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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, in for Alison Stewart. 2024 is a big year for New York Centennials. It's the 100th anniversary of the founding of the New York state park system, the New York Giants turn 100 in August, and we here at WNYC are about to kick off our 100th year on air. The number 100 is in the air, everyone. It's also the 100th anniversary of the birth of one of the city's most important and inspiring New Yorkers, Shirley Chisholm. The legendary legislator was born in November 1924 in Brooklyn. She went to Girls' High in Bedford Stuyvesant, then graduated Brooklyn College, and in 1968 she made history.

Shirley Chisholm: Not only am I going to be the first Black congressman from Brooklyn, but also, I am going to be, I have become the first Black woman in this country to go to Congress.

Kousha Navidar: Now the Museum of the City of New York is marking the centennial of her birth with an exhibition. It's titled, Changing the Face of Democracy: Shirley Chisholm at 100, and joining me now to discuss the exhibits are co-curators, Dr. Zinga A. Fraser and Dr. Sarah Seidman. Welcome to All Of It, both of you.

Zinga Fraser: Thank you.

Dr. Sarah Seidman: Thanks so much.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Such a pleasure to have you here and talk about this exhibit. The title of the exhibit, Changing Democracy, I know it's time to the centennial of Shirley Chisholm's birth year but also, it's landing at a time when we're in the midst of a presidential election, there's a lot of our democratic norms being challenged. Zinga, let's start with you. When you were putting the exhibit together, how were you thinking of this current moment?

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: I was thinking of the importance of Chisholm providing us a roadmap of how we reimagine democracy. When Chisholm ran in '68 or even before when she went for the New York State Assembly, she's pushing a norm of saying, who should we think should be a part of representative democracy, and the ways in which she tried her best to push a policy agenda that made democracy and made government really speak to the needs of marginalized people. When she runs for the presidency as well, she's trying to form and create coalitions of marginalized people. People who were not a part of the political domain.

People who were invisible and unheard. She tried to represent that coalition of people. I think we're in a political moment in time where Chisholm's words, her policies, her initiatives, her struggles, and triumphs, even though this is a triumphant, in many ways, exhibit, it's also about the struggles of her pushing really the powers that be and pushing the status quo. Her deliberate discussion around being unbought and unbossed. What does that mean? What does it mean to reimagine a democracy where an African American woman is at the head reaching for the highest goal of the country?

What does it mean for people who see her when they're running? This idea of reimagining what democracy looked like, what it felt like, even what it smelled, all of those senses that Chisholm awakened in a generation of people who were really distraught. You have the Vietnam War happening. Young people are getting the right to vote. Turning 18 and having that ability to vote for the first time.

Kousha Navidar: I hear you talk about continuing conversations in a certain way. Sarah, for you, what kind of conversations do you hope that this exhibit evokes for the people going there?

Dr. Sarah Seidman: Several. I think, as the Museum in the City of New York setting, having folks learn more about the New York City networks, the unique communities in New York City that she emerges from, be it Caribbean, American diaspora in Brooklyn, or the Brooklyn political scene, I think learning more about how New York City facilitated her emergence, and also just what she stood for and the policy work that people that maybe don't know as much about. More and more people know her name, although not enough, but what did she do? What did she fight for? How do you visualize that in a museum exhibit?

Kousha Navidar: That's a really important part of the exhibit, specifically, when you mentioned Caribbean, one thing that I really appreciated was that the exhibit talks a lot about Shirley's political legacy and her career, which we'll get to in a moment but one of the things that's so important is it delves into her early years. Her parents were from Barbados and she spent a few years of her childhood there. What did you want people to make sure that they understood about this part of Shirley Chisholm's background?

Dr. Sarah Seidman: Zinga and I talked a lot about how migration is a two-way street and not just one direction to the United States. I think that's a major point that we wanted to get across. Also, absolutely, her family and her broader Barbadian and Caribbean American communities in Brooklyn at large influenced a lot of her positions, her views. Her father was a follower of Marcus Garvey. Lots of other things she follows in the path of other Caribbean Black politicians in Brooklyn. I think the legacy there is really rich.

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: Also, the importance of colonialism. People don't think about her understanding of being a colonial subject looks like, the influence of colonialism in Barbados, and also its influence in terms of the economic framework. The framework of immigrants who are Korean Americans who are placed or who find themselves in New York City during that time.

Kousha Navidar: Are you thinking of a specific piece of the exhibit when you talk about that colonialism and how she sits with it?

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: I think the first part where you see, I guess, the manifest of her going back to Barbados, the other part of it's not only colonialism but it's also the joy of fighting for space in America, even though she's Caribbean. We do have her being one of the first proponents of the West Indian Day Parade in Brooklyn that's still in existence and her connections to that as well as the importance of Carnival.

If we think about someone like a Cowboys Davis who talks about the politics of Carnival and the importance of African diasporic people having a space to be who they are, to embrace their own kind of traditions and cultures, and those who who are familiar with carnival, even in the West Indian Day Parade, it's not just about gallivanting as people would say because my family's from Jamaica.

It's not about just dancing and whining up. It's about learning the traditions of Carnival. People who play when you see the float, it's not just about that day. They take months and years to create costumes, to learn about the still pan, the importance of even Caribbean food. Where does jerk come from? What are those cultural connections that connect people to the space and making sure that those connections are passed down to generations?

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking about the exhibit named Changing the Face of Democracy: Shirley Chisholm at 100. We're celebrating the 100th anniversary of her birth and it's at the Museum of the City of New York now through July of 2025. We're here with Dr. Zinga Fraser and Dr. Sarah Seidman who are the co-curators. Another part of this exhibit that I really appreciated was all the audio that was a part of it. You can pick something up and hear her actually speaking. One piece that people can listen to is her talking a bit about having an accent. Let's listen to that audio.

Shirley Chisholm: When I came to this country, because I had a very, very marked West Indian accent, of course, I still have traces of it, but it was very marked with the lilt in my voice and the real sing-song in my inflection, and people would laugh or smile or snicker whenever I would speak, and I became quite conscious of it.

Kousha Navidar: Sarah, why was it important to capture about this time in her life?

Dr. Sarah Seidman: The piece really struck me as I was combing through the archives in a lot of ways, just her talking about her childhood, her talking so matter of factly about being discriminated against, but how she capitalized on the behavior of others to read a lot. She talks then about how she became somewhat introverted and read vociferously and how that informed her debate powers and her intellect in her later in life as she grew up. I think both the hardships that she faced and how she addressed them head on was very inspiring tome.

Kousha Navidar: How do you think her Brooklyn childhood influenced her life as an adult?

Dr. Sarah Seidman: I think in all ways. She definitely is so Brooklyn-identified. She talks about living Brownsville, surrounded by Jewish neighbors, and it was still largely a Jewish neighborhood. I think we get at some of the organizing on one of her campaigns in Bushwick and how she basically moved to Bushwick for three days, as she put it, and just organized the women in Bushwick. I think she talks a lot. That's why we wanted that table with the audio in the middle of the room to really have audiences hear and see her in her own words pretty directly about the diversity of Brooklyn, about how different New York communities came together and clashed. That seems like such a quintessential New York story for us.

Kousha Navidar: What was your process like, Zinga, I'll send this to you, of finding that audio? How did you choose which ones you wanted to pick?

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: I think we wanted to provide a wide array of inserts that talk and speak to Chisholm. I know that we have oral histories from the Shirley Chisholm Project which is doing this exhibit in conjunction with the museum. We wanted to make sure that we spoke to the depth of who Chisholm was. She was also someone who spoke fluent Spanish. Our exhibit is bilingual. The importance of Brooklyn is also, as Sarah said, as a diasporic space. It's not just one thing. It's not just African Americans. It's not just Afro-Caribbeans. It's Jewish. It's Hispanics. It's a mosh of different cultures and ethnicities and perspectives.

Kousha Navidar: There's this other clip that I really enjoyed where she announces her presidential campaign. Generally, I would say that her political career is what she's most known for. The exhibit goes into details for that. As we said, for listeners, just for some context, she became the first Black woman elected to Congress in 1968. In her congressional career, she became a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus, as well as the National Women's Political Caucus.

She talked about abortion rights in her first term in Congress. In 1972, she ran for president as an outspoken supporter of civil rights, the Equal Rights Amendment, economic justice. Zinga, you mentioned the slogan, unbought and unbossed, which was a cultural moment of her time. Here is that clip that I really enjoyed of her announcing her candidacy for president.

Shirley Chisholm: I am not the candidate of Black America, although I am Black and proud.

[applause]

Shirley Chisholm: I am not the candidate of the women's movement of this country, although I am a woman and I'm equally proud of that.

[applause]

Shirley Chisholm: I am not the candidate of any political bosses or fat cats or special interests.

Kousha Navidar: Just hearing that is really powerful. Sarah, I see you nodding your head as you're listening along. What's your reaction to that when you listen to it?

Dr. Sarah Seidman: Yes, it's just great every time, I would say. Just her integrity. Has anyone ever had a more perfect political motto that suited their MO? It's just striking. Even someone who's been working on her for-- we've been working on this for two years. Zinga's, obviously, been working on Chisholm for much longer than that. Still, every time I hear it, I agree it's very powerful and shows her independence, be it dealing with Democratic political clubs at the very local level in Brooklyn or endorsing Mayor Lindsay when he was an independent at that point and bucking the Democratic Party.

It's not just a motto or pushing the envelope in Congress when she enters as a freshman Democrat and they assign her to the rural agriculture subcommittee. She responds like, "What you heard, a tree grows in Brooklyn so I'm supposed to be on this committee that doesn't represent my constituents." She pushes back. I think we see how powerful the words are, but also a lot of examples in her life where she was living those words.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, Zinga, how about for you? What's that reaction? Because you've been studying and documenting for so long.

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: Yes, over 17 years. Yes. I think what strikes me now because I'm also finishing up two books on Chisholm, is that she is really trying, as I said before, trying to create a moment where people are connected to have a coalition base. She knows that she can't win with just African-American support. She knows that she can't win just with women and also the political strings and the toll it placed on her. Because African-Americans or Black people really wanted her to be the Black candidate.

Women wanted her to be the woman's candidate. She's saying, "I'm actually all of those." She's also providing a analysis of intersectionality before Kimberlé Crenshaw comes up with the term. She is engrossed in Black feminism during this time as well. She's reading people like France Bill and others, Black feminist writers at this time. I think people don't necessarily-- she's a smart woman, but she's, as Sarah said, she's a vociferous reader, but she's ingrained in that ideology.

Those things really impact her thinking about what do I bring as a presidential candidate? What can I do? Her belief was if we had a coalition of marginalized people, if they see themselves through me as being the person who's a low on the totem pole in society running for this and speaking to their needs. What does that mean for us? How can we really gain political power? She's not doing it as a fly by night. She's really strategically thinking, how do we create this coalition?

It's the same coalition as we look at today as a political scientist that Obama wins on. It's not a fly by night if you're able to have the networks. Unfortunately, Chisholm didn't have the money. She didn't have the structure. She didn't have the people on the ground as much. She creates a roadmap that Jesse Jackson connects to. Then you can trace that longevity to Barack Obama when he first won.

Kousha Navidar: Was that part of what you wanted to do with the exhibit, was show the longevity and the way that her approach and her conception to politics would echo after?

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: Yes. Everything I do for Chisholm is two words, political strategist. Because we place her as this first and symbolic person that erases all the strategy and genius of her. It was very important in terms of the ways and I present in the ways that Sarah and I discussed. The exhibit is really to show her political genius and her strategy.

Kousha Navidar: Well, it's impossible to view this exhibit and not think, "Wow, a lot of the work is still undone." You mentioned this earlier, the conversation is still going on. That idea of the work not being done, but still having hope, I guess, if you can use that word. How did you approach that? Because the exhibit does feel relatively optimistic. Take a step back. Sometimes maybe that's a question if you could feel so. How did you [unintelligible 00:18:01]? Does that-- I'm sure that crossed your mind.

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: I don't know if I was optimistic though. I think she's trying to reimagine if that's optimistic. I think she's still very pragmatic. It actually feels sad and melancholy at the end to me. Just because where we go in '72 and maybe in the early '80s and where we are in 2024 is a melancholy moment. We did not heed. I think as a nation, we're not heeding Chisholm. We do need Chisholm right now. The Faith Ringgold piece "Shirley Help Us", I think does resonate to this political moment.

I'm a political scientist so I can talk to politics. I think that we're in this moment where it's a sad moment that we're in a political moment where a woman still hasn't broken that ceiling that, yes, we have Kamala Harris, but when she was running that no one still has gotten to the convention floor that Chisholm got to in '72. That's not a forward move. I don't think.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, go ahead, Sarah.

Dr. Sarah Seidman: I totally agree. I think as a historian, I also carry activist New York at the Museum in the City of New York. Sometimes it's hard to know where to end and on what note, given the challenges we face today. I do try to take comfort in the subsequent generations who are inspired by figures such as Chisholm. One of the reasons we wanted the show open all year so we could have field trips and school programs that come in and have work with DOE on civics for all. I think trying to educate the next generation and maybe they can take on some of this. Let's hope.

Kousha Navidar: You know, what was another thing that was really cool about the exhibit was the voting booth, because you have an actual pull-the-lever voting booth which was perfect for an election year by the way. It's from the 1972 Presidential primary election in June and Shirley's name is at the top of the ballot. Then you have the other names that go down, some of them Hubert Humphrey, Edward Kennedy, et cetera. Sarah, what made you want to include an actual voting booth, where'd you get it from?

Dr. Sarah Seidman: We got it from the Board of Elections. It was fantastic to work with them. I think we were always trying to think about ways to have folks interact either digitally, but also just analog using their hands and voting. There are still many of them in a warehouse and we are lucky enough to borrow one and so far folks seem to love it.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. Is it interesting to actually go through that process because I'm sure you've played around with it a little bit, right? What does it feel like to actually pull the lever?

Dr. Sarah Seidman: Yes, I remember those voting machines, they haven't been out of commission for that long. It does feel like you're, I don't know, accomplishing something with the pushing of the levers and, yes, we added all of the major figures in the national election, not all of whom appeared on the New York ballot. It's slightly symbolic, but we invite people to vote often for once. I think it's fun as well as reminds people of like the act of voting and also have a QR code for folks who want to register to vote themselves in this year's election.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. We do have the audio of lever polling, which I would love to just play really quick, here it is. It is so tactile. I love how tactile that sound is. I'm looking at the clock we're just coming up but there's another important element of Shirley Chisholm's story and that's being bilingual. Zinga, I want ask you the exhibit itself is bilingual as well. Can you talk to us about why you made that choice?

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: I think mainly because Chisholm was bilingual and she understood the importance of speaking in a language to people that was other than English. I think that was a definite decision and commitment of the exhibit and the museum to do that work and have it be able to be engaged by other constituencies.

Dr. Sarah Seidman: To build on other shows that we're doing, we have a show up on Manny Vega right now, East Harlem artist, and that's also a bilingual show in Spanish and English. Also just recognizing our location and then wanting folks to know that they can come see shows in both languages.

Kousha Navidar: Well, if you would like to go see the show, it is called Changing the Face of Democracy: Shirley Chisholm at 100. It's at the Museum of the City of New York now through July of 2025. We've been joined by Dr. Zinga Fraser and Dr. Sarah Seidman, who are the co-creators. Thank you both so much for this work-

Dr. Sarah Seidman: Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: -and for coming by.

Dr. Zinga A. Fraser: Thanks so much. It's been great.

Kousha Navidar: That's our show for today, coming up in just a minute, in a special Juneteenth celebration from Notes from America, Kai Wright goes to Houston, Texas, to explore the impact of Black liberation on today's politics and democracy. That's next right here on WNYC. Stay with us.

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