[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, and I'm excited to say that I'm sitting across the table right now from Mike Campbell. He's the lead guitarist and vocalist for The Dirty Knobs, and of course, you also know him as the founding member and lead guitarist and co-writer of Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers. Mike Campbell and The Dirty Knobs have a new album. It's out this Friday. It's called Vagabonds, Virgins & Misfits. Let's listen to the lead single from the album. This is Dare to Dream Features Graham Nash of the Hollies and Crosby, Stills & Nash. Let's listen.

[MUSIC - Mike Campbell & The Dirty Knobs: Dare To Dream]

Kousha Navidar: Vagabonds, Virgins & Misfits is out this Friday, and Mike Campbell is with me right now across the table. Hey, Mike, welcome to WNYC.

Mike Campbell: Thank you. Hello.

Kousha Navidar: You released the song Dare to Dream as a single in May. We just heard it in the intro. It features Graham Nash on the vocals. He's of course, of the Hollies and Crosby, Stills & Nash fame. What's the story behind getting him on this album?

Mike Campbell: I was doing an interview with him. By the way, I just heard it on my headphones just now and he sounds so good. I'm a big Hollies fan. Anyway, I was doing an interview with Graham, and I got up the courage to ask him. I didn't think he would, but he was so nice. "Would you sing on one of our tracks?" He said, "Sure." I sent it to him and he sent it back to me twice as good. I'm so happy to have that Hollies sound on my record.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. This was on a show that you do actually on SiriusXM, is that right?

Mike Campbell: Yes, called The Breakdown. It's an interview show.

Kousha Navidar: How do you like doing interview shows?

Mike Campbell: I didn't want to do it at first, but I've gotten where I like the way we do it. It's just a conversation kind of thing. I have an outline, but mostly we just talk music and people that I like or that knew Tom. Graham was one of them.

Kousha Navidar: When Graham was on, did you already have a sense that you were hoping that he would join you for this song?

Mike Campbell: Way in the back of my mind, I never dreamed that it would be possible, but he was so personable. I don't know if you've met him or not, he's such a personable sweet guy. I got my courage up by the end of the interview and I asked him, kind of sheepishly, "Would you?" He'd go, "Yes, man." He made it better. I'm so proud of that.

Kousha Navidar: What do you admire about his vocal chops?

Mike Campbell: It's the sound. The Hollies. I grew up in the '60s. All that music, the Hollies, The Kinks, The Beatles, The Stones, The Animals, but The Hollies, I always just loved that vocal chorus blend. Graham was the high voice, and later on he was the high voice in Crosby, Stills & Nash. His sound of his voice is just so soothing to me. On this song of mine, he stacked the harmonies himself as if the Hollies were doing the all the parts. He knows where all those notes are. He knows how to make it sound rich. He came up with a little background part. I just love the sound he makes.

Kousha Navidar: You said on Instagram that you wrote the song, Dare to Dream, about 15 to 20 years ago.

Mike Campbell: That's true.

Kousha Navidar: What did you hear in the song when you revisited it that made you want to include it on this album?

Mike Campbell: First of all, I didn't remember it. My wife talked me to listen to the old tapes and it popped up, and after a second I go, "Oh yes." I was listening to it, and it was back when I was first beginning to write songs with lyrics and all, and I'm thinking, "This isn't bad." I thought it sucked at the time. In retrospect, I thought, "This is a strong song. It's very hopeful and maybe embarrassingly hopeful in the world we live in today." I thought for a second, "You know what, the world needs a little hope and things are going to be okay." I pulled it out and stuck it on the album and it's a high point.

Kousha Navidar: Do you feel like hope is something that you find yourself writing about a lot in your songs?

Mike Campbell: Yes. That's a good observation. Hope and redemption is a running theme through a lot of Heartbreaker songs. Even the losers get lucky sometimes, the waiting is the hardest part, don't have to live like a refugee. Also if you think of The Beatles songs, they're always talking about peace or love, most of them. I like dark-themed songs, but I also like songs that leave you feeling good at the end. Like, "It's all going to work out." On this album, I found myself-- that's Vagabonds & Misfits, all of the characters in the songs, why? I don't know, but I gravitate toward people that are struggling in some situation and they're trying to get through it to hope at the end. That's the kind of songs I like, that take you on a journey and leave you feeling good.

Kousha Navidar: Totally. That's good storytelling, good music, good everything, is that journey. That's what it's all about. I think that that idea that you're talking about of the struggle of going back and forth, and Dare to dream, you hear it for sure. On Instagram you said that the chords in the verse we hear on Dare to Dream are a bit mysterious, I think was the word that you used, right? You want to talk about that a little bit?

Mike Campbell: Yes, that's true. Songs are typically in a major key or a minor key, or some songs will do both within one song. For some reason, the song was built from the guitar chords which are in between major and minor. It doesn't really define it until the chorus, "These are--" it goes major, which is usually the happy key. The verses are in an interesting chord progression that's not typical, that is mysterious and suspense feeling. It worked for the song really well.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Those chords, they're neither major nor minor or they flip back and forth?

Mike Campbell: If you want to know, technically the first chord is a B-flat major 6, which is basically a chord with suspended notes within it going into an A7. It's leading into a D-minor, it would be in that key. It simulates that you're in that key until the chorus, and it's a surprise where it goes to F, which is the happy part.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, the F-major specifically.

Mike Campbell: F-major, yes.

Kousha Navidar: F-major, yes.

Mike Campbell: Then it goes back to the B-flat, mysterious major seventh. I don't even know what that chord is, but it's something I hit on the guitar and it made a-- "Oh, that's an interesting suspension."

Kousha Navidar: It's interesting because I'm a music nerd. Everybody listening might not be, so thank you for indulging us down this path-

Mike Campbell: Cool.

Kousha Navidar: -of Kousha and Mike talk chord theory, but I am wondering, as a songwriter and such a successful one, when you're writing songs, how much are you thinking about music theory when you're trying to make decisions about where to go next? Or is it something where you're feeling your way through and then you can explain it with music theory on the backend.

Mike Campbell: More the second. I don't get hung up in theory when I'm trying to write a song. Usually it comes to you. It's a muse. It's boom, here's this thing. It's not like I manifested it or was looking for some mathematical chord sequence. It just appears and you take it and then you sit back later and you go, "Well, this is a good idea," but musically, it needs to go to this place to make sense in a technical sense. Then you might do a little analytical trimming with the thing, but mostly it's just freeform stream of consciousness inspiration.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking to Mike Campbell who's in studio right now. He's the guitar player, the vocalist and leader of the band, The Dirty Knobs. He was also lead guitarist and co-writer of Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers. The Dirty Knobs are releasing a new album. It's called Vagabonds, Virgins & Misfits on Friday. He's here in studio for a preview and a listening party. I'd love to get to another song. There's so many songs on this album, and The Dirty Knobs discography as a whole, it just rocks. They make you move. I'm thinking of the song, So Alive, on this album. Before we listen to it, I'm wondering if you can crack this nut, what's the secret to making music that makes people want to get up and rock out?

Mike Campbell: That's a great observation. Songs come from all different places and that particular song was just a burst of adrenaline. It had a riff. [unintelligible 00:08:48] I was just playing with the guitar. To be honest, I had been listening to a lot of Ramones that week.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, interesting.

Mike Campbell: It'd be nice to have something with that energy in it, and that was the impetus for the idea. The chords just let it into the thing. I thought, "Well, how does this make me feel? It makes me feel so alive." I literally wrote it in three minutes. The band came in, I showed it to them, we played it once, done. Solo live on the floor, so it's real kinetic.

Kousha Navidar: Wow, did it in one.

Mike Campbell: It's one of those, yes.

Kousha Navidar: Mike Campbell, wow. Thanks to the Ramones. Let's listen to So Alive. Here's a little bit of it.

[MUSIC - Mike Campbell & The Dirty Knobs: So Alive]

Kousha Navidar: That is So Alive. Mike, while the music is rocking and upbeat, the lyrics are a bit darker. The song starts with you singing, "You can't find your home and you're all alone and you can't remember your own name. You feel sad inside. Mama lied when she told you everything would be okay." Why can these more unsettling lyrics still work for that upbeat song?

Mike Campbell: I think it's drama. Once again, we were talking before about darkness and then light, lift up in the chorus is a perfect example. The guy in the song is a misfit, to borrow word, and his steppings aren't going right. His mama lied to him. He thought things were going to be okay and his life is all messed up, but when he sees her, he feels so alive. That's what a good song, a lot of them can do. They can create mystery and drama like, "Oh, no, what's wrong? This is going to go bad?" Then, "Oh, no, it's okay."

Kousha Navidar: What's a pitfall that you feel you like fall into when you're writing songs?

Mike Campbell: It's funny because I was talking to my wife about this and I don't know, except till I look back on it, a lot of my characters of my songs tend to stir out-- a lot of them are damaged women that are in a bad situation, either drugs or with a wrong man, or something bad in their life, a struggle they're trying to get out and get to a better place. I don't know, I think it's just a very easy character to get into. Tom used to do this a lot too. Even the Losers Get Lucky Sometimes, she's a woman in love, but it's not me. I tend to just fall into that, "This is a bad situation. She needs help. How can I help her?"

My wife says, "Why are you always writing about women that need help?" I don't know, it's just a good drama. It's a good storyline.

Kousha Navidar: Is this something that you want to branch out from in the future you're thinking about?

Mike Campbell: I'm not even thinking about it. That's a job for a therapist if I ever get one.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: Fair enough.

Mike Campbell: The best thing to do is, this is on reflection that I would notice this, but in the moment, you just go with it. You don't think about it too much or you'll screw it up.

Kousha Navidar: Let's talk about the rest of The Dirty Knobs. Introduce them to us.

Mike Campbell: Sure.

Kousha Navidar: What do they bring to the band? What sound?

Mike Campbell: Oh, they bring a lot. I love this band, and I'm so lucky after the band that I had before, which was together for nearly 50 years, great band, the Heartbreakers and Tom. Now that that's passed on, I have this band, which is my band. It's a four-piece, simple, little band. I have great musicians, who we're all in tune with each other and they're good followers in the direction I want to go. It's very copacetic. There's no egos.

The guitar player, the most recent edition to The Dirty Knobs, his name is Chris Holt. He's from Texas. We call him Sidewinder. He's multi-talented harmonist. He brings keyboards to the band. He plays some piano and organ on the new album, so there's not just guitars. His voice is great. He's a great lead guitar player. I could just look at him and say, "Hey, when it gets here, do something," and he'll always surprise me.

Bass player, Lance Morrison, we call him Crawdaddy. He comes from Don Henley's solo band back in the day. He just showed up one day and he's been in the band ever since. He's essential to The Dirty Knobs. He actually has an album out called Einstein's Brain. He is the Einstein of the band. He's the brainiac who always, "Oh, that's not right. You're doing the wrong chord there." He's our go-to scientist. I'm really fortunate on the drums now to have Steve Ferrone, The Heartbreakers' drummer for a couple of decades or more. He wanted his seat back in The Dirty Knobs, so he's on the move now and it's a great band.

Kousha Navidar: Let's listen to another song that you guys put together, the song, Shake these Blues. It's rocking. What do you remember about how you wrote that song?

Mike Campbell: Shake these Blues, I was thinking about something. I like The Yardbirds a lot, and I wanted something that had a driving rhythm like them, and then a double time in the end for the guitar to go crazy, or in the middle, a tempo shift. That was the idea. It was mostly a musical thought and the words were an afterthought. Simple like, "Shake this trouble off of me, let me shake these blues away." Another one of them things.

Kousha Navidar: The music came for you before the lyrics of this song?

Mike Campbell: Music first, yes.

Kousha Navidar: Is that generally for you?

Mike Campbell: Generally, yes. Lately, I'm doing it both ways, but for decades, it was always music with me first and the words later.

Kousha Navidar: Let's listen to a little bit of it. Here's Shake these Blues.

[MUSIC - Mike Campbell & The Dirty Knobs: Shake these Blues]

Kousha Navidar: That was Shake these Blues. We're talking to Mike Campbell, the guitar player, the vocalist leader of the band, The Dirty Knobs. The album, Vagabonds Virgins & Misfits, is out on Friday. In studio right now talking to us and doing a little preview of the album. Something we couldn't get to in that song is the shredding solo that you have. I love shredding solos. I'm wondering, is there something that you feel is easy to overlook when it comes to doing a solo, especially on the guitar, making it overly complicated or something else? What do you think?

Mike Campbell: I think, to my ears, a lot of guitarists like to show off in their solos, their technical virtuosity. I've never thought of it that way. I've always inspired by George Harrison, Keith Richards, the solo should serve a song. I try to when I have a solo. Shake these Blues is different because it's just go for it. It is kind of a shredder. I don't usually play like that, but it is live on the floor and all those solos are during the take. It's like, "Go for it now. I'm not going to overdub it later." That's the type of song where you can get out on the edge of the surfboard and crash into the wave. That's the excitement of it.

Once again, there's two solos. The middle one, I'm on the 12th string, which keeps me from getting too crazy. Then the second solo is Chris Holt, Sidewinder. He plays [unintelligible 00:27:06] and he goes into the full-on blues. The very end of it, we bring in a slide guitar with a little melody to take it down. That solo for Chris was great because I just said, we hadn't played it, "When you get there, do something." He's like, "Oh." He played this great solo in there. That's what I love about him.

Kousha Navidar: We're talking about guitars now. I'm wondering how many guitars do you think you own?

Mike Campbell: I have one.

Kousha Navidar: You have one guitar.?

Mike Campbell: No, one million.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: I was like, "That is not what I was expecting."

Mike Campbell: No, I'm a guitar collector. I had to sell it. I sold a lot of them a couple of years ago to clear out my area, but I've got too many. They're all choice pieces of art. I love them all and I used them all in my records in live. Maybe close to around 100, give or take a few. I cherish them.

Kousha Navidar: You've got a lot of fun features on the album, including the legendary Lucinda Williams for the song Hell or High Water. Let's listen to a little bit right now. I'm going to ask you about it after it. We're going to play it towards the middle of the song to hear some of Lucinda. Here it is.

[MUSIC - Mike Campbell Ft. Lucinda Williams: Hell or High Water]

Kousha Navidar: That was Hell or High Water. Then you're hearing Lucinda Williams on there. What do you admire about her sound?

Mike Campbell: It's her soul and her voice. She's a sweetheart, but there's a tender vulnerability and ache kind of tone in her feeling, the way she sings. She's really lived what she's singing about and she brought that to the song in such a beautiful way. I owe her a lot for that.

Kousha Navidar: I'm looking at the clock. I'd love to get to one more song-

Mike Campbell: Sure. Sure.

Kousha Navidar: -before we let you go. You're a part of a new album coming out on June 21st called Petty Country: A Country Music Celebration of Tom Petty. You're on this album with Margo Price singing Ways to Be Wicked which you co-wrote. That single is out now. I'm wondering just about country music. How did country music influence the way you and Tom wrote music for The Heartbreakers?

Mike Campbell: It's a good question. It's in our DNA. We grew up in Florida, the deep south, and growing up, we heard a lot of Hank Williams, George Jones, Tammy Wynette, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, the true old country music. We grew up around it, and it's got into our blood. Tom, maybe especially with his writing and his slang, the way he talks and sings and writes. A lot of Heartbreaker songs, we were all rock and roll band, kind of '60s-sounding type rock and roll band, but there's a country strain in a lot of the songs that Tom wrote that are his deep connection to the South. It was perfect that they would want to honor him with a country album.

Kousha Navidar: Well, it's great that it's out now and there's so much more that we could ask, but I want to get out on music. I'm going to say my guest has been Mike Campbell, guitar player, great songwriter, vocalist, and leader of the band The Dirty Knobs.

Mike Campbell: Thank you very much, great job.

Kousha Navidar: He was also the lead guitarist and co-writer of Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers. Look out for The Dirty Knobs' new album, it's called Vagabonds, Virgins & Misfits. It's out this Friday. Mike, thank you so much for joining us and for the music.

Mike Campbell: Thanks. I appreciate it very much.

Kousha Navidar: Totally. Let's go out on that song. It's Ways to Be Wicked. It's performed by Margo Price and Mike Campbell. Here it is on.

[MUSIC - Margo Price and Mike Campbell: Ways to Be Wicked]

[00:22:16] [END OF AUDIO]

 

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