Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. SNL's 50th anniversary this year has encompassed a lot of big celebrations. A documentary, a major movie, a bio on Lorne Michaels, a live three-hour special featuring every famous person alive. Well, not every famous person, but it seemed like it. For the past 25 years, photographer Mary Ellen Matthews has captured the images of hosts and musical guests on the show. On one hand, they have a useful purpose. The images appear as bumpers so that local stations have room, a bumper, to go in and out of commercial.

On the other hand, the portraits show whimsical, emotional, sometimes cultural references to moments in time. Think John Mulaney dressed as Patti Smith on the cover of Horses or Chance the Rapper flying like Superman, or a glamorous shot of Emma Stone. At the end of the day, the bumpers, like all of SNL, capture the spirit of New York.

Mary Ellen Matthews has compiled some of her favorite images for a new photography book called The Art of the SNL Portrait. SNL producer Lorne Michaels writes in the book, "The bumpers are probably the least appreciated part of the show, but anybody who knows the show knows how much they mean." Mary Ellen Matthews is with me now in-studio. It is so nice to see you.

Mary Ellen Matthews: I am so happy to be here. I am such a big fan of public radio, NPR of yours, NYC. I'm over the moon.

Alison Stewart: It's so exciting when you read this book because it's 272 pictures. They're gorgeous. But then you realize that you've taken about 3,800 pictures have appeared on the air.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Just about 4,000 of this date. Yes. A little bit around there. Maybe over. I'm not sure, but yes.

Alison Stewart: What was your criteria for the book if you had to pick out of that many images?

Mary Ellen Matthews: It was tough. It was tough. I had a really good team around me. I had Emily Oberman at Pentagram and Alison Castle, who was our writer. The three of us, plus another little team helped us kind of call it down. It was so hard in the beginning. It was just like an impossibility. The flow showed itself to us. It goes from one person doing an action to the next person doing the same action, something like that. It had just a flow.

Alison Stewart: How did you get into photography?

Mary Ellen Matthews: My dad was an amateur hobbyist. We had a darkroom at home, photography equipment around, photography books, so it was kind of in my DNA. I always just wanted to be in that world.

Alison Stewart: What did you take pictures of when you first started taking pictures before you got paid for it?

Mary Ellen Matthews: I think still lives. I was always fascinated by a mayonnaise jar and the way that a light hit it. Then it was like, "Oh, well, people. Do that with people." Gradually went into more portraiture. Then I was working on film sets and did stills, not for the production, but just behind the scenes for myself, just with all the lights hit and just how the light was playing on different people. Then I started working at a record company and as a publicist, and so I would go out almost every night and see shows and take pictures of the bands then.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting because you have-- I swear to God, I have it written really large; Mary Ellen Matthews instead of Mary Ellen Mark.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes. A very well-known photographer.

Alison Stewart: Who did you look up to as a photographer?

Mary Ellen Matthews: Of course, all the great women, for sure. Diane Arbus, Mary Ellen Mark, and Annie Leibovitz. I was gravitated to the comedy within photography also.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Mark Seliger was doing that and a lot of other greats. Movie posters, things like that. I always found that to be like figuring out a puzzle. You have one shot to figure out a whole movie. I admired that.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting because there is a great deal of humor in the book.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I'm just going to jump in. What happens when you get some person who is a little bit self-serious in front of you, and you've got to figure out how to find this essence in them, find the whimsical in them when they're sort of a self-serious person?

Mary Ellen Matthews: I think it's playing against type. You kind of embrace that but maybe there's a silly prop, you kind of ease into that a little bit. I think people who are self-serious or one-way know that.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Mary Ellen Matthews. She makes portraits you see during SNL. We're talking about her new book, The Art of the SNL Portrait. How do you get a gig being the SNL photographer?

Mary Ellen Matthews: Well, I've been very lucky. I'm still honored to be there. I find each week we come back to the show a brand new start, like it's the first day again. I'm not joking when I say that. I find it just to be the most creative job. I mean, what a gift. I was working at a record label and doing all the photography outside of there, and I think I got fired. I can't remember, I got fired or I quit? Do you remember TVT Records?

Alison Stewart: Oh, yes.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes. Yes. I was there.

Alison Stewart: Oh, yes.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Good times, but hard to say. Then I went and checked my answering machine. You know, you dial in and you check your answering machine, and I got a voicemail from somebody who had worked for Edie Baskin. This was in the same hour, so it was sort of like, "Wow."

Alison Stewart: Wow, that's amazing.

Mary Ellen Matthews: It was. She was leaving and she wanted to know if I wanted to interview with Edie Baskin, who was the then-photographer who started all of the iconic photos back in the day.

Alison Stewart: How was it explained to you what your job would be?

Mary Ellen Matthews: I don't know if it was. I started out as a support system, as an assistant, and just learned so much from Edie and gradually got to understand what the job is, so I don't think there was an explanation.

Alison Stewart: When you're shooting these bumpers, it's important that they have the essence of New York associated with them. What does that mean to you when they say the essence of New York?

Mary Ellen Matthews: I think it's a sense of cool. That's what I think it is. There's an edginess, there's an intelligence, there's intellectualness, if I can make that word.

Alison Stewart: Sure.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Sure. Why not? That's how it comes across to me. It's how I like to portray it or have people sort of play around with that.

Alison Stewart: What do you remember about the first time that you met with Lorne Michaels?

Mary Ellen Matthews: Ooh. He was very kind and I was very intimidated but you have to rise to the occasion, as it were. When I stepped into the job after Edie left in 2000, I wanted his approval for sure, but I also wanted his input as to how to move forward now that this was that and now this was going to be this.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting because in reading that bio of him, he talks about how the show is really about young people, and that's how you keep it fresh.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes.

Alison Stewart: How have you evolved as a photographer from 2002 to 2025?

Mary Ellen Matthews: Well, again, I really like to keep it fresh and not do the same thing over and over again. However, in the parameters of what I do, it kind of is the same thing over and over again. My challenge is maybe come up with new techniques or turn the box upside down and just keep it going in something different. To answer your question, there's so much out there now with Instagram and social media, so you are seeing so much talent and so much creativity. That is always just something so, so important to do is just keep your eyes open, and your heart.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting. Your heart too. What does your week look like?

Mary Ellen Matthews: We shoot on Thursday afternoon with the host and musical guest. That's Thursday. Then Friday is production day, editing, start putting everything together. Then Saturday is continuation of that. Then during the week, I have a great staff; Will, Roz, and Alex, shout-out. There's a lot of other photography that happens on the show besides that. That's more of an administrative time. I'm thinking and concepting and gathering props and talking to stylists and people who are going to help on the creative side of what I do.

Alison Stewart: I was gonna ask on the creative side, when does that start? When do you start thinking about what it's going-- Oh?

Mary Ellen Matthews: I was just in your green room just looking. I make little folders of people for people. Jack Black is this week, so he hasn't been on in a minute, but he's amazing. Very excited for him and just looking through some ideas I have now.

Alison Stewart: When you flip through the book, the colors really stand out, and how you match the background with what the person's wearing. How do you think about the role of color in your work?

Mary Ellen Matthews: It's such a gift, I guess, to have luminosity behind these images because they're on televisions and computer screens. It's not a printed image so the color space, there's much more room to play with.

Alison Stewart: Oh, my gosh. That's really interesting.

Mary Ellen Matthews: When we were going to do this book, having to print, it was like, "Oh, no," of going from apples to an orange was not easy. The publisher, Abrams, did a great job with that. It took a little minute to get it right.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about the cover. The cover features Andy Samberg dressed as an olive. Relaxing, shall we say?

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes.

Alison Stewart: He's in a-

Mary Ellen Matthews: Martini glass.

Alison Stewart: -[unintelligible 00:10:46] [crosstalk] glass. First of all, how did you decide that this would be the cover?

Mary Ellen Matthews: There was no question.

Alison Stewart: Really?

Mary Ellen Matthews: There was no question. Absolutely not. I can't go any further without mentioning that he does have a pimento hat on,-

Alison Stewart: Yes, he does have a pimento.

Mary Ellen Matthews: -which you noticed though.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Like a beret.

Mary Ellen Matthews: It's a beret. Yes. Just there's a sense of ridiculousness, of joy, of presence, that Andy's just being the olive. There's no question that he's not the olive there.

Alison Stewart: On the back, you have Scarlett Johansson.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Gorgeous Scarlett in that beautiful smile, bookending it with the martini glasses, which is sort of the same way it goes through the book. It sort of makes sense that way.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting because some of the portraits are just wild, just like crazy imagination. Then some, it's almost a take on the person, on a moment that they're having at that moment. How do you make that call, when to just be crazy and go over the edge or really to just capture somebody in an image?

Mary Ellen Matthews: I really like to represent that side of somebody. It's also good for the show because the show is just chaos. You're coming in at commercials and the band and this and that. It's nice to come back to a quiet moment once in a while. The comedy of the shots sometimes are perfect. I do like that quiet portrait now and again because it's a little bit unexpected.

Alison Stewart: My guest is photographer Mary Ellen Matthews. She makes the portraits you see during SNL. We're speaking about her new book called The Art of the SNL Portrait. Mulvaney. Mulvaney gets this whole section in the book.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Mulaney.

Alison Stewart: Mulaney. Excuse me, sorry, "John Mulaney" gets this whole section in the book.

Mary Ellen Matthews: I've like, "Who's John Mulvaney?"

Alison Stewart: Probably some guy. Why was he a person that you wanted to feature in your book?

Mary Ellen Matthews: We did a case study on John Mulaney because he's such a collaborator. He's so enthusiastic and excited about this part of the show, doing our photos together. Weeks before I even know he's booked, he'll text me and be like, "I'm coming in," and da, da, da. He has a ton of ideas. I have a ton of ideas. He's that type of person who's so rich for ideas. Like, you can just go, "What's our theme?" We've done a couple themes, like a thematic show. Last one we did, which isn't in the book, old '70s commercials. One was the Brooke Shields, "Me and my Calvins."

Alison Stewart: Oh my gosh.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Mikey likes it. He's such a great actor, of course. And a comic mind.

Alison Stewart: That's interesting. Do you find that actors start acting when they're getting their pictures taken?

Mary Ellen Matthews: Sure. Sure. Yes. That's what we want. Of course. To come up with these ideas instead of just standing there in front of a seamless, with all this press and stuff, I've had to do it, and it's so hard. It's really hard. I'm sure you know, too. If you're given a setup or a scenario, you can kind of not be so awkward and kind of get into the thing and bring something to it.

Alison Stewart: I think you took a picture of me once.

Mary Ellen Matthews: I probably did.

Alison Stewart: For NBC.

Mary Ellen Matthews: MSNBC?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: I think you did. It was great.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Weren't we at MTV at the same time?

Alison Stewart: Yes, we were.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes. [unintelligible 00:14:15] Awesome.

Alison Stewart: I remember. I remember feeling really comfortable with you.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Oh, nice to hear.

Alison Stewart: Some photographers don't always make you feel comfortable. I was all dolled up and I had the-

Mary Ellen Matthews: I have to dig these out.

Alison Stewart: -MSNBC makeup, the whole thing. You made me feel very comfortable on set.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Oh, good. So nice to hear.

Alison Stewart: How do you go about making someone feel comfortable? Those situations are weird. There's lighting and there's people putting light meters in front of your face, and it's weird.

Mary Ellen Matthews: It's like, "Perform. Here we go." I have a great crew, like I said. We have a great vibe and we try to neutralize that.

Alison Stewart: Interesting.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Great music. Rolling Stones usually pops on, or whatever they want to listen to. We'll plug in their iPod. I also like to make it you're not thinking about it too much, just go through it quickly. Not super fast, but have fun. Not take ourselves too seriously. "Let's just have fun with this."

Alison Stewart: You also did SNL at home during COVID.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Oh. Loved that so much.

Alison Stewart: That must have been actually, a very hard thing to figure out how to capture New York during cover. Tell us a little bit about that.

Mary Ellen Matthews: We did At-Home Show. Everybody was at their own place and everyone zoomed it in. No one even said, "You might want to do this." They were like, "We need eight photos. What are you going to do?" I got out the condiments and did a Jackson Pollock-type thing. My dog played a big part, Daphne. Then I had two friends around. We were tested. Don't worry. Nobody won't worry. They helped me with the fabrication of the little cities. Shawn Patrick Anderson and [unintelligible 00:16:12] Lana Eddie. That was really lucky to have that help. It was such a great creative outlet at the time. I would love to do it again. Not with any pandemic, though.

Alison Stewart: Exactly. Something else.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Who was a person that you were supposed to photograph that you were a little nervous about?

Mary Ellen Matthews: Well, your rock gods, Paul McCartney and your Mick Jagger, for sure.

Alison Stewart: They're always nice. The bigger the star, the nicer they are. That's the rule.

Mary Ellen Matthews: I've told this story before, but when Paul McCartney was on the first time, he could tell I was just a wreck. He took the stool, put it in place, and he said, "My wife was a photographer," and so broke the ice that way.

Alison Stewart: Who was a young person who came in, someone fairly new, who you thought, "You know what? This person's got it"?

Mary Ellen Matthews: So many. I've got to say, because this is what's happening now. It's all these younger kids. YouTube, Tate McRae, or Morgan Wallen was on. We're at a different level of people that we've run with and so this is exciting for me to get to know these younger performers. To answer your question, I think all of them. I'm so impressed by the level of professionalism.

Alison Stewart: I actually wondered about Timothée Chalamet. Just watching him grow up when he was on the show the first time versus when he was on the last time, it's interesting. You get to see people at different stages in their career.

Mary Ellen Matthews: He talked about that. He mentioned how many years it was. I can't remember because my brain's broken. It's been a minute, like 10 years maybe. He talked about that. I was like, "Right. You're right."

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is The Art of the SNL Portrait. It is full of beautiful photographs by my guest, Mary Ellen Matthews. Congratulations on the book.

Mary Ellen Matthews: Thank you. Thank you so much. It was so nice to see you. Thank you for having me in.

Alison Stewart: Absolutely. Coming up on tomorrow's show, we'll speak with some actors and writers behind the absurdly funny new Broadway musical Operation Mincemeat. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here tomorrow.