Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Saba has become a major figure in the new generation of Chicago hip-hop. On his latest project, he teamed up with the legend of a previous generation, the producer No ID. He's been nicknamed the Godfather of Chicago hip-hop and has mentored groundbreaking musicians like Common and Kanye.

Their new album is titled From the Private Collection of Saba & No ID. It touches on all sorts of subjects; religion, family, fame. Even hair. Here's a clip of the track head.rap.

[MUSIC - Saba & No ID: head.rap]

Alison Stewart: From the Private Collection of Saba & No ID had been in the works for years, starting as a mixtape and then morphing into a full album. When Saba joined us in January to preview it, he still didn't actually know when it would be released. Well, the good news is it's finally out. It dropped on March 18th, and it has gotten rave reviews. Pitchfork called it a "masterclass in melodic rap." Saba will be at the Blue Note on April 11th, 12th, and 13th. Here's my conversation with Saba.

[music]

Alison Stewart: How did you and No ID first get introduced to each other?

Saba: Man, it's a long story made short.

Alison Stewart: Okay.

Saba: In 2018, before releasing my second album, he was working at a label, and he was interested in signing me. Why I say there's a longer version of it; my father's also a musician from Chicago, and they worked on music in the '90s. It's one of those stories where it's some separation, years and years go by, and then we're all reintroduced as a new generation of artists. It's been a cool full circle for not just me, but also my family.

Alison Stewart: When did the collaboration get started in entirety? Whose idea was it?

Saba: 2022 is when we started it. After releasing my last album, Few Good Things, I was heading on tour. Meeting with No ID, he was just making beats. Making beats every time I would see him. He had like 100 beats.

Alison Stewart: He sent you 100 beats?

Saba: He sent me 100 of them. He sent me a 100 of. I didn't expect him to actually do it. I had to shoot the shot. He was like, "How many should I send?" I was like, "Send them all." "Send them all," and he actually did it. That's when the collaboration officially started. That was me touring, so it was mostly a mixtape. Then coming home from that tour, it was like, "All right, let's actually do this thing now." We show what we can do just me being on a roll, working in the background, kind of. It's been actually a really incredible process, just working on a craft with someone who has dedicated their life to the craft in that way. Like being able to learn from and pick up on a lot of things. Sitting and just soaking up information.

Alison Stewart: You're on tour and you're getting the beats. When did you actually come to work with him in a studio? Did you?

Saba: Yes. Still 2022. Maybe summer 2022 is when we actually started to get in the studio, and we spent a lot of 2023 together in sessions in the studio.

Alison Stewart: What's it like when you're in-studio with somebody and you're working with somebody? You can do stuff on beats back and forth over the computer, but when you're actually physically with someone?

Saba: For me, I would say being in the studio is really where there's room for the alchemy to happen. That's where the actual magic, when you look at the tour documentaries on streaming and things like that, or studio sessions, that's where you see people's faces glow up. You see the ideas come from the abyss. It's real collaboration. Doing things on the road and separate, email, or anything like that, you can also make great music that way- I'm not saying you can't- but I think in terms of it being collaborative, the studio, it's a sacred space. It's a lot of conversation that happens, that influences what wears you right down, what snares you use. Every decision is made based off of wherever the energy is in that room. It might be someone who just walks in the room. There's no telling, really, with the studio sessions, but it's room for magic when y'all are together in the studio. Always.

Alison Stewart: I think the word alchemy was exactly right.

Saba: Yes. I can't take credit. I got that from him.

Alison Stewart: Okay. [laughs]

Saba: I got that from him.

Alison Stewart: It's magic. [unintelligible 00:05:48] [crosstalk]

Saba: Yes. It's something that I just absolutely agree with. I've been reintroducing that into my vocabulary because that's what it feels like. It feels like alchemy, you know?

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a track. This one is called Back in Office from Saba and No ID.

[MUSIC - Saba & No ID: Back in Office]

Alison Stewart: Oscar De La Hoya and Jack Kerouac. Come on now.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: My guest is Saba. We're talking about his forthcoming album in collaboration with the legendary Chicago producer No ID. Tell me if this is true because you believe the Internet, whether to believe or not, that, Saba, when No ID wanted to sign you, he was with a major label, and you were a little bit skeptical. Is that true?

Saba: Yes. I think that's an oversimplification, but that's essentially, it was like in bullet points that's what happened.

Alison Stewart: What were you skeptical of?

Saba: I guess I had done things a certain way in my career thus far. That was 2018, so I was still pretty young in terms of where I was at; an album, two albums in. I always had this, I guess, attitude where I feel like I just take responsibility for what happens in my journey. I didn't want to relinquish the keys to the driver's seat. Also paperwork and lawyers and all type of stuff that's beyond my pay grade. I'm just like, "What we do here is pretty simple. We make great music and we put it out." The people who like it are usually the people who help us spread and grow the message or the music.

I don't know, I think it just became complicated. This was a much easier version of it to just collab and make music together as opposed to doing whatever--

Alison Stewart: That's just a middleman.

Saba: I don't know. I think with more conversations, maybe we would have gotten it to where we both felt fairly treated. A lot of those things, there's not enough conversation that happens. It's real quick. Everybody wants to get it done quickly. I don't know. I think part of it, being from Chicago, I'm a little protected. Also knowing how much it means to me, it's hard to give that away. It's hard to trust strangers with it. I'm appreciative. I'm really grateful for the way that the journey went, but that was definitely something that kept me up for many, many nights.

Alison Stewart: How does your relationship evolve?

Saba: Man, it went a lot of different places in that few years span, from dropping my second album to being where I'm at now. I think at some point in that time, we kind of reconnected and reintroduced the conversation, and he was no longer at the company. That's where the relationship was really able to evolve, because it had no stipulation on it. It can be anything that we decide to make it at that point. I went into it not necessarily expecting to make music with him, surprisingly, I guess, to some people. It was way more like a mentorship kind of role. He was helping me on the business side. When he started offering the music, I'm like, "That's like extra credit." It's been cool.

I really have been enjoying the process of just being able to learn around them and making music with them. It's been really cool. I felt challenged in a lot of ways where I wanted to grow. I wanted to show up. Working with somebody who's already considered a legend, it's like, "I want to show that I belong here. I could stand next to this and live up to it and do my part as the artist." Also, as a producer, I was going in and he was letting me produce some of his ideas and things like that. It was a lot of trust that built in that relationship. It's refreshing to me to just make music the way I know how, and it'd be cool. Even if you're working alongside somebody who is respected as a No ID from the city.

Alison Stewart: How did working with No ID make you a better songwriter? Then, how did it make you a better producer?

Saba: [chuckles] To try and describe what some of these sessions are like, I usually start my sessions around 2:00 PM. I get to the studio, and sometimes there's just No ID and Raphael Saadiq just in a room talking.

Alison Stewart: That's pretty good talk.

Saba: It's a great time. I'm like, "Man, they could charge for this panel, and I would be one of the people who-

Alison Stewart: Showed up.

Saba: -bought a ticket to attend the panel."

Alison Stewart: I'm just hearing the information that they're saying, and that's what they're talking about. It'll be like Raphael and him talking about what makes a good song to them. What they witness. They've been in this for generations. They're just talking about what they've observed, what they witnessed. I'm like, "Wow, I get to hear all of this information and then I get to write a song after hearing it." I get to use some of the tools. I get to use some of the things that they're actually mentioning.

The biggest thing, he's very open with information. Some people are really protected. They learned all of these tips and tricks to make music, and they hoard it. He's the opposite. If you're in a room and he's there, he's usually really open with, "This is how I did this. This is how you should do this."

Alison Stewart: Oh, nice.

Saba: "You should try this."

Alison Stewart: He's not gatekeeping.

Saba: At all. That's a big part. Then, I would say, as a producer, he's one of the people that always is-- I think I get caught in my rapper role a lot of times because that's what most people know me for. As a producer, I usually produce some of my own music, and then I'll just usually play the background as far as being a producer. I don't go out and produce for a lot of people besides my friends and stuff. He's one of the people who will usually be on me like, "Hey, where the beats at? Are you making beats right now?" to kind of stay in practice. I would say just having someone. Even just as a producer, part of that is just craft. It's just practice. It's just like, you have to be in, practice. Are you doing the job?

I think just having him be on it that way, it's a reminder to myself sometimes because sometimes I forget. Literally, it's an unfortunate truth but sometimes I forget.

Alison Stewart: That's funny.

Saba: It's like, "Oh, yes, you have other talents. You have other gifts." Producing, to me, it's kind of like tastemaking. It's like being a good curator or a good interior designer. You put this sound with this sound. Somebody else might not have done that, but those ideas come straight from your experience and your brain. It's like only you can make it sound like that. You've got to do your due diligence and get it done so it's cool to just have somebody checking in, making sure that that's also something that is growing and just as much time is being put into that as well.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a couple of songs from the album. This is head.rap. We played a little bit at the beginning. It's been released as a single. Tell me about where the song came from.

Saba: I was in a studio with a few of my friends, and somehow the conversation became just stories. We looked around the room. The engineer had locks. One of my other friends had locks. I had mine. It was like everybody that was in there had decent long locks. We was just talking about it and what it meant for us, how we started them, how we-- You know what I'm saying? So many stories behind it. I got to explaining to my friends. I'm like, "What actually happened for me is one of my friends got arrested, and they went in with a full head of locks. By maybe the second or third court date, they had waves." I'm like, "Whoa, where did--" You know what I'm saying? You don't even recognize this person.

I was growing my hair at the time, and it just made me want to-- I'm like, "I'll try." I never did it on purpose. It was kind of accident. I stumbled into it. Just seeing the room and what it meant, it kind of inspired-- I'm like, "I could just tell this story on the song." That's kind of where it came from.

Alison Stewart: The song has Madison McFerrin.

Saba: Madison McFerrin.

Alison Stewart: Bringing her on this show. Love her. OG and Jordan Ward. How did that group come together.

Saba: Madison McFerrin was sampled. No ID, 1 of the 100 beats was this Madison McFerrin sample. OG and Jordan Ward both also work with No ID. It's a no-brainer, almost. No ID was playing them some music, and that's how they ended up on it. I called Jordan maybe right before he was going on tour, and him getting to see it-- I don't know. Everybody's just so talented. That's the alchemy that I was talking about where everything just falls into the right place and people say the right things. Like, Jordan's energy was perfect for it. OG writing the chord. It was just a lot of things that went perfect for me in terms of getting this song to the finish line. I don't know. It was one of them for me.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen. This is Saba.

[MUSIC - Saba & No ID: head.rap]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to Saba, my guest. Last time you were on the show, it was for a few good things. We ended the interview. I said I wanted to know about something good that happened in your life, and this is what you said.

Saba: Yesterday, I ordered a really expensive couch, and it got to my house and it was defective. I called to return it, and they were like, "All right, we'll send you all of your money back. We don't want the couch back," so I got to keep the couch and the money. That's a win. That's a win.

Alison Stewart: That's a win.

Saba: Huge win.

Alison Stewart: Do you still have the couch?

Saba: Hell, yes.

[laughter]

Saba: Hello, yes. I still got that couch. A free couch, yes, I still got that.

Alison Stewart: My guest has been Saba. Thanks for being with us.

Saba: Thank you for having me.