[MUSIC- Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

David Furst: This is All Of It. I'm David Furst, in for Alison Stewart, who will be back on Monday. Yes, Alison is back in the host seat. Monday, July 1st. if you needed some good news today, well, here we are delivering it.

Coming up on today's show, we'll speak with Renato Poliofito. His new cookbook is called Dolci!: American Baking with an Italian Accent. He joins us to discuss and take your calls. We'll take your recommendations for the best things to do on Long Island in the summertime and hear what Newsday reporter and Long Island resident Beth Whitehouse thinks you might want to put on your Long Island bucket list. We'll hear what happened after the Civil War when some formerly enslaved people did, in fact, receive land from the federal government and then had it taken away. We'll be joined by two of the reporters behind the new podcast and radio documentary series, 40 Acres and A Lie. That's the plan. let’s get started.

[MUSIC- Michael Feinstein, Maynard Ferguson: New York New York]

New York, New York, a hell of a town

The Bronx is up and the battery's down

The people--

David Furst: Here on All Of It, we do an occasional series called Small Stakes, Big Opinions in which we argue over something that is deeply felt and not all that meaningful in the grand scheme of things. In previous conversations, we've debated topics like the best seltzer flavors, where upstate New York begins, and, of course, the elemental question, is a hot dog, a sandwich. Because we had a rather nerve-wracking little debate last night that could determine the future of the country, we thought we would have a less serious debate today, so here we go.

Earlier this week, one of our producers pointed out a Timeout New York article titled New York City ranked best City in the United States in a new study. The article's subtitle, We already knew and now you know as well. Yes, many of us smugly believe that we, as the musical Hamilton tells us;

[MUSIC - The Schuyler Sisters: The Greatest City in the World]

The Schuyler Sisters: Just happen to be in the greatest city in the world.

In the greatest city in the world.

David Furst: Yes, in the greatest city in the world, but even so, we do not have closed minds. The question before us today is, is New York in fact the greatest city in the world? If not, what is? Give us a call, 212-433-9692. Thats 212-433-WNYC. What do you think makes New York the greatest city in the world, or have you found another place that deserves that title? Tell us where and why. Here's that phone number again. It's 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that same number, 212-433-9692, or reach us on social media @AllOfItWNYC.

Joining us today to help us navigate this very important question is comedian and writer Josh Gondelman. He often accompanies us for these Small Stakes, Big Opinions conversations. Josh, I think the last time you were on the show was back in January for the cruise debate.

Josh Gondelman: Yes. Thank you for having me back.

David Furst: Welcome back.

Josh Gondelman: Thank you. I love a spirited, Small Stakes, Big Opinions debate on WNYC because we get a lot of New Yorkers, so they're intense opinions, but it's public radio, so they voice them very politely.

David Furst: Okay. It's the perfect combination. Again, if you want to throw your opinion into the mix here, 212-433-9692. Josh, before we begin, on your sub stack, you write, quote, "I'm a writer and comedian, and I drink iced coffee in any weather. I write a weekly newsletter of pep talks called That's Marvelous. On this day, filled with coverage of last night's presidential debate and Supreme Court decisions, there's a lot of stressful and serious news in all of our lives. Regardless of any of our partisan views, can you perhaps start us off with a pep talk?

Josh Gondelman: Sure. It's so funny to do a nonpartisan pep talk after last night, but I think I can manage. I think a lot of people watched last night's presidential debate and thought, "Yikes, are these the two most qualified people for this job?" When I say that, I don't mean that as an endorsement to Robert F. Kennedy Junior, the probable third person in this who's trying to wedge himself into this race.

I think, though, one thing that I always try to take heart in is that the president is obviously an important figure in global politics and for the residents of the United States, but electing the president isn't the only way to affect change. I think people who feel discouraged or demoralized by the Supreme Court or the presidency or even just like, how much money floods in and influences politics locally and nationally, I think that there's so much grassroots-type stuff people can do to make their lives and their community, the lives of people in their community better.

Whether it's labor organizing or whether it's mutual aid or protesting, I just think there are- and this is something, I think to really echo- I know Jon Stewart caught a little heat for saying things like this in his first Daily Show back on a Monday, but that, like, the presidential election isn't the be all and end all of the quality of people's lives and the quality of political discourse and investment. I think really investing in the people around you and finding the people who have been doing that work and aligning yourself with them and learning from those people is really wonderful.

My wife is really involved in a mutual aid diabetes network in Brooklyn. That kind of thing really makes a difference in people's lives. It helps ameliorate the kind of crushing forces of capitalism and the indifferent forces, at times, of national-level politics.

David Furst: Okay, so we have this pep talk kicking us off and helping to cleanse our palate right now. Now let's get to this question, this small-stakes debate. Let's focus on the stakes.

Josh Gondelman: Let's do it. I'm ready.

David Furst: We already have some calls coming through. If you want to join, 212-433-9692. Before we go to the phones, Josh, what's your take on this? Is New York City worthy of that title, Best city in the United States?

Josh Gondelman: I've lived in New York for 13 years as of next month. I do have a lot, a deep love of New York and consider myself a New Yorker. I am from the Boston suburbs at birth, so best city in the world is like, a tough thing to come out of my mouth. However, it is 69 degrees, as we just learned in Central Park just afternoon. The sun is shining. I walked outside my apartment walking my dog three days ago, and my neighbor handed me a cucumber she grew in her little backyard garden. I was like, "Why would I live anywhere else?" [laughter] We're having this discussion in, like, if New York is not the best city in the world today, it is never. Does that make sense?

David Furst: The weather is right. Everything is just so.

Josh Gondelman: Yes. We are having this discussion under ideal New York conditions. You ask even on Monday when people have to pay rent, and they're like, I'm moving to Boulder.

David Furst: Well, I think let's hear from some of our calls. If you want to join the discussion, 212-433-9692. I think Joy in Flushing might agree. Joy, welcome.

Joy: Well, good morning. I'm privileged to be on with you, and I want to thank you. I have to tell you, I'm a born and raised New Yorker. Empire State Building has always been magnetic north. I also have had a passion for travel my whole life, and I've been around the world a couple of times, a lot of wonderful places, but coming back to New York, there's nothing like it. It's special.

When you get to JFK and you hear that New York accent, it's like I'm home. The reason for it is there's something special about the location on the globe. The energy in New York is special, and the people, the crossroads of the world is here. We are a part of. that's the reason why New York is the top of the line.

David Furst: That's a great reason. The special energy in New York City.

Josh Gondelman: And the people. I think it's so beautiful to live around so many different overlapping cultures and communities and people that are really, again, invested in the long-term health of their communities and invested in each other. I think that's a myth that New Yorkers don't know or care about their neighbors. It's really beautiful to feel that energy amongst the people. You said that so beautifully and so in such a heartfelt way. Thank you.

David Furst: We're getting a variety of responses. If you would like to join, 212-433-9692 having a bit of a fun discussion. The Small Stakes, Big Opinions. Let's hear from Brian, joining us from Brooklyn. Welcome to All Of It.

Brian: Thank you. Yes, this is Brian.

David Furst: What's your vote?

Brian: My vote is for Paris, France. I love Paris. I love the language, French language. I love the history of Paris, the ambiance, being there, less tall buildings all around, more feeling like humans, bigger.

David Furst: If I could pull you into making a call on best city in America, what would you say about that, Brian?

Brian: Oh, best city in America.

David Furst: Yes, what do you think?

Brian: I grew up in Houston. Houston, Texas. I grew up there.

David Furst: Houston, Texas gets the vote for America, Paris for the world. Brian, thank you for joining us. Have you been to both of those locations?

Josh Gondelman: I have been to Houston, which I like very much. Again, it's so hard to compare. Right. Because if I go, well, Houston isn't as good as New York, that now sounds anti-Houston when I'm very pro-Houston. I have never been to Paris.

David Furst: Okay. You're a comedian. You got to play in all these cities.

Josh Gondelman: I do.

David Furst: You got to stay on the good side of a wide mix here.

Josh Gondelman: Absolutely. I'm not trying to have my New York radio moment. This could go global. People could go, "Oh, Josh hates Charlotte, North Carolina," which I never would say [chuckles].

David Furst: We're having a fun discussion. If you'd like to join, 212-433-9692. If you have a serious thought that you would like to add into this mix, let's hear from Jeff in Inwood calling us to put his two cents in. Jeff, welcome to All Of It.

Jeff: Thank you. Thank you for taking my call. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't think New York is the greatest city in the world. New York has close to 100,000 people that are homeless. It has a serious mental illness crisis going on. There are a lot of people walking around with mental illness. People are getting pushed into the subway, in front of subway cars. The city is really filthy. There's garbage everywhere. People just throw garbage everywhere.

The infrastructure of New York City, the transit system, doesn't even compare at all to what London has or Paris has. While I really appreciate living in New York City and the diversity of the city and people living shoulder to shoulder, living side by side with each other, where in other countries they might be killing each other, I definitely do not think New York is the greatest city in the world. We got a lot of problems in the city that we need to be working on.

David Furst: Celebrate the good, but let's not get carried away and ignore a lot of other things going on.

Jeff: The reality is a lot of major cities have these types of problems. It's not just New York.

David Furst: Well, Josh, what about that? When you've traveled to other cities around the country and around the world, what are some of the things that make you say, "Hmm, New York could learn a thing or two about this"?

Josh Gondelman: It does feel like we had the Supreme Court today saying it can be criminalized to sleep outside. This is an America problem. I think we, as a country, need to do better, taking care of our vulnerable populations, unhoused people, people living with mental illness. I think that's definitely a good point, and we can do better. I think there are probably other places that do better.

You go to Toronto and you're like, "Oh, it looks like New York, except someone picked up the trash." [chuckles] I do appreciate that. I think that the New York City MTA is kind of a marvel that it connects so many people every day, but it would be nice for the marvel to run more on time. It's a marvel to get all around the city, even 20 minutes late. I don't think it's too much ask for a miracle to be slightly more miraculous.

David Furst: Well, we're getting a lot of calls and texts right now. One text, "I have to throw my hat in the ring for, my hometown of Chicago. Just got back to New York from a long weekend there. I spent every day on or in Lake Michigan. Plus my friend's rent there is $450 a month."

Josh Gondelman: Wow. That's unbelievable. One thing that I love about Chicago, too, is I was there two winters ago, and Chicago citizens in the winter go out. They are not cowed by the winter. They embrace it, and they are defiant of it. I think that is such a wonderful quality that they're like, "We spit in the face of God and science to go out and have a good time."

David Furst: Let's hear from another call, 212-433-9692. Janice calling from Barnegat, New Jersey. Welcome.

Janice: Hi, and thank you for taking my call. I'm glad you were just talking about Chicago. We lived there for seven years and came back here because it was, to us, it was really terrible compared to New York, where you hear so many different languages spoken as you're walking down the street. I worked at the UN. I traveled all over the world, Asia, lots of major cities in the United States, too. New York is the best. It is the best because it's so inclusive.

Believe it or not, Chicago is a very segregated city. I feel embarrassed to say this. I guess people don't really talk about it, but we lived for months and never saw any dark-skinned people because they told us where we had to go to find them. When I asked people, they looked at me like, what's wrong with you? I'm like, where are all the Black people? They're like, "Ah," then they sort of moved away from me. I find that in Chicago, it was really dirty if you're walking down the street. One time I got hit in the face with a plastic bag. It's second city.

David Furst: Okay?

Janice: They have an attitude to come from here.

David Furst: You're leaning into the second city there. Okay, Janice, we got two very different perspectives on Chicago.

Josh Gondelman: See, this is what I love about these discussions, because we have someone going, Chicago is the greatest city in the world, and then someone else coming on to really take some shots at Chicago, really land some body blows. I think that's what we're here to do. I think that's beautiful.

David Furst: You know, Josh, what about this whole, if you're not from here, you can't complain about it, but if you are from here, you can have at it.

Josh Gondelman: I do feel like there's a certain amount of native New Yorker privilege that you get too and perspective that you get if you've grown up here that I don't claim to own. However, I do think "you can't complain about it," that that sentence is antisemitism, to say to a Jewish person. Complaining is part of life, and it's a wonderful part of life, and it's an important part of life. You can always complain, but I think the validity and the weight of complaints has to be weighted specifically given the context.

David Furst: You can always complain, and you can do that right here on All Of It, or you could jump in and say why you do think New York City is the greatest city in the world. We will continue this discussion in just a moment. Here's that phone number once again, 212-433-9692. You're listening to All Of It on WNYC.

[music]

You're listening to All Of It here on WNYC. We are doing our occasional series, Small Stakes, Big Opinions. The question before us today is New York, in fact, the greatest city in the world. If not, what is? Give us a call, 212 433-9692. We have a text here, Josh, someone saying, "Just want to say how much I appreciate Josh today."

Josh Gondelman: Thank you.

David Furst: "Truly needing his positive energy, so thank you."

Josh Gondelman: I appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks so much.

David Furst: Now you do a stand-up where you talk about being, I hope I'm remembering this right, an optimist in New York City.

Josh Gondelman: Yes, which is not cool here. People don't lie that energy.

David Furst: How does that go over?

Josh Gondelman: Everybody, I think-- not everybody, but there's so much of New York City that loves a cynic. There's just somebody going, like, "We're all born just to die." I do think there is a lot of optimism here, but culturally, there's kind of apathy has always been cool, right? Black leather jacket, just ready for the world to crumble.

There is a lot of beautiful, whether it's creating art. You have to be so optimistic to want to work on Broadway. You know what I mean? The odds are so stacked against you, and people keep moving here and thriving and making beautiful art. I do think New York has this duality of really this beautiful, "the world can be a better place," and then the kind of crushing like, "but should it? It's better bad."

David Furst: Well, let's hear about some other opinions. We have a lot of calls coming through right now. 212433 9692. Marilyn calling from Chelsea. Welcome to All Of It.

Marilyn: Thank you for taking my call. Like a previous call, I work for the UN, and my vote is for New York for a very UN reason. The culinary adventures you can have in this city with cuisines from all over the world. I and a group of friends have been going on culinary adventures for 20 years now. Every few weeks, we pick a restaurant that's from a cuisine we're not necessarily that familiar with yet. We've been on the most amazing adventures these past two decades.

David Furst: Josh, what about the food?

Josh Gondelman: I mean, that's great. I love it. I think it's such a wonderful side effect of having so many cultures so close together is that you get to enjoy their foods. It's so fun to go to a neighborhood and go like, oh, I get to have really authentic Indian cuisine or Chinese cuisine or Italian all within a few miles of each other. If you saw my physique, you would be like, yes, that guy has the standing to make that statement.

David Furst: Let's hear from Mira in Brooklyn. Mira, do I have it right? You're nine years old.

Mira: Yes.

David Furst: Thank you for joining us on All Of It. Did you want to voice your opinion?

Mira: Definitely. My vote is for New York City because it has so much character. Even if you're stuck on the BQE for an hour, you can still make friends, even when it's a bunch of people screaming at you at the top of their lungs.

David Furst: [laughs] Even in those moments, you can find the positive Mira?

Mira: Yes.

David Furst: Okay, Josh, what about that?

Josh Gondelman: I think that's such a wonderful distillation of the New York City attitude for someone so young to be so invested in the city, but also to go like, I've had nine years of experience on this planet, and I will say definitively, New York is the best. I think that is an attitude that carries as people get older. I'm again, from the Boston area, and I feel like I grew up around people that are like, "I've never left and this is the best place, so why would I go anywhere?" It's a very northeast thing and a very New York thing, too.

David Furst: Josh, I realize even you having you on to have this discussion about New York City could cause problems for you when you-- [laughs]

Josh Gondelman: It's true. I'm going to go home and just get jumped when I get off the Amtrak at South Station.

David Furst: Well, Mira, thank you so much for joining us today. Let's also hear from Peter in Sayosset. You have a. Something you'd like to add to the discussion?

Peter: Oh, yes. Yes. I was listening to the person who talked about how she knew that she had arrived in New York from wherever. I know that I'm in New York when I cross over the frog's neck or the Whitestone Bridge and traffic stops dead.

David Furst: [laughs] What is your feeling at that moment? Is it, "Ah, I'm home"?

Peter: It's oy gevalt.

[laughter]

David Furst: Josh.

Josh Gondelman: It's overwhelming, right? Frank Sinatra wrote the song New York, New York, about moving from New Jersey. He was like, "start spreading the news. I'm leaving today." It's like, you're moving four miles, Frank. There is something about it that makes people stand still and take notice, whether that's traffic or anything else.

David Furst: Yes, yes, absolutely right. I love that four miles away, but in a completely different experience.

Josh Gondelman: I think that's really something. You cross the bridge and there's horrible traffic, and you go, "This is where people want to be."

David Furst: Let's hear from Debbie in Branchfield, New Jersey. Welcome to All Of It. What's your vote?

Debbie: Hi. It's actually Branchville, New Jersey.

David Furst: Sorry. Branchville. Sorry.

Debbie: [laughs] I've lived in both Manhattan and London, and I have to say I much prefer London. I lived in New York when I used to, as I like to say, when I was young and stupid, because I was paying, like, $200, which back then was a lot of money for a studio apartment on the Upper East side, which, of course, now would be about $2,000. In order to live there, it was even then, so expensive.

Now, London, I know, is going through a financial crisis right now, but my memory of London, just the minute you're there, the history, the cleanliness, the international feel of it being surrounded by buildings that take you back to another time. Also, when you have that wonderful cosmopolitan surrounding, you can also, within minutes, on the London tube, which is so much cleaner and nicer to use than the New York subway system, sorry, but that's true. You can be in view of sheep grazing on a beautiful countryside. You have the best of both worlds. You have the city, you have the theater, you have the incredible history and feeling of the place, but you also have the beauty of the countryside all around you.

I was just in Brooklyn last Sunday, and to be honest, I was very disappointed. I think I saw one tree growing in Brooklyn, but even though I--

Josh Gondelman: That's the one from the book.

Debbie: I have a book out that was influenced by Mel Brooks, and it's to be read with a Brooklyn accent. I love the Brooklyn people, and I love New York people in general, but the city itself, it's just gotten so dirty and so kind of gray and threatening that I just don't enjoy it as much.

David Furst: Well, what about that? What about judging the city also based on its surroundings and its transit system?

Josh Gondelman: I think there is a lot of great surrounding. It's just that the people here don't leave very often. There's a beach within the city. You can leave and see nature. You can see nature. You go up as far as the cloisters or Central Park or Prospect Park. There's beautiful parks all over the city. I will say I have been here long enough that it doesn't occur to me that there wouldn't be trash on the ground, [chuckles] where I just see trash and it just scans as like, that's part of the ground now.

David Furst: Oh, my goodness. We have so many opinions coming in fast and furious right now. Let's try to get to a few more. 212-433-9692. Let's hear from Richard in Ithaca, New York. Welcome to All Of It.

Richard: Hey, how's it going?

David Furst: Great. What's your vote?

Richard: Yes, my vote is Albany, New York. Really quickly, why. As a sales rep, I travel up and down the eastern seaboard. I visit a ton of cities. I lived in Albany for a good 12 years or so, and I love it because it's a central location. I can get down to New York City, which is an awesome city and absolutely love it, quick by train, two hours. I could get out to Boston in a three-hour quick trip. I could get to Montreal in three hours, and I could get home to my parents in Rochester, New York. My vote is for Albany. Plus all the outdoor stuff you can do is phenomenal as well.

David Furst: Okay, we have a vote for Albany. Let's also hear from Joe joining us from Staten Island. Hello.

Joe: Hello. Yes, I'm joining you from technical New York. You know, if you get trouble, the NYTD shows up.

Josh Gondelman: Say it was.

Joe: How you know it's New York.

Josh Gondelman: Say it with your chest. You're from New York. You're in New York.

Joe: Thank you. That's right. No, I grew up in Manhattan. That's always my caveat. The thing is, New York is a self-promoting city. All across the world, all across the country, everybody has an idea of New York, whether they're getting it from the media, from art, from magazines, and they come here. They want to come here, and they may come here misguided.

They may be like, "Oh, geez, I thought there'd be a restaurant with- where I can get my nails done, have cupcakes, and also, some kind of new pastry. They're like, "Oh, there isn't one. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to make it. I'm going to make that." People come here are the real New Yorkers, not these contrarians who come here to complain about it, but the ones who come here and they're like, hey, it didn't really fit exactly, but I'm going to make New York into what I think New York should be, what I always thought it should be." That's how New York keeps changing, and that's why it's always been the best.

I just want to say one thing. I've been all over the country and the world, and you go all over the country and you'll find bars. Here in the city, rather, you'll find bars. Oh, this is a Steelers bar. Oh, this is a Packers bar. Oh, this is a Houston Astros bar. Go to another town somewhere else and try to find a Mets bar. There isn't one.

[laughter]

David Furst: All right. Well, what about that? That's a great notion, the "don't complain about it, get involved."

Josh Gondelman: That's so wonderful. That's such a wonderful ethos to have, is to, I would say, complain and get involved. Again, I'm here in defense of complaints. I'm also just blown away by such a full-throated defense of Albany. I love-- Gosh, what a joy to hear someone really go to the mat for the capital city of New York State. I will just voice a slightly contrarian opinion that if your favorite thing about a city is how many better cities that you can get to from it, I do think that is a slight caveat.

David Furst: Well, come on. Albany was the center of the universe earlier this year with the NCAA Women's Tournament-

Josh Gondelman: That's true.

David Furst: -being held there. Certainly, Albany has been getting a lot of attention this year. Let's hear from Christine on the Upper East Side. Thanks for joining us here on All Of It.

Christine: Hello. Hi. Everybody can hear me?

David Furst: Yes, great.

Christine: Okay, so I'm going to vote definitely New York. I've been here for 18 years, but I will put in a close tie with Taipei, Taiwan. Taiwan has a democracy rating higher than America's. Because of that, it's been a drawing point for people all over Asia. You actually have a very large diversity, deep diversity of people from all over Asia. China is actually made up of a ton of sub-ethnic cuisine and cultures. They're all represented in Taiwan. Then they've all fused together, the cultures. Taipei itself is the best of what Taiwan has to offer.

They also are the first nation in Asia to recognize same-sex marriage. It is very progressive, very democratic, very supportive of all diversity, and really a wonderful place to live. The people are just warm and welcoming. A lot of things are in English now, so it's very easy to get around.

David Furst: That's great. Thank you for sharing that. Let's hear from Laurie in Long Island City. Do you have an opinion?

Laurie: Yes, I vote for New York City, of course. [laughter] I once heard that New Yorkers can be born anywhere. They just have to find their way home. I first found my way home when my parents brought me on a trip here from Little Rock, Arkansas, when I was 13 years old. I made a plan then that I was someday going to move to New York. I moved to New York when I was 25. I loved it. I loved it.

I had lots of friends who started to complain about it and get bitter about it. I said, "That's not going to be me. I'm going to leave New York while I still love it." It's magical. It's wonderful. I got married, and I left to raise children, and I thought, "That's the dumbest idea ever. Why would you leave someplace that you love?" After we raised, my husband, who's from California, agreed with me New York was the best. we moved back here 10 years ago. We sold the house, the three cars, the grand piano, all the furniture. We now live in a tiny apartment in Long Island City and could not be happy.

David Furst: Well, welcome back, and thank you very much for that comment. We're getting so many that we won't be able to get to. Right now, I'm seeing texts about New Orleans and a lot more about New York City. Someone saying, yes, there is a Mets bar in Chicago.

Josh Gondelman: I think that sounds like a trap to me.

David Furst: That's good to see, too. Josh, just to wrap up, where's your next comedy show? Will you kiss up to that crowd and tell them that their city is the greatest in the world?

Josh Gondelman: I'm off the road. I've been touring a ton the last couple of years, so my next show is 10:00 p.m. on Saturday, tomorrow night at Union Hall in Brooklyn. I'm co-hosting a show with my friend Alison Libby. Yes, I will certainly pander to that crowd until I don't respect them for enjoying the pandering, at which point I will turn on them and yell at them for wanting to be pandered too.

David Furst: I am there for the turning. That is fantastic. Josh Gondelman, comedian Josh Gondelman, thank you so much for joining us for this edition of Small Stakes, Big Opinions.

Josh Gondelman: Thank you for having me. Always such a pleasure.

 

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