[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. Live from the studios in Soho, I'm Alison Stewart. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here on the show today. We'll speak with Vee, formerly Eve Ensler, and Hollis Heath, about the new audio play, Voices: a sacred sisterscape. It's full of stories written and narrated by black women. We'll also talk to documentarian Penny Lane about her new film, which follows her decision to donate a kidney to a complete stranger. If you're planning a birthday party in the park this summer, we have some tips from writer Laura Fenton. That's the plan. Let's get this started with some Roctogenarians.

[music]

Alison Stewart: Mo Rocca is a guy who likes a good portmanteau. The title of his last book, Mobituaries, was, as in Mo's take on obituaries. The title of his new book is Roctogenarians, which is a mashup of rockstar and octogenarian, aka some seriously impressive older folks. That's exactly what the book's about. From architect Frank Lloyd Wright, who designed the Guggenheim at age 84, to the artist Henri Matisse's self-reinvention in the 70s, to people who didn't learn to read until later in life, to Jedi Master Yoda, who trained Luke Skywalker at 900 years young. Yes, notice in the book.

All these examples and dozens of others in the book serve to demonstrate that age is really just a number, that the doors of opportunity don't close because you've been around longer than most folks. That great achievements often take a lifetime of experience to accomplish. Joining me now to talk about his new book, Roctogenarians: Late in Life Debuts, Comebacks, and Triumphs, please welcome humorist and journalist Mo Rocca. Nice to see you, Mo.

Mo Rocca: It's great to be with you, Alison.

Alison Stewart: You write, as you were getting older, you felt like doors were closing in on you. Why do you think that idea is so ubiquitous, that age means slowing down, even stopping?

Mo Rocca: I don't know how this pervasive, insidious idea that you're supposed to wind things up in the last third of your life, I don't know how it took such hold. We know that we're very youth oriented. One of the reasons may be people that are not quite in the older years, yet look at people who are much older and want to create a distance, and marginalize them. Ageism is real. It's really, really stupid, because there's all this great human capital and talent, and wisdom, and experience that's a lot of the time being dismissed out of hand.

Alison Stewart: Hey, Roctogenarians, aka listeners who have a compliment to celebrate after 80 years old, you should give us a call. We want to hear from you. Yes. Do not be afraid to brag. We want to know what you have been thinking, what you think you were too old to do but you did it anyway. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We can also take calls from your younger folks who want to shout out the Roctogenarians in their lives. Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call that number. You can text that number. You can also reach out on social media @allofitwnyc.

Mo, we have a clip from a 2015 episode of "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" the news quiz, which you're a panelist on. You had a moment with Chance the Rapper that you say changed your thinking about age. Peter Sagal introduces Chance, and then you get to ask him a question. Let's roll it.

Mo Rocca: You haven't been growing up for very long. You're only about, what, you're 23?

Chance: I'm 22. I'll be 23--

Mo Rocca: You're 22?

Chance: Yes. I'm a young guy.

Mo Rocca: You are.

Chance: Yes.

Mo Rocca: This is the story we heard, which is that you've been performing since you were a kid, right?

Chance: Yes. I started out doing talent shows, and open mic programs, and youth programs around the city. Yes, I've been doing it for a while now.

Mo Rocca: We heard you at one point, you did a fine Michael Jackson impersonation.

Chance: Wow, that's crazy. That's deep. Yes, I did do that at my kindergarten graduation. [applause]

Mo Rocca: Would you please give it to me straight? I'm 46. Is it too late for me to become a rapper?

Chance: No, I don't think so. Some people might say it's too soon for you to become a rapper. You know what I'm saying? [applause] There's a certain experience.

Mo Rocca: I have to tell you that I was thunderstruck by that exchange because the question I asked him, am I too old to be a rapper? Was meant as a hacky, easy, jokey question for a cheap laugh, which is exactly what it was. His response really froze me in my tracks, because as you could hear there, he just straight on said, some people might say it's too soon.

I think the reason I was thunderstruck by that exchange is, and I was also embarrassed was I realized that beneath my jokey question, was a sense that I was kind of over the hill at 46. It was kind of crazy that that would even occur to me to ask, even as a joke. I'm nothing likely to become a rap star. I get it. That's not likely--

Alison Stewart: God darn it. [laughs]

Mo Rocca: I know, I hate to disappoint all of your listeners. It is true that as I get older, I hope that I have more to say, something more meaningful to express creatively.

Alison Stewart: You start the book with a fast food entrepreneur, with Colonel Sanders. Why did that seem like the right place to start?

Mo Rocca: Well, because who doesn't love KFC or hasn't loved it at one point in their life? It's also a story that never gets old. I was vaguely aware of it before we, me and my co-author Jonathan Greenberg and I delved into it. Colonel Sanders was living his life. His real name was Harland Sanders in the small town of Corbin, Kentucky. He was raised in a very poor family. He had worked all sorts of jobs as a teenager, including midwife to get by.

By his middle age, he was doing okay. He had a Shell station/chicken and biscuits joint in this town of Corbin, Kentucky, but then in the 1950s, a highway bypassed the town. The bottom fell out of his business. He had to sell it at a loss at auction. And at the age of 66, living off of Social Security, which was then $105 a month, he got in his car with two pressure cookers and a bucket of his secret recipe of eleven herbs and spices and drove town to town, restaurant to restaurant cooking for people. Within eight years, he was the face of a Kentucky Fried empire of 800 outlets worldwide. It's just, it's a great story.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. We've got Lorraine calling in from Ocean Grove. Hi, Lorraine. Thanks for calling into All Of It.

Lorraine: Thank you. I'm a Sustaining member. I know Brian Lehrer and he can vouch for everything I'm about to tell you because he met my two boys. I will be 73 in six weeks, and I have an 11 and a 12-year-old that I adopted 10 years ago. I always wanted to be a parent, but my career always came first, and I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom.

I was able to do it. I was in IT. I was a nuclear medicine technologist at the time. When I adopted them, soon after that COVID hit. I didn't want to be in the medical industry for obvious reasons. I home schooled them. While I was homeschooling them, at night, I studied IT support. Now I work full time with Social Security and IT support repairing computers and installing servers, working for everybody from Nike to HomeGoods. I get to spend all the time I need with my boys. One is 12 now, the other is 11. One is a full time athlete. He met Brian at a Yankee game because he won tickets.

For anybody that's worried about what to do when they pass 60, all they have to do is put some glasses on if they need them, and be ready to look far ahead. You need to look far ahead.

Alison Stewart: I love it. I love it. Lorraine, thank you so much for calling.

Mo Rocca: I feel like Lorraine should narrate the audiobook here. I already recorded it, but that is such a great story. We include stories of personal late in life milestones, late in life parenthood, late in life marriage. There's a great story of Carol Channing, who found love with her junior high school sweetheart when she was 82 and he was 83. They only lived for a couple more years, but they were apparently the most blissful years of her life, at least. Late in life parenthood, we include a tortoise named Mr. Pickles, a Houston zoo tortoise who became a first-time father at 90, and you were impressed by Al Pacino.

Lorraine's story is so moving because it's both. She basically started a whole new life.

Alison Stewart: I love that idea of switching gears, just deciding you're tired of one thing, not tired, you're just done with one thing. You're just done with that, and you want to start something new.

Mo Rocca: It's interesting, Alison because I feel like there are a lot of people-- I'm not dissing lawyers here, but I happen to know a lot of lawyers in my life who say, "Oh, when I get to a certain point, I'm going to do this other thing I always wanted to do and give back or start this nonprofit," and something stops them from doing it. The book includes the story of Yasmeen Lari, the very first professional woman architect of Pakistan. She was a real starchitect. Really, really heralded a very big deal.

After the 2005 earthquake in Kashmir that killed 80,000 people and left half a million families homeless, she did what she said she always wanted to do, which she switched gears and completely devoted herself to sustainable housing using traditional Pakistani building methods. She changed her life completely. She's rightly heralded now for helping to house at this point, tens of thousands of Pakistanis.

Alison Stewart: Starchitect.

Mo Rocca: Yes. She was a starchitect. Right.

Alison Stewart: I see what you did there.

Mo Rocca: I smell reality show.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to William in Maplewood, New Jersey. Hi, William. Thanks for calling in.

William: Oh, my pleasure. You asked about a thing that us old codgers can still do. I can windsurf across the lake. Are you interested in this?

Alison Stewart: Absolutely.

Mo Rocca: Yes, keep going. I'm terrible at this. Go. You can teach me. You windsurf across the lake.

William: At Sandy Hook. I go down there and wind surf at Sandy Hook. The other thing, I can still swim the length of the pool underwater. Those are my minor achievements at my advanced age.

Mo Rocca: That's like a very mission impossible type thing. It makes me think of the story of Diana Nyad, who's also in the book, right. Who, when she was 28, she tried swimming. She was already a big star. She had been on Johnny Carson when she swam around the island of Manhattan in the 1970s. But at 28, when she tried to swim from Cuba to the Florida Keys, it didn't work out. She put the dream aside for 30 years then she resumed it at 58.

Here's where it gets remarkable. She still had to go over and over again and try, and she kept failing. Box jellyfish were stinging her. Then she accomplished it at the age of 64.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Doug from Bellevue. Hey, Doug. You're on the air.

Doug: Hey.

Alison Stewart: Hey.

Doug: This is an honor. Thank you. I had to call because although she's having a little trouble right now, my mom is 89. And at age 68, after a long life and a life with a mother who said, "You're going to be a teacher, not an actress," and she was obedient, she became a teacher. At 68, she became a standup comedian.

Mo Rocca: Wow.

Doug: She had a little under 20 years of fabulosity, and giving motivational talks called It's Never Too Late, where she told the story of her life and why she became a comedian, and then she'd go into her act. She was hilariously funny. In fact, my partner, and I quote her just about every day.

Mo Rocca: Can I just tell you, this is even more impressive than the story of Estelle Getty, who had held onto her dream of acting all of her life since she was a child. She waited tables in the Catskills. She got married at 23. She had two sons. Then finally, in her 50s, when they went off to college, she rededicated herself to this dream, and at 62, made her network television debut as Sophia, the mother in the Golden Girls. Your mother doing what is the scariest thing in comedy at the age of 68 is just awesome.

Alison Stewart: I love that. Say hi to your mom. Hope things go well. You're listening to Mo Rocca. He has written a book called Roctogenarians: Late in Life Debuts, Comebacks, and Triumphs. Roctogenarians, listeners who accomplished so much after the age of 80, give us a call. We want to hear from you. Do not be afraid to brag. What have you accomplished? Tell us. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We can also take calls from younger folks who want to shout out the Roctogenarians in their lives. The number again is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC.

You have a section here about writers, about Laura Ingalls Wilder, who wrote The Little House series, Frank McCourt, who wrote Angela's Ashes, Peter Roget, who you said took the thesaurus to another level. You have a whole section of people who learn to read later in life. When you're talking about the thesaurus, any good words you think we should use to replace aging, since aging has got a negative vibe about it?

Mo Rocca: Well, that's a great question. Growing, expanding, deepening, deepening. Listen, one thing, Alison, old people are my jam. I've been interviewing them for a long time. The thing I find is that as people get older, I know it's a generality, they care less about what other people think of them.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that was a very nice way you put that, because I interviewed a lot of old folks for my first book, for the Dunbar book. They have no leaps left to give. They don't say, you've seen it all.

Mo Rocca: Don't you feel like when you interview somebody like that, you have to come to them. They're not playing up to you, and it makes your job, my job as an interviewer, much more interesting, because they are who they are. I went around the country for my cooking show, cooking with grandmothers and grandfathers in their kitchens. Their attitudes most of the time were, "What? You want to come watch me cook? All right, fine."

They weren't trying to sell me on something. It's no surprise that so many people accomplish great things later in life because they're unfettered, they're not held back. They're not crowdsourcing their decisions or who they are.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about Roctogenarians: Late in Life Debuts, Comebacks, and Triumphs. It's the new book from Mo Rocca. We'll have more with Mo and more of your calls after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Mo Rocca. He wrote a book called Roctogenarians: Late in Life Debuts, Comebacks, and Triumphs. Peppered throughout the book, you have these sections that are based on wordplay, on the idioms of the word old. Old money, Warren Buffett, old spice, Sophia Loren, old country for Willie Nelson. How did you decide who would fit the mold?

Mo Rocca: Well, I'll tell you, composing a book like this, part of the fun for me is figuring out the mix. I think of it in terms of sort of protein and carbs. We have longer stories that are maybe weightier or I'd like to say more satisfying, more meaningful that fill you up. Somebody like Mary Church Terrell, who at 86 began leading sit-ins at segregated Washington DC lunch counters. That's a story that kind of fills you with awe. I think you also need carbs like sugar rush, like stories like Mr. Pickles, the tortoise.

Throughout the book, there are these one pagers. Old Yeller is Ethel Merman, who had a big-- Really, honestly, I couldn't contemplate the thought of not using the label old yeller and matching it with Ethel Merman. There was no one else who fit. It really was an issue of, "God, I hope she did something late in life so this works out." Indeed, she did a solo concert at Carnegie Hall when she was in her 70s, and she could still belt to the back of the house.

Yes, so that's part of the fun of it. I think part of, in a book like this, I want people, when they turn the page, to have a sense of surprise and delight, and see who's coming next. Old fogey is John Fogarty, who's still at it.

Alison Stewart: Eileen from Larchmont. At 63, I became a yoga teacher. I left my business life behind and really wanted to figure out who I was. It has been a great investigation. Thanks, Eileen. Also, let's talk to Jim. Hey, Jim, you're on the air.

Jim: Thank you. I'm a longtime first time and sustainer. My wife and I, [unintelligible 00:17:07] are sustainers. I am in my 74th year. I'm more 74 that I'm 73. I'm a vegan, my wife's a dietitian. We are members of the Yonkers Rowing and Paddling Club in Yonkers. They're hosting an event on August 10 where we get in our kayaks and we circumnavigate the Isle of Manhattan in kayaks.

Mo Rocca: That is really, really-- You're like the Diana Nyad of kayaking.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Good laugh.

Mo Rocca: That's fabulous. The fact is, you just did it. You just did it, right? When you think about, what would it feel like now if you hadn't gone for it and hadn't changed your life like this?

Jim: Absolutely, completely. The official name of the event is the Gerry Blackstone Kayak Manhattan Circumnavigation on August 10. I knew they're going to do it, and I thought, "That would be so cool." I said, "Am I too old?" So I said to the leaders of the club, "Hey, can I do this?" They said, "You're in." Going to do it.

Alison Stewart: Love it.

Mo Rocca: Congratulations.

Alison Stewart: Love it.

Mo Rocca: Alison, it makes me think of Frank McCourt, all his life struggled with whether he should tell his story. He knew he wanted to, but something was holding him back, his shame of the poverty he grew up with in Ireland. He finally decided that if he didn't do it, he would die howling. It makes me think of people who say they want to do something later in life and don't do it, they risk dying howling and that's just so painful to contemplate.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Tanya. Tanya, welcome to the show.

Tanya: Hello, Alison. Glad to hear you back.

Alison Stewart: Thank you.

Tanya: I wanted to tell you about my mother, Jean [unintelligible 00:19:05]. This is a woman who will be 84 this year. She did her first marathon at age 64 for charity. She did that and thought she was done. Went to another race and said, "I'll just do a 10K." An 84-year-old said, "Just keep going. You can do it." She's a 50-stater. She has also done them in other countries. She's also involved in the Poor People's Campaign, and this year, she is going to be a West Virginia delegate at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. This is not somebody who is stopping at all. Her attitude is just do it, and it's mind over matter.

Mo Rocca: Her name could very well be placed into nomination at this point. She sounds remarkable.

Alison Stewart: You brought up. I'm going to bring the question up. It was going to be my last question, but I am going to bring it up. Currently, we have running for president a 78-year-old and a 81-year-old. What advice would you give them?

Mo Rocca: Well, I mean, look, I think that they should scrap the second debate, and they should both take a mental acuity test. I think it would be a great live television event, frankly. I want transparency I think as a voter, as a citizen. Here's the thing, we're hearing so much now about the downside of advanced age. Really, my worry is that what's going on right now is going to give more ammunition to people who just want to say, "No, you got to be put out to pasture beyond a certain age." The people who, I think, mindlessly want to fixate on a number, and that's dangerous.

Obviously, the situation we're in now is in flux. This book is in part meant as a counterpoint to this avalanche of negativity about people of advanced age. Look, there are so many different competing schools of thought on this. It is true that certain things diminish your ability to recall proper names, but there are also researchers that say your judgment skyrockets, goes way up after a certain age.

Alison Stewart: Well done. Let's talk to Claire. Claire, thanks for calling.

Claire: Okay.

Alison Stewart: All right. What's up?

Claire: Thank you. Well, I am still the nana who raps instead of naps. Somebody got me on Instagram. I have new ones; one about the debate and one about impeach the court. I would love to read the impeach the court one, if you're real willing.

Alison Stewart: I say go for it. We got a dump button in case there's something we can't hear

Mo Rocca: Wait. Should I try to beatbox while you're doing this? You didn't mean rap. I can't. I'm not going to--

Claire: It doesn't have any music with it, but you can do whatever you want.

Alison Stewart: Go for it.

Claire: It's the court needs to be cut short. Impeach those guys who all truth defies, by granting immune from crimes of the goon, whose law derides secret docks he hides, next to his toilet confides, whistleblowers our country attack. But a sick ex prez, we give him big slack. Our democracy is up for sale thanks to a liar who should be in jail. Our democracy has no pass-fail, now it seems it's up for sale. Thanks to being in cahoots with the most corrupt and fancy black suits justices who are not just. Impeach those six. We must, we must. Especially those who didn't recuse for caring, not that democracy's lose when Supreme Court justices all truth refuse.

Oh, Congress, now please impeach them. Accused of being partisan and bent by corruption, bribes by the devil sent. ASAP we need to disband, remand, not let stand those six on the court. I pray their roles will be halted, cut short, for otherwise democracy no longer works for you and me and truth and law are out to sea, until restored our honesty. Oh, may it be.

Mo Rocca: That was Mc Gabble.

Alison Stewart: Exactly. Thank you for your call and your skill.

Mo Rocca: Her skillz with a Z at the end. That's how the kids spell it.

Alison Stewart: Yes. You have some folks who confound the idea that age is frailty, a 78-year-old who fought in the revolution, a 70-year-old that fought in the civil war. What are some physically impressive feats you've come across that just really drive home the idea that age is a number?

Mo Rocca: Look, there are inevitable limitations that set in physically. The book doesn't have-- it is sparing in examples of people who divide what could be expected physically. We have a whole section on horses. John Henry, the great thoroughbred, who was winning major races at 9, 10 and 11 years old, which is really, really old for a horse. Snowman, the show jumping horse, who was almost sold to a slaughterhouse at 8 and by 11 years old became horse of the year in show jumping competitions.

Those are examples of people who did not, in this case, animals that defied conventional wisdom. Diana Nyad is the chief human in the book, who really impressed physically.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Marina from Greenpoint. Hi, Marina.

Marina: Hello. Happy Wednesday. Thanks so much for taking my call and welcome back. I just wanted to voice how I really appreciate and value conversations that honor elders, honor people who have lived through a lot and taken bold choices. I think ageism is a horrible force, as is ableism, which I think they're two pretty interconnected things about how we imagine ability.

What I really want to say also is that, some of us don't make the 30 under 30 list or 40 under 40, because we come from a lot of trauma and it takes time to heal, and people go through a lot and live through a lot. It's just really assuring to hear the ways that people live into the full dreams that they have for themselves at various points when they are able to get through certain things.

In that note, I actually want to really amplify one of my dear friends who's one of my closest friends is an elder, [unintelligible 00:25:38], who is a fierce land defender, environmental advocate and a disability advocate. She's in her 80s and is a brilliant, committed life force. Thank you so much.

Mo Rocca: It makes me think of Sue Kunitomi Embrey, who was in Manzanar in the internment camp as a Japanese American, and then later in life, lived to see Manzanar become a national historic site. It was largely through her advocacy, which she never, ever gave up on. Or Ed Bray, who learned to read after his wife died. She had helped him get through life not being able to read and was in his late 80s. My colleague Steve Hartman profiled him on CBS, and we write about him in the book.

He said, "I just want to read one book, even if it's about Mickey Mouse." In fact, his first book was about George Washington. He lived until 100 and he's in the Centenarians Hall of Fame of Oklahoma now because of his inspiring story. She's absolutely right. We have 30 under 30, 40 under 40. We need 60 over 60, 70 over 70, because it takes time for people, a lot of people.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Frank from Brattleboro, Vermont. Hi, Frank.

Frank: Hi, Alison. I manage New York's oldest and most treasured concert series, Peoples' Symphony Concerts. We have a subscriber who's 101 years old, and drives himself in to New York from Newark, New Jersey, by himself for our 18 weekend concerts. He's a prize winning amateur photographer, and he was [unintelligible 00:27:24] until he was 99 years old. His name is Fred Damont, and he's an amazing human being.

Alison Stewart: Thank you, Frank.

Mo Rocca: Frank, thank you for that. This person's not a household name and keeps going. We have a section of the book called It's About Time, about people like the man that's being described here who just kept growing creatively, like Carmen Herrera, who was an abstract expressionist painter. It was only when she was 101 that she had a solo exhibition at a major museum. She was still painting. She lived until she was 106.

There are people that, in this case, she and the other two people in that section of the book had marriages of almost 60 years that they credited with getting them through the tough times, but people who go through life continuing to do what they do so well without recognition. It's especially sweet if they get it before their lives are over.

Alison Stewart: Heather from Greenpoint sent us a text. I play drums with the amazing and inspiring Peter Stampfel, an 85-year-old folk psych legend who played in the Holy Modular Rounders and the Fugs back in the day. He's younger than anyone I know, and makes a point of having musicians in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s in his band. He says he loves learning from younger folks. What did you learn writing this book?

Mo Rocca: I learned that these people, and I didn't expect this, these people, as they got older, were actually fretting a lot less. They, even though, and this was counterintuitive to me, even though there's less time on the other side, they were worrying less and they were more present minded. Now, some of them, Frank Lloyd Wright, big ego. I'm sure he was thinking about legacy.

Most of these people were actually just in the moment, that thing that we say we all want. They certainly weren't focused on the past, but they also weren't fretting about the future. They were just acting. They were unfettered. They were free to just do it again, I think in part because they didn't care how other people would react. I think they realized, and this is happening to me and I hope it continues to happen, that, "Might as well go for it. What's the point in not?"

Alison Stewart: Thanks to everybody who called in and texted in. Thanks to Mo Rocca, humorous, journalist and author of Roctogenarians: Late in Life Debuts, Comebacks, and Triumphs. Thanks, Mo.

Mo Rocca: Great being with you, Alison.

 

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