[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC, I'm Kousha Navidar. This past April I spoke to musician Jordan Rakei about previewing his yet-to-be-released album. Now back then we were talking over Zoom, but I like talking to Jordan so much that I decided to put him on the spot and tease a question to maybe get him to come to WNYC to perform. Let's listen to that clip. Do you have any plans to come to New York by any chance?

Jordan Rakei: Definitely, we're hoping to come for sure at some stage this year. It's all getting wrapped up but I'm really excited to finally be coming back to the States for the first time in about five years now, so yes super excited.

Kousha Navidar: Question on air, not to put pressure on you but when you do come to New York would you be willing to come to WNYC Studio Five, maybe do a live performance, we can hang out a little bit together, talk about your music. What do you think?

Jordan Rakei: Absolutely, absolutely yes. Any track you want me to play, any setup we'll do it for sure. Yes, I'll be grateful to.

Kousha Navidar: Well, I am happy to say that my persistence has paid off, because sitting across from me now at the piano is Jordan Rakei to play a special live performance from his album The Loop which is now out and available everywhere. Listeners I promise you he is here by choice. Hi Jordan, welcome to WNYC.

Jordan Rakei: Hey, how is it going?

Kousha Navidar: Good, so happy that we get to meet and I get to hear you play. Let's start right away with a performance. We're going to hear you play Learning. Anything you want to say about the song, you just want to dive in?

Jordan Rakei: Yes, this track is about me learning I guess about things of the world and imparting that knowledge onto my child. It's about being a parent. Here it is.

[MUSIC - Jordan Rakei: Learning]

Kousha Navidar: Beautiful. That was Jordan Rakei performing his song Learning. It's from his new album The Loop. Jordan is here to talk about the album and obviously play for us. Now that song Jordan you talk a lot of things. There's borders, meritocracy, corruption, war. Where did that come from for you?

Jordan Rakei: Well it's I was thinking about when people become parents there's a lot of people that feel firstly refuse to have kids or feel guilty about bringing children into the world. I thought about that concept a lot and about the harshness of the world that we have already and the problems that's going on. It just made me reflect on, as much as I'm trying to teach my child certain things, I need to educate myself on those things as well so that I can be a reflection of the well to my child and try and teach him in the best way possible. I was just exploring things that make me feel sad and hopefully, the world can change but yes I'm trying to reflect that to my child.

Kousha Navidar: What is the reflection that you want to be to your child?

Jordan Rakei: That's a good question. It's tricky because I don't want to blind them to what's going on and just be a pure optimist. At the same time, I want to filter-- I'm trying to harness that really child curiosity, and freedom, and happiness, and exploration that young children have. I think a lot about all children at some point in their lives get hit by life. I'm trying to in a way preserve that as long as possible, so be a barrier but also at the same time try and teach him about certain things.

Kousha Navidar: Does that sense of wanting to preserve the joy and the reflection, do you find sense you've had a child that shows up more in your music too, in your musicality, trying new things, something like that?

Jordan Rakei: Definitely. He was a massive influence and sense of me playing a bit more, playing with myself in the studio, exploring territories where with no judgment doing something really fun, doing something really emotional and vulnerable. It's like I had no more judgment anymore or ego in the creative process because you see this baby on the other side of the room, that's just present, they just they don't think anything that is laughing, or playing, or throwing things. I just wanted to go into the studio and explore like that child as well the inner child I guess.

Kousha Navidar: How does that show up in the album on the other side of it? Is there a place where you're like, "Oh I play a lot right here. That's something that influenced me."

Jordan Rakei: Definitely. There was a track we were in the studio called Trust actually where we were playing and we were jamming and we were all really laughing. It was all an improvised jam and we were just really laughing like kids in a high school rehearsal. Part of me was thinking oh is this too traditional? Is this too basic funk song?

Everyone was we're laughing, let's really lean on the feeling that we have right now rather than the analytical mindset of music making unless the child-like expression of just having fun playing anything really laughing, playing percussion, and having just a good time. That's what childhood reminds me of, of just freedom and running around.

Kousha Navidar: I wonder if discipline is also a part of it. When you were an early parent, did you find it harder just because of time to sit down and write?

Jordan Rakei: Definitely yes. I used to write in that little 30-minute nap that he would have in the middle of the day, I would put him down and quickly run over to my piano and try and write a chorus and then he wakes up on the baby monitor I'm like oh. It taught me a lot about efficiency and prioritizing my time whenever I had it in the studio to just try and pump something out as fast as I could.

Kousha Navidar: Speaking of prioritizing time I'm looking at the clock. I want to make sure that we get to our next song that you've got for us. You've got Flowers that you want to play. This is from your new album. Maybe a quick story of how you wrote the song and then go into it.

Jordan Rakei: This song Flowers it's about my wife and watching her be a mother just made me fall in love with her more, and remember all the stories we have in our relationship. Here we go with Flowers.

[MUSIC - Jordan Rakei: Flowers]

Kousha Navidar: That was Jordan Rakei. The album is The Loop. We have to go to a quick break, but when we come back we'll talk more about the album itself, what it's like touring and hearing it live. Then we'll have one more song for you. This is All Of It. Stay with us.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. We are lucky to be live in the studio with Jordan Rakei, the musician and vocalist. He's here. We got him to come over after we last talked to him in April for a live performance of his songs from his new album, The Loop, which is out now. Jordan, when you last spoke with us about a month before the album came out, cut to now, it's about a month after the album came out. I'm wondering, have you been taking in the music differently now that it's out in the world and the public can hear it?

Jordan Rakei: It's funny. On release day, there is a feeling that changes when now this little secret is everyone's possession, I guess. You lose ownership of it. It becomes like the world's album. At first it was yours. I still feel as proud and as happy as I was back then, which is usually rare when you release an album, you're onto the next thing. For me, I'm really proud of this record.

Kousha Navidar: It's amazing how personal, this is a pivotal moment in your life, almost a liminal moment from before you became a parent to now. Has the reaction of anyone out there listening really touched you in a way that you weren't expecting?

Jordan Rakei: Yes. What's been amazing is a lot of parents have messaged me and talked about, now they see their child and they hear this song or that song reminds me of their parents or something like that. I find that's really sweet. Because sometimes my music in the past has been groove-based or party-based. It's nice to hear these really long stories that people message me on Instagram, Twitter or email me and say, you were in the room when my wife gave birth. That sort of thing it's really special actually to be part of those moments in other people's lives.

Kousha Navidar: Were you expecting when you wanted to become a professional musician that this would be a part of the job?

Jordan Rakei: No. Sometimes even when I was making this album, I'd write a really personal vulnerable song and then I finish it and I'm like, "Oh no, this is going to have to come out now." I have to release it because it really is like an outpouring journal style of thing. Yes, I'm a novice when it comes to being an artist. I'm more of like a songwriter in my little den in my studio.

Kousha Navidar: How is it affecting you? Are you like, "Oh, I want to lean into this aspect of my artistry or anything else?"

Jordan Rakei: It's funny, the more vulnerable I've been later in my career, especially in this album, I actually feel more empowered to make it more like of a public thing. I love talking about my child or my own childhood and things I went through or my relationship with my parents or my brothers. It's funny because those sorts of things are really personal, but I like the public element of being an artist and talking about it. Because then people share with me their stories. When you open up, other people open up. I feel like it's a superpower to be able to connect with people like that. I feel very, very lucky.

Kousha Navidar: Let's talk about the name The Loop. During the break we mentioned your son. Can you say his name and then how you decided on the name for your son and the name for The Loop?

Jordan Rakei: Yes. Well, the name for The Loop is about the cycle of life really. We're all just children. We potentially have children if that's what you want to do. They all have children and we're just part of this big rolling reveal. I mentioned to you, choosing your child's name, it is like choosing an album name because it lives forever. You ruminate for ages and like, "Oh, is this the right thing?" It's a stressful time as a parent choosing an album name and a baby name. I had to do it at the same time basically.

[laughter]

It was like the hardest decisions of my life all in like a space of a few months.

Kousha Navidar: What was the name that you landed on for your son?

Jordan Rakei: Jude.

Kousha Navidar: How are you feeling about it on the back side?

Jordan Rakei: Yes, I feel good. I'm feeling no regrets.`

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: Good. The Loop, feeling good about that one too?

Jordan Rakei: Yes. Still feeling good about it.

Kousha Navidar: The Loop, you're able to play it live. What are you looking forward to now about playing this live on tour as compared to producing in studio?

Jordan Rakei: Well, I can't wait because a lot of the takes on the album are live takes with the band. It is meant to be on stage this record. Interacting with the crowd, having a very open arrangement vibe. Whereas sometimes in the past, you can build this perfect show and at specific moments things happen. I like going into this next tour feeling quite open in an improvised nature. Laving that openness for the band allows us to have fun every night. That childlike thing we're trying to rekindle. I'm excited to every night be a different sort of show and see where it takes us.

Kousha Navidar: When I listen to you, I hear this theme of openness, which is a word you just said. I find it very beautiful that when your family was growing, you named your son, and now your next album with people's reactions to it. It feels like your community connection is growing as well. Which is a really interesting parallel track there.

Jordan Rakei: It's true. I never really thought of it like that. I think when you-- being open and life's too short, I think because I've spent a lot of my teenage years and early 20s being quite guarded emotionally. I found when I started opening up even to my wife or my parents or my brothers or friends, the world started opening up as well. I'm trying to get that into my music and spread the good vibes.

Kousha Navidar: Another element that I love about your story is you've said in the past that films scores really inspired you on this album. We're movie nerds at All Of It. I'm wondering, do you have a favorite film score or one that stands out in your mind right now?

Jordan Rakei: There's an indie film called Under The Skin with Scarlet Hansen. It's amazing. It's an amazing movie. It's really abstract movie, but the film score, it's just the most unique string arrangement and evocative, scary. It's amazing. That's very inspiring in general. Just the way they arrange the strings. I think it's Mika Levy is the composer. The way she arranged strings on that movie is just haunting.

Kousha Navidar: Haunting. That's what you like about it. That sense that's it's haunting.

Jordan Rakei: It's very haunting and non-- what's the word? Non-traditional way of doing a classic string arrangement. It's the way it's been manipulated is very scary.

Kousha Navidar: If you were going to score a film, would you want to do a haunting score? Something in a Marvel movie that's big and boisterous and heroic? Have you ever thought about that?

Jordan Rakei: I have actually. I thought the biggest challenge would be to actually compose for a comedy because comedy's not really known for the musical side of it. It's very script-led. Usually, when there's comedic music, like on Curb Your Enthusiasm, it's a stereotypical trombone or tuba. I would be really interesting to try and attack the comedy scene with a different mindset. I don't know what that would sound like, but that would be a massive challenge to try and make something feel-

Kousha Navidar: Haunting.

[laughter]

Listen, stay with me here. A comedy with haunting music in it.

Jordan Rakei: Like the juxtaposition. That'd be cool.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: With a sad trombone in the background. I'm thinking about technology today because I'm really interested in AI. I know that you do a lot with talking about music education. With technology, it's possible to make a perfect-sounding music. Meaning you can use software to make every instrument sound exactly right. For you, I'm interested in finding out how technology could help you preserve that human element of it if you think that's the important use of technology right now.

Jordan Rakei: Well, that's a good question. Well, in the studio, actually, when we were recording and when we were tracking everything through all the older '60s, '70s equipment, we were really embracing, actually, the imperfection side of things to try and keep that human spirit alive because like you said, you can go through and edit every single instrument. You can mix the guitar and the piano so perfectly that they just sit perfectly and everything feels so clean.

I think what people really connect with in music, talking going back to the openness thing is hearing the human side of it, hearing those imperfections, hearing a guitar take where the person trips up a little bit, or hearing the vocal that's not perfectly in pitch, and then they feel right there in the room, or that sort of thing. Technology in the sense of recording technology, we can really use to create that imperfections, but in the sense of AI-- it's tricky because I've been a little bit scared as a musician in the world of AI where our jobs are on the line. I love also AI, the whole wave of AI. I'm in a weird middle ground where I'm trying to work out how I feel about it.

Kousha Navidar: Are you using AI in your work right now?

Jordan Rakei: No, I've never used it. I have lots of friends that have used it with soundscapes and then putting other stuff on top and it's like a collaborative piece of music, which I find really interesting, but I personally haven't used it yet.

Kousha Navidar: That element, what you're describing about people making mistakes during the session, and then you hear that it's about-- in live jazz performance, you're going to hear that. For you, do you preserve any mistakes in your final cut of a song?

Jordan Rakei: Yes. Well, we did a lot in this new album, and sometimes the old me would listen back and be like, "We need to change the second verse, I might miss my vocal." Actually, weirdly, everyone in the room, including me, whenever we heard a mistake, actually, we were like, "Oh, that's a nice human moment, let's keep that." It was a weird mindset. It was never any crazy train wrecks but a little bit of a slip on the groove or the guitarist missing the note.

We wanted the listener to feel like we're humans playing this thing. Humans make mistakes, I guess that's the macro analogy of it all is like-- sorry, metaphor. Is like we're not perfect.

Kousha Navidar: It sounds like another element of the reflection that you want to be for your son or for anything there. We were talking about that joy and that authenticity and finding it, but also imperfection sounds like it's part of it.

Jordan Rakei: Exactly, yes. It's even something I'm trying to teach. He's too young to be playing music, but when he's even banging on a drum or playing on his little ukulele, I'm not sitting there going, "Don't do it like that, you need to play--" I just want him to explore each instrument. That's what I was trying to do in the studio, just tinker around on the grand piano and see what came out.

Kousha Navidar: Speaking of tinkering on the grand piano, it's a perfect segue because I'm looking at the clock. I want to make sure we get to our last song. I'm going to say goodbye and then I'm going to let you have the last note on this interview. I've been speaking with Jordan Rakei. His new album is called The Loop and he's been in studio for a special live performance of a few songs. As we go out, we're going to finish with just one more. First, Jordan, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Jordan Rakei: Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice. We managed to make this work two months later. What a treat. This track is called Trust from my new album, The Loop. It's the fun track I was talking about in the studio where we're embracing that childlike energy. Here we go.

[MUSIC - Jordan Rakei: Trust]

[00:26:41] [END OF AUDIO]

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