocent children, women, children, men, and elders across the globe, in the Congo, in Palestine, and Sudan. I think we're all finding ways to continue to lift up truth, justice, and equality in every facet of our lives.

Kousha Navidar: Matt, how do you hope to honor his legacy in your work moving forward?

Matt Post: I hope to make the work of fighting for a more just world the work of my life and commit myself to that.

Kousha Navidar: Susanne, we're looking at the clock here, we're just about wrapping up, but maybe in the minute that we have left, we hear about this next generation. What do you think would make Mr. B proud today?

Susanne Rostock: I think just what you're hearing from Matt and Aja would make him proud. I know how important the vote was to Harry and how people died to create the possibility of voting among people of color, and he just felt so strongly that we have to recognize our own power and use it and that the vote is one strong way to do that. I think he would be proud to know that people are going out there and trying to organize now to make sure that we don't lose anything, that we don't lose our freedom.

Kousha Navidar: The documentary is Following Harry, it's screening now at Tribeca. Our guests were Director Susanne Rostock, and Poet Aja Monet, and Activist Matt Post. Thank you all three so much for coming on and talking to us.

Matt Post: Thank you.

Susanne Rostock: Thank you.

Aja Monet: Thank you.

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