Title: Michael Urie Talks 'Shrinking'

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you are here. We've got some event news. Our January Get Lit with All Of It book club event with author Richard Price is now sold out, but even if you weren't able to grab tickets, you can follow along on the live stream, and of course, you can borrow his novel Lazarus Man from our partners at the New York Times Public Library.

Head to wnyc.org/getlit for more information. Although you might not be able to join us in person for Get Lit this month, you can join us tonight at Joe's Pub for Public Song Project album launch party. It's an evening of music, trivia, food, drinks, and live performances from musicians like Joanna Sternberg and DJ Rekha. Plus, we will be giving out copies of the Public Song Project on vinyl. It all starts tonight at 7:00. Get your tickets @wnyc.org/publicsong. Now that's in the future. Let's get this hour started with actor Michael Urie.

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Alison Stewart: In the heartfelt comedy-drama Shrinking, actor Michael Urie plays Brian, a sharp tongue lawyer. His best friend is a therapist named Jimmy. Now Jimmy's wife was killed in a car accident and it sent him into a spiral. Jimmy iced Brian out, stopped parenting his teenage daughter, and lost that spark of joy he felt helping his patients. That is until he tried out an unconventional way of therapy and he became a little over-involved in a patient's life, and Jimmy calls in a much-needed favor from his lawyer friend, Brian.

Of course, Brian agrees and slowly becomes a part of Jimmy's life again. Now that was the plot of Season 1 of Shrinking. Season 2 just wrapped, complete with a storyline about Brian becoming a parent. It's already been renewed for a third season on Apple TV Plus. Now just this morning, Shrinking received a SAG nomination for outstanding performance by an ensemble in a comedy series, and Michael Urie is up for a Critics Choice award for Shrinking. He also wrapped up his run as Prince Dauntless in Once Upon a Mattress on Broadway in LA, and he joins us now. Hey, good to meet you.

Michael Urie: Hey, you too. Thank you so much for having me.

Alison Stewart: It's such a funny show, but it also, Shrinking, deals with mental health and chosen family. Why is it that you wanted to join this show?

Michael Urie: The pedigree of these artists was the very first reason, but then I read the first episode and it was so funny. Then at times, I found myself welling up with tears within seconds of laughing. I thought, "If this show can maintain this level of comedy and drama at the same time, then it's something really special, and it's going to be a pill people can swallow in terms of actually talking about mental health, which is, I feel like new. I think this taboo of mental health has lessened in the last few years, and we're really talking about the need for it. This show, I think, is really helping people.

Alison Stewart: I read somewhere it said that you sought out therapy when you got on the show. I was like, "Is that a joke or is this real?"

Michael Urie: It's real.

Alison Stewart: It is real?

Michael Urie: It's not because the show was stressful or made me depressed or anything like that. It was because I realized through the show because in every episode we tackle different mental health issues. I realized this isn't just for people who think they're in trouble or who are depressed. Mental health maintenance is for all of us, just the same as physical health maintenance. I was going through a few things of my own and getting in my 40s now and thinking about the past and the future, and I thought, "This is an opportunity for me to talk to somebody and really get a hold of what's going on with me."

The show encouraged me to do it. Now, I don't have a therapist that's taking me boxing or anything like Jimmy does, but it's really good to have somebody and to talk to somebody. I credit the show for encouraging me to do so.

Alison Stewart: How would you describe your character, Brian?

Michael Urie: Brian starts off the show-- as you mentioned in the intro, he's been ghosted by his friend, and when he shows up, he's got this really happy-go-lucky plucky attitude. His mantra is, "Everything goes my way." As he gets back into this group, this chosen family, which is one of the beautiful things about the show is that this chosen family that we've got, is a group that got together over the course of these two seasons. Jimmy's the middle, the heart of the group, but it was his recovery over the last two seasons that let all of the people in his life come together.

When we meet Brian, I think he's got this mantra, "Everything goes my way," and then his longtime partner starts talking about having a baby. They start thinking about becoming parents, and he's back with his friend group and those ideals slip away. This idea that everything is going to work out for him starts to slip away. We see that he's actually a neurotic mess, and that was a wall that he put up.

I feel so lucky because it was fun to play a confident guy who thought he had it all or at least would achieve it all, but it's way more fun to play neuroses. Getting to follow Brian down this new path has been so fun, and watching him navigate being a husband, being a father, or potentially being a father and figure out what his relationship with Jimmy is now after a year of being ghosted and a decades long friendship, what does it mean to reconnect?

The big question that I was so interested in season two is, "Are we even friends anymore or would we be friends if we met today?" That's a big question so many people I think should be-- I think we ask ourselves that a lot with these longtime relationships, especially in the queer community. I can attest to this. When you're in the closet, you are not your whole self. Brian was in the closet when he and Jimmy became friends. "Now here we are 20 years on, and would you be friends with me today."

Alison Stewart: Am I the same guy? Are you the same person? Am I the same person?

Michael Urie: Am I the same guy? Exactly. The truth is we're not. Are we still compatible as friends? Maybe. Probably. Obviously, there's this whole friend group and everything has evolved, but it's a huge question, and I think one that people ask a lot, especially in a queer community or other communities where you were pretending to be something different for a period of time.

Alison Stewart: It's very funny. He talks about his straight self, the way he describes how he reacts to things as his straight self when he was a kid.

Michael Urie: Straight Brian.

Alison Stewart: Yes, straight Brian. What was the chemistry like between you and Jason Segel?

Michael Urie: It was immediate. Jason is one of the greatest actors I've ever worked with. He's the most prepared, most professional, and kindest person on the set. First of all, it's very easy to act with him because he's so alive and so present and so prepared, but he's also such a sweet, sweet guy in real life. I was nervous. I was like, "Will I be able to be best friends with this guy? We don't know each other." I did not know him before I got the job. Immediately, as soon as I saw him, he gave me a big bear hug and put me at ease. It's been very easy. You just look him in the eye and you're acting. It's really terrific.

Alison Stewart: My guest is actor Michael Urie. He plays the best friend of a therapist who's grieving the loss of his wife in the Apple TV Plus comedy series, Shrinking. He's joining me now to discuss the series and his career. Jimmy, played by Jason Segel, he's struggling with so much grief, sometimes in not positive ways. What choices did you make as an actor to talk about the feelings that Brian has about his friend dealing with grief? Does that make sense?

Michael Urie: Yes. Brian is-- He would never say this. He would never admit to this. He might not even know what it means, but he is a narcissist. When we meet Brian at the beginning of this series, he's mad at Jimmy because he had been ghosted. Yes, he's sympathetic, and yes, he feels bad, but he starts on his own problem, of course. That is the pattern with Brian. As we see any issue with Jimmy come up, Brian will make it about himself.

He doesn't know, he doesn't realize that that's what he's doing because he's a narcissist, and they don't always see themselves. They don't always realize that that's what's going on. It's very funny, actually, there was a moment in the show where someone calls Brian a narcissist. I remember reading it and being like, "No, he's not," and I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I'm too close. I've gotten too close to this character, I don't even realize that that's what he is," but it was actually really helpful as an actor to think of him in that way.

When Jimmy has a problem, Brian's not the one to help him usually. Occasionally Brian can help. What's so interesting about this season is they introduced the character of Lewis, played by Brett Goldstein, who is the man responsible for the death of Jimmy's wife, Tia, which was a crazy twist that this guy would end up somehow in their lives after this horrible tragedy. It ends up being Brian who is the conduit to bring Lewis into the fold of this chosen family.

It seems unlikely, but also inevitable that it be Brian because it can't really be anyone else. They're a little too close to it, and Brian, even though Tia was a very close friend of his, he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to intercept Lewis on the street and see that Lewis is in pain and see that Lewis needs someone, knows still that Jimmy and Alice and the entire group of friends who are grieving the loss of Tia, still need some kind of closure. Brian helps bridge that gap. It's this wonderful thing that you put this guy who seems to be no help at all, in the right place and the right time, and he can actually help.

Alison Stewart: Let's play a clip. Jimmy eventually finds out about Alice and Brian's interaction with Lewis, which leads to a huge monologue Brian gives, which he gave to Alice earlier, explaining how he met Lewis. This is from Shrinking.

Brian: I need a drink. Do you need a drink? Should we make martinis?

Alice: It's 11:00 AM and I'm 17, but sure.

Brian: Oh, okay. Okay. Diving in. Okay, here it goes. I have been talking to the young man who ran over your mom.

Alice: What?

Brian: Just listen. It gets better. It doesn't but listen. He came here to return your wallet.

Alice: He came here?

Brian: Yes.

Alice: When? To the house? Did you talk to him or did--

Brian: If you keep asking me stuff, I'm going to get more frazzled, so just let me spit it out.

Alice: Spit it out.

Brian: He came here, and I was like, "Get away from this family. Scram," and he was like, "Sorry," but he seemed wounded. More like, "Sorry," and I was like, "Are you okay?" He was like, "Yes," but I could tell he wasn't. I'm going through a super empathetic stage because Charlie and I decided that we're going to have a baby. If it's a boy, we're going to name him Peter Bernadette, and if it's a girl, obviously Bernadette Peters. Anyway, I went to the coffee shop where he works. Not to see him, just to ask if he was okay.

His boss was this Tony Soprano guy, but hotter. He'd rough you up, but also be a really good kisser. I wish I had a picture. I asked the boss about Lewis, and he says he's super depressed. He's a downer, but you can't fire a person for being a bummer. Cancel culture, am I right? Next thing I know, he calls Lewis over and we start talking. Alice, his life is bleak, Requiem for a Dream bleak. Not like the middle part, where they're all enjoying the heroin. The end, where they're all ass to ass and you realize that heroin's no fun at all.

Alison Stewart: We learned so much about Brian just in that monologue. So much about Brian just in that monologue.

Michael Urie: Can't believe you just heard me say ass to ass on public radio.

Alison Stewart: It's for the art. It's for the art, Michael. Tell me about rehearsing that monologue, because it does go to so many different places. It ends up in the right place, but there's tangents left and right.

Michael Urie: Yes, he's all over the map with this monologue. It was such a gift to get a monologue. A monologue on television, that's so rare unless you're doing a political speech or a summation or something in a courtroom. I was so grateful. They gave it to me ahead of time because they wanted me to be familiar with it and have time with it because it's a lot more dialogue than usual for somebody to have on a TV show. Tthey said, "You're going to repeat it again verbatim."

I knew, "Not only am I going to do it, I'm going to have to do it a month later." They wanted it to be verbatim, and they wanted it to be-- I thought of it as that-- you know when you have something hard to say to somebody or something complicated or something you're nervous about saying? At least I do. I practice it in the car or in the shower or when I'm alone and you go through it and you imagine what might happen when you start to tell the other person this complicated idea.

I looked at it like that. This is something that he has been saying in his head, practicing and preparing for the moment when inevitably he's going to have to say it, which helped because it meant that I was able to have a muscle memory and get it in my bones and think of it as a rehearsed speech that Brian had prepared because he knew eventually he was going to have to spill the beans. I also knew that I needed to know this thing backwards and forwards.

I spent a lot more time on this than I would normally on a script for TV, just because they're usually three-minute scenes and you have maybe half the lines and it's a lot easier to memorize. Also, the writing on Shrinking is sterling, and the better the writing is, the easier it is to remember. It's always been fairly easy to get the words in my head on this show, but I spent a lot more time on that. Also, I had to perfect my Brett Goldstein imitation. I had to figure out how he would say, "Sorry."

Then Lukita Maxwell, who's the incredible, brilliant actor who plays Alice, the day of, we spent a little time together, just the two of us in the trailer going through it. That was really, really helpful. Having her to look at made it really easy, but again, it was just the greatest gift to be given this speech that's funny and heartfelt and high octane. I'm so grateful for it. In fact, this is my dream come true, somebody on Instagram spliced them together so you can how they mirror each other.

Alison Stewart: We'll have more with Michael Urie after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Michael Urie. We're talking about his role as Brian on the Apple TV Plus comedy drama Shrinking. He's nominated for a Critics Choice Award. We just got this text that says, "Took my daughter to see her first Broadway show to Once Upon a Mattress. So fun and exciting. She stood up and cheered and laughed so much. Thank you for a great show, Michael."

Michael Urie: Oh, that's so nice.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask you about Once Upon a Mattress. We had Ana Gasteyer, who was sitting right there in real life, talking to us about the show. What was it like to play a prince on stage?

Michael Urie: Oh, my gosh. It was something I never thought would happen. I never thought I would get to be a prince in a Broadway musical who gets the girl? Wasn't on my bingo card. Then that girl got to be Sutton Foster. Never in a million years did I think I would be opposite her in a Broadway musical, but there it was, and it happened, and it was completely glorious. We just closed in Los Angeles on Sunday, and we had a beautiful run on Broadway, a beautiful run in LA.

We were the first musical for so many kids. That text is one of so, so, so many kids who saw their very first Broadway musical with Once Upon a Mattress. That is very special because you never forget your first show. Getting to work with Ana and Sutton and our amazing director, Lear deBessonet and the entire company and staff was just magical. It sounds cliche to say that a fairy tale show about a magical kingdom would end up being magical, but it really, really was.

The kids especially, because the show was so funny. It had a new script by Amy Sherman-Palladino, the same old beautiful songs from the original by Mary Rogers, and just this wonderful spirit, but it was the kids. It was the way that the show works, like a Looney Tunes cartoon or a Pixar movie, where the adults were laughing at one thing and the kids were laughing at something else. There were sections where just the kids would be laughing.

When we get to those sections, we would all lean in to the monitors or in the wings, lean in to see how many kids were there, how many kids were piping up. Especially on Broadway at the Hudson Theater, which is this great old theater where the acoustics are just like-- You can hear a pin drop. These kids would giggle and they'd hear that their voices carried throughout the entire theater. Sometimes they would get boldened and start giggling more or making sounds.

You know how kids can be once they realize they've got everyone's attention. It was just so wonderful. It was so special and so goofy. Carol Burnett came, by the way.

Alison Stewart: Oh, my gosh.

Michael Urie: Carol Burnett came to see us in the original. Princess Winifred came to see the show in Los Angeles last, I guess it was afternoon. Doing it with her there, of course, imagining what she's thinking, how she's responding, we realized even though we weren't trying to do Carol or trying to be the Carol Burnett Show, all of us, anybody that does comedy, especially in front of an audience, we have learned something from her and from her show, from the Carol Burnett Show.

We've all watched it. Anybody who does comedy and does stuff in front of an audience is aware of that relationship that she and her team, her company of actors, Tim Conway and Lyle Waggoner and all those people, Vicki Lawrence, they had this relationship with the audience that was so special. It was like a little tiny wire between them. At any point you knew they could break out laughing.

Alison Stewart: That was my next question. They used to break regularly. Did that happen to you?

Michael Urie: They used to break all the time. Yes, it would happen from time to time. We tried not to, but sometimes there were things that were very spontaneous night to night, that we didn't have planned. There was a lot of stuff that we did have planned. Obviously, for safety reasons, you have to plan certain things. Can't be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but there were moments, like a jazz solo where we could play and things might be different.

Sutton took a big bite out of a piece of soap at one moment that wasn't really soap. It was white chocolate, but it looked like soap, and the audience thought it was soap. It would always break up in different ways, and that was something that we'd have to navigate every night. I think that the audience knows they're watching something special. They know when it's for them only.

That kind of theater where we're making something funny and we are letting the chips fall where they fall, biting into a piece of soap or-- she and I had this moment where I would say, "You're pretty," and she'd say, "No, you're pretty." "No, you're pretty." "No, you're pretty," and it would devolve into a mess of sounds and physicality. We would not plan it. We never talked about it. We would just try something new every night, and the audience can tell. It's very special. That's the thing I'll miss the most, is that spontaneity connection with the audience.

Alison Stewart: People who are listening to this conversation know that we're via Zoom. You're from California. Understanding that there's huge fires in California, I wanted to ask you, is your home safe? Are you safe?

Michael Urie: I am safe because actually right now, I'm in the desert hot springs. I came here to give my body a break after doing lots of musicals, but LA looks-- It's very scary. My home in LA is currently safe, but these fires seem very out of control. Where my home is, when I look at the map, there's fires surrounding it, but I know the area is really, really big, so I don't know that anything will get to my home, but it's very scary. Of course, this is such a huge time for LA. It's award season.

LA is bustling right now, and it needs it because it's had such a hard few years between the pandemic and all the strikes. Los Angeles needs the award season because so much of its business and economy thrives on that part of the industry. Really hope that these fires get under control and it doesn't mess up the award season too much, but more importantly, I hope more people don't lose their homes and don't have to evacuate. I know a lot of people who have already had to evacuate, which is terrifying.

Alison Stewart: Good thoughts for Los Angeles. Since you brought up the award season, we just found out this morning that Shrinking was nominated for a SAG Award for Best Ensemble. What does that mean to you? You're nominated for a Critics Choice Award. You are, but I'm interested in what they both mean to you.

Michael Urie: The Critics Choice nomination is so incredible because I've never really been nominated for anything before, and among not only the other supporting actors in the comedy show I'm in, but all of the comedy shows, that's just so many people. There's one lead and everyone else is supporting. We're talking about so many actors. I feel very honored to be singled out among the cast of Shrinking and the cast of all the shows, and that the critics they're watching everything, and they're watching with such a keen eye. That is their job, to watch closely and with great discernment.

I really appreciate that they saw me. You never know if what you're doing is really registering. It seems like they picked up what I put down, which is really, really cool. Then the SAG Award, this is the greatest company of actors, these people.

Alison Stewart: Harrison Ford, Jessica Williams. Go on and on.

Michael Urie: Yes. [crosstalk] Luke Tennie, and Brett Goldstein and of course, Jason Segel and Ted McGinley. Devin Kawaoka, who plays my husband, is on the list, which is really wonderful. Wendie Malick, who plays Harrison's girlfriend, is on the list. Oh, I'm just so thrilled that we get to have that night together and that we get to share this, because the show really, it's one of those shows that every episode, I look forward to seeing who I get scenes with. Am I going to work with Harrison this week? Am I going to work with Jason this week? Am I going to work with Luke this week?

Any combination seems to create magic, which is a huge testament to this cast, but also the writers and to Brett Benner and Debbie Romano, the casting directors who brought us all together. It's really cool. To me, that means the show is really working. Like Here We Go, if the actors are peers, they said, "Yes, that's good acting." Then on the other hand, the critics said, "Yes, you're doing a good job." I'm feeling pretty lucky to be seen right now.

Alison Stewart: Michael Urie. You can see him in Shrinking. Thanks, Michael. It was nice talking to you.

Michael Urie: So nice talking to you. Thank you so much, Alison.