Title: Glenn Ligon's 10 Pieces of Art to See in New York (100 Pieces of Art)

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We are continuing WNYC's centennial with 100 pieces of art to see in New York City. A completely unscientific but heartfelt recognition that we live in a city with some of the finest art around. We've been asking experts in the field for the recommendations. We spoke in with several connoisseurs from ARTnews editor Sarah Douglas to Thelma Golden from the Studio Museum of Harlem.

Today we have New York's own artist and curator, Glenn Ligon. He has exhibited work widely and his work can be seen at the Tate Modern, Museum of Modern Art, the Whitney, National Gallery of ART in Washington, DC, the Art Institute in Chicago and so many more. You can see his work now in New York City at 10th Avenue and 18th Street. A commission titled Untitled (America/Me). Glenn, welcome back.

Glenn Ligon: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to know what is your favorite piece of art to see in New York City. Maybe it's a piece of public art or something in one of the museums. Big, small. We want to know what it is. 212-433-9692 212-433-WNYC. Our social media is available as well @allofitwnyc, what is your favorite piece of art to see? All right. All we told you, Glenn, is to come up with 10 choices that had meaning to you or had a story to go along that interested you. What did the work have to make it to your list?

Glenn Ligon: I tried to think about things that were in public spaces that people didn't necessarily need to go to pay somewhere to see and things that I see on my journeys around the city. That's my criteria for a lot of the choices I made.

Alison Stewart: Awesome. Let's start with David Hammons's documented unnamed performance with the Henry Ward Beecher Monument, Columbus Park in Brooklyn. David Hammons is a well-known artist, part of JAM Just Above Midtown, the Black Arts Movement. I believe he's still alive at 81.

Glenn Ligon: Yes, still alive.

Alison Stewart: I love this. Could you describe this piece of work?

Glenn Ligon: What it is is a performance. There's an existing sculpture in this public park in Brooklyn and it is of Henry Ward Beecher who was an abolitionist. There at the base of this sculpture is a figure of an emancipated Black woman barefoot, fairly close. there's a video of David Hammons during a blizzard one day putting a scarf around this figure.

Alison Stewart: I love that.

Glenn Ligon: I Love the idea. You can see there are images online. There was an article in the New York Times about it. I love the idea of monuments not being set in time. That we keep responding to them, have feelings about them, but also this beautiful gesture of just putting a scarf about Black women in a snowstorm. It's kind of absurd, but it's also very beautiful. Something about care, something about memory, something about representation.

Alison Stewart: You know what I think is interesting is it's not a sanctioned piece of art.

Glenn Ligon: Exactly.

Alison Stewart: It's just art that you can take in.

Glenn Ligon: He just did that and then disappeared. That's a lot of David. I remember I lived in downtown Brooklyn in the late '80s, and there would be this guy hammering bottle caps onto telephone poles in Cadman Plaza, right near this sculpture. This was 20 years before. I just kept walking by and was like, "What the hell is this?"

[laughter]

Then those telephone poles became a piece called Higher Goals. It was David Hammons who was out there every day hammering thousands and thousands of bottle caps onto these telephone poles in these beautiful patterns. That became an artwork. It just expanded my idea of what an artist does, where they do their work. What is an artwork. He's amazing.

Alison Stewart: You have on here Jack Whitten, Atopolis. Am I pronouncing that correctly?

Glenn Ligon: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Also, Willem de Kooning, Pirate. Both are at MoMA. Willem de Kooning made this painting Pirate, I think when he was starting to enter Alzheimer's.

Glenn Ligon: I think maybe before that.

Alison Stewart: Before that?

Glenn Ligon: But the line is it's a porous line, I guess. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Obviously the will to paint is still there.

Glenn Ligon: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What does it say to you as an artist?

Glenn Ligon: Pirate has a funny story for me because it-- I used to go to MoMA all the time when I was in college just to go see what's up. Pirate, literally what's up on the walls. Pirate would be up on the walls because Pirate was considered one of de Kooning's masterpieces and the masterpieces are always up. Atopolis is up by Jack Whitten. That's another discussion like other masterpieces. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: [unintelligible 00:04:52] you tell me that.

Glenn Ligon: There's a huge show coming of Jack Whitten's work in the spring next year. I wrote a little for the catalogs and very love Whitten's work. In order for something to be recognized as a masterpiece, it has to be up.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Glenn Ligon: Pirate was always up, but Jack Whitten wasn't always up. Jack Whitten's a later acquisition. There was a moment when I went to MoMA and I realized, oh, this Jack Whitten painting's been up for six months. Then it came down. Then two other artists I love, Julie Mehretu and Terry Adkins, their work went up in Whitten's place. I thought, "Somebody got the memo over there." [laughter]

To finish my story about de Kooning, I used to go visit it and I would have this weird sensation in front of it. The painting would get sharp in my eyes and brighten, and I'd brighten up. I thought it was a mystical transmission of the painting's meaning to my brain. I always loved that painting. It happened in that painting particularly. It happened sometimes with other work.

Then I was in college and I was once driving up to school with my brother, and he asked me to look at the street signs. I was like, "I can't read them." He's like, "You need glasses." Sure enough, I needed glasses. The next time I went to look at Pirate, that thing didn't happen because it was simply my eyes taking a moment to focus on what's in front of me, which I had mistaken as, like, arts mystery.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Needed some good glasses.

Glenn Ligon: Still love the painting.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a couple calls. Lawrence is calling in from Brooklyn Heights. Hi, Lawrence.

Lawrence: Hey. Hi. You had asked on the air, what's your favorite piece of art? I told your screener I didn't know the name, but I've googled it since then. It's just called Beaker with Apes. It's up at the Cloisters, and it's a 15th century drinking cup, essentially, but ornamental. It's enameled with incredible detailed illustrations inside and out of a band of monkeys robbing a traveling peddler in the woods. I guess it's all about idleness because he was taking a nap and they steal all his stuff.

The detail of the illustration is amazing. The monkeys are really weird and evil. I was just struck because Brian Lehrer, before he was talking about The Wizard of Oz, and I was thinking of the flying monkeys, and there's the whole thing there. Anyway, I go a couple of times a year to it, just up to the Cloisters to see this thing in particular, because for decades it has just blown away. It's my favorite work of art available to the public in New York City.

Alison Stewart: Lawrence, thank you. Let's talk to Hank from Fort Lee. Hi, Hank.

Hank: Hey, Alison. Great segment. Bust of Sylvette at University-- I guess it's called University Village. 100 Bleecker Street, below NYU, there is an amazing Picasso, and a lot of people don't know it's there. Just a quick anecdote. My girlfriend was born and raised in the Village and lived on Fifth Avenue by Washington Square Park for many years. She had never ever seen it until I took her by it one day and she was just amazed that it was there and she didn't know it existed.

Alison Stewart: Hank, thanks for the message. Our guest is Glenn Ligon. We are talking about 10 pieces of art that you should see in New York City. It's part of our 100 series. We wonder what your favorite piece of art is to see in New York City. Maybe a piece of public art, something in one of the museums, big or small. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Back to your list, Warhol, Shadows at Dia. How is this different than the average Warhol painting?

Glenn Ligon: It was made as a series, so there may be, I'm not sure the exact number, like 100 paintings in all different colors hung edge to edge all around the room. It's actually a Dia Beacon, so you have to get on a train to see it. It's a nice ride up there. I first saw this work in SoHo in late '70s, maybe '78 or '79. In high school, first time I had brown rice [laughter] going down the SoHo to the restaurant called Eat that was run by artists and saw these Warhol paintings. I didn't know what they were about, but they made a deep impression on me. I've talked to a number of artists who also saw these Warhol paintings and were--

Alison Stewart: Were interesting.

Glenn Ligon: They're paintings of nothing. They're paintings of shadows. [laughs] In some ways I thought, "If somebody can make a whole exhibition out of paintings of nothing, then I could be an artist, I guess." [laughs]

Alison Stewart: The next thing on your list cracks me up because it says the Museum of Modern Art, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the whole building, everything. Tell me about your memories you have with the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Glenn Ligon: My mom, God rest her soul, when I said that I was interested in art, she let me do things that were around art. I did drawing classes at the Metropolitan when I was in high school, and I did pottery classes in Greenwich Village. When I told her I wanted to be an artist, she almost had a heart attack because she just thought, "Well, I was sending you things for entertainment. I didn't want you to be an artist. How are you going to make any money? Every artist I've ever heard of is dead. Like Picasso." I was like, "Yes, Picasso is dead, but there are some really big ones."

I put the Met on there because it's such a comprehensive museum. Every time you go, you can find something else you haven't seen before. I would just wander around and look at Islamic calligraphy and look at French still life paintings. I had a little notebook with me. It was drawings full of drawings of French impressionist paintings. Hadn't ever been anywhere, never been on a plane, but my notebooks full of French landscapes that eventually I hoped to see. It's been a resource, but many museums have been like that for me.

Alison Stewart: I'm curious about your feelings about the Met, trying to catch up with diversity and noting that some of the past shows may have been incomplete. Shall we say?

Glenn Ligon: Shall we say, yes.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: What are your feelings about the Met trying to catch up?

Glenn Ligon: I think a lot of museums they got work to do. I've been heartened by the emphasis and programming of women and people of color. There's a fantastic show coming up in the spring of Jennie C. Jones, an artist I love the work of. She's doing a rooftop commission. Lorna Simpson, the photographer, is also having a show at the Met. There's an amazing show up now called Flight to Egypt. It's about artists who are interested in Egypt as a source material. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: They're trying.

Glenn Ligon: They're trying. Somebody trying to get right with God.

Alison Stewart: This says, "I enjoy the lions at the library for their beauty and what the beauty they represent. They're iconic, and you can see them in so many places. One of my favorites is Ghostbusters." This says, "Medieval armor at the Met has been my favorite since childhood, especially the horse armor." Thanks for that message. Someone wrote, "I love the mosaics throughout the East Village." That's another fun one. Let's talk to Arthur, who's calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Arthur. Arthur, you there? Hello? We'll go back and see if Arthur's there next time. Let's try Lincoln, who's calling in from the Catskills. Hi, Lincoln.

Lincoln: Hello. Can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Yes, we hear you great.

Lincoln: Oh, good. I'm thinking about the one piece of art, public art, that impresses me every time I see it is the giant mural at 30 Rockefeller Center, which was painted by, I think, Rivera, a great muralist. It was painted in the '30s or '40s, and it's an homage to all the great new things happening in America at that time and all the optimism, the labors represented in industry and culture, the arts, and so on. The giant mural in the lobby, I hope it's still there, of 30 Rockefeller Center.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Andrea on line three. She's calling in from Hell's Kitchen. Hi, Andrea.

Andrea: Hello, Alison. Thank you for having me on. I wanted to say, especially in relation to your previous segment, that one of the greatest artist stuffed things in New York are the Broadway shows or any theater that you can go to, because basically it's a proscenium march, which is a frame, and you're looking inside the frame, except that everything that's happening in it is live and in real time.

Just if you take Death Becomes Her, it's the costumes, it's the sets, it's. It's the choreography. It's the most bang for your buck, I hate to say it, in the whole city because you're seeing so many artisans and again, technicians, people working in real time while you're watching the show.

Literally, from show to the Hills of California, which you've also done segments on, you're looking inside this picture that's inside a frame that's made for the audience to absorb. You can travel around the world watching shows. Meaning, like just in New York. My other one that I have to mention is the giant hippo that used to be in front of Lincoln center in the Tutu. That's Fantasia bronze hippo. They've moved her. If Mr. Ligon knows where it is, shout it out.

[laughter]

Glenn Ligon: I've never heard of this. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Oh, it's so good. It's so good. This edges into our next thing, the Edges of Ailey at the Whitney Museum. Current show, we've done a little bit about it. What does the show tell us about the connection between art and dance?

Glenn Ligon: I think it is trying to present a portrait of Alvin Ailey as a choreographer, a dancer, but also present a portrait of his deep interest in visual arts and culture, his connections to visual artists, artists who may not have had a direct connection to Ailey but are thinking about dance in their work, the performative aspects of art. I think it's an amazing, amazing show. It's worth many visits.

Alison Stewart: I love this one, Art in the Airport. That's on your list. A list of great artists. Tell us a little bit more about art in the airport.

Glenn Ligon: I think it's because there's a percentage of construction budgets for airports now is geared towards art. They've done fantastic interventions in the airport at LaGuardia. I'm trying to remember what terminal that's in. Terminal C at LaGuardia. There's Rashid Johnson, Aliza Nisenbaum, Virginia Overton, Fred Wilson and others who have done these amazing pieces all over the space.

Actually, I was asked to do a commission for that, but I proposed a neon that would be the first lines of A Tale of Two Cities, Best of times, worst of times. They were like, "Not appropriate for an airport." Worst of times, like, oh, they lost our luggage. Worst of times.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: There are a lot of worst of times that happened with the plane. I understand the point. Let's talk to Elizabeth on line four. Hi, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Hello. Good afternoon or good midday.

Alison Stewart: What do you like to--

Elizabeth: I'm an art historian, so I wasn't calling to talk about the museums I've worked at or the things I've created. I was calling to talk about somewhere I used to live before I left for India and when I came back. On East 51st Street. It's the Greenacre Foundation. It's open to the public almost every day.

It has amazing waterfall and cafe. It was designed by the Japanese architect sculptor Hideo Sasaki, opened in 1971. I was there as a child for the opening. Abby Aldrich Rockefeller, when she was married to Jean Mauzé, endowed it. The foundation is a nonprofit conservancy, and they have a cafe, and it's a very magical place.

Alison Stewart: Elizabeth, thank you so much. Let's talk to Alex in Park Slope. Alex, how are you?

Alex: I'm doing great. I wanted to say there's a small piece of the Berlin Wall in Manhattan. I can't remember where it is, but every time I come upon it, it's a surprise and it's amazing.

Alison Stewart: It's amazing. It was near where my guitar teacher was. It's all the way south by Westfield Mall. It's down that area, right? Oh, Alex is. No, check it out down there. I'm pretty sure it's down in that part. My Guest is Glenn Ligon. He is our curator for this segment. We're talking about everybody's favorite pieces of art in New York City. Let us know, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We asked Glenn for a list of 10. Okay. Someone texted in about one of the things on your list. It says, "Martin Wong's graffiti collection at the Museum of the City of New York. The kings and queens and pioneers of early New York subways and street arts are represented." That is number seven on your list.

Glenn Ligon: Yes. Martin Wong was amazing painter, lived on the Lower east side and did of work documenting that community. Poets, writers he knew, pictures of firemen, pictures of street grates and gates on storefronts. Amazing, amazing painter, but a huge collector of graffiti and donated that collection. I think after his death, that collection was donated to Museum of City New York. That's up right now to be seen.

Alison Stewart: What makes graffiti art?

Glenn Ligon: Oh, interesting question. I grew up in the South Bronx, and so in the '60s and '70s, I was surrounded by graffiti on the subways. I didn't know it was art, but I'm a painter who uses a lot of words, a lot of text in my art. I think that the origin of that was the words, the texts that were on the subway cars I was riding every day.

The line between what is art and what is not art, I think is very porous now. It was maybe in the '70s, graffiti was like a blight on the city. Now there's a museum show [laughs] collecting this stuff. There's also one at the Bronx Museum, FUTURA 2000 another graffiti artist whose work I saw on drains, but in a museum now. I think the line between what was considered vandalism, what considered art has dissolved.

Alison Stewart: We're getting our texts in from our listeners. "The bronze Ballerina Hippo is now across the street from Grand Central Station." There you go. We got someone else who agreed, "The Grand Central, the restoration created Serenity, which is a lovely piece." You mentioned art in public places. What do you like about public art? What should people go see?

Glenn Ligon: Well, because it's just around and free you can just encounter it. There's amazing public art in Harlem, Houston Conwill, which is in the subway station, 125th Street. Maren Hassinger also at subway station, 110th street station on the 2, 3. Terry Adkins, Harlem Encores, which is on the Metro North Station on 125th Street. These are Major pieces by major artists. I love that they're there permanently and available to enjoy whenever people want.

Alison Stewart: You mentioned Houston Commonwealth's Open Secret. That's number nine. What's unusual? What's it like? What's unusual about it?

Glenn Ligon: I think what's nice about it is just kind of feeling like-- Most art in subways has done, like, mosaics. His photo feels more like you're seeing little sculptures embedded into the subway station itself. I like that artists being able to take their practice, that's a more sculptural practice, and be true to that, not have to change a medium because it's in a particular place.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Arlen, who is calling in from the Upper West Side. Hi, Arlen.

Arlen: Hi. What I love is at the Eleanor Roosevelt statue at Riverside and 72nd Street. It's so uniconic. She's leaning back, relaxed. Her arms are folded and wearing casual clothing. It's very human. It's not the way we usually see great people depicted in statues. I wonder at it every time I see it.

Alison Stewart: Love it. Thank you so much for calling. All right. Number 10. I know this person, Glenn Ligon. Give Us a Poem, 2007.

Glenn Ligon: Bragging on myself.

Alison Stewart: I love that you put this on the list. Tell us more.

Glenn Ligon: Actually, this piece isn't on view yet, but it will be on view again when the Studio Museum in Harlem opens in the fall of '25. It's a neon that was a commission. I was asked to do a piece for Public Atrium attached to the museum. A piece that would be addressing the street, 125th street, very busy street, but viewable day and night. Even if you're not in the museum, you could still see it.

The piece has the words me and we in it, sort of mirroring each other. It's based on a poem by Muhammad Ali. He was doing a commencement speech at Harvard. After his speech, someone yelled out from the audience, "Give us a poem." He said, "Me, we." I love that Ali's sense of his fate as an individual was tied to the fate of Black people in general as a community. That's what the piece is. It's one of these pieces that's been around long enough that people tell me their kids have grown up with it. It's become a kind of little landmark. The Studio Museum's building is opening in fall of '25, and that piece will be in the lobby when it opens, so can't wait for that.

Alison Stewart: Glenn Ligon, thank you so much for making a list for us. We really appreciate it.

Glenn Ligon: Oh, thank you so much, so much fun.

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