Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar filling in for Alison Stewart. My next guest is the person responsible for making sure that Pearl Jam can hear themselves on stage when they break into this riff.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: Karrie Keyes has been on the road with Pearl Jam and Eddie Vedder for about three decades. In the 1990s, she also toured with the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Keyes is a monitor engineer, which means she's responsible for mixing live concert sounds, not for the audience, but so the band can hear what they're playing. It's a role that relatively few women have held. That was even more true when Keyes was starting out. In 2013, Keyes Co-founded the organization Sound Girls, which spotlights and offers grants to women working behind the scenes in the music industry. For another installment of our Women's History Month series, Equalizers, I am joined by Karrie Keyes. Karrie, welcome to All Of It.

Karrie Keyes: Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me.

Kousha Navidar: I'm great. I'm so excited to get to talk to you. I think this is such a wonderful experience that you have and career. I got to ask, I want to dive right into it. What was your first job in audio engineering?

Karrie Keyes: Unloading trucks. Back then there was very limited audio programs to trade schools or even through universities and pretty much focused all on recording, and they would do a little six-week crash course in live sound. Yes, most people back then started by pushing gear around.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, absolutely. You went on to great things from there. You toured with the California ska band, The Untouchables, when you were only 19, is that right?

Karrie Keyes: Probably, yes.

Kousha Navidar: You're unloading and loading trucks. You turn 19, you tore the California ska band The Untouchables. How did you land that position at such a young age?

Karrie Keyes: By loading trucks and helping people out that couldn't afford to hire people. I started working under the mentorship of Dave Rat, which owns Rock Sound Systems, which at that point in time was a couple of little sound systems that would fit in a van or little box truck. We worked side by side for a long time with the engineers for The Untouchables. We provide the gear. Come in and set it up, and those people started moving on. We filled those positions.

Kousha Navidar: Do you remember what it was that made you want to go into audio? Like you're saying, unpaid loading and unload and trust. Do you remember what drew you towards that back then?

Karrie Keyes: I loved being around music. I knew I wanted to do something in music. When I was in school, teachers and counselors just said, that's not possible. I hung out at a lot of punk rock shows and made friends and started working.

Kousha Navidar: That's amazing. Yes. It just drew you in. While we're talking about The Untouchables, we got to hear a clip of the song What's Gone Wrong. Let's hear it right now.

[MUSIC - The Untouchables: What's Gone Wrong]

Kousha Navidar: Let's go back to those early days. Let's stay in them for a second. I'm sure that you learned a lot. Do you remember maybe what the first, most important things you learned about audio engineering were? Do any lessons really stick out to you from those very early days?

Karrie Keyes: Such combat audio back then.

Kousha Navidar: What's combat audio?

Karrie Keyes: You're just reacting on the fly for every possible thing that's being thrown at you.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, I see.

Karrie Keyes: I guess probably the biggest thing is just to ask questions. I think if you ask any veteran, they would rather people ask them questions than to have to go and fix what they did wrong. That was probably the most important thing. The other most important thing is actually showing up on time and staying the whole day, and completing the job, which seems like a funny thing to say, but that happens more than we would like in the industry of people being late, not showing up, leaving.

Kousha Navidar: Don't be flaky.

Karrie Keyes: Don't be flaky.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Execute on what you can control kind of. If you can be on time, be on time. You mentioned a mentor that you had. When you think about those early folks in the music industry, that really helped give you your start, who else comes to mind? Who are some of your biggest mentors?

Karrie Keyes: Dave Rat, of course. Probably-- I mean, I have really good relationships with a lot of other engineers, but back then, everybody was really still figuring it out. I would say my biggest mentors are probably the artists that I worked with.

Kousha Navidar: Like The Untouchables, and who else?

Karrie Keyes: I still ground The Untouchables as they gave me all the skills I needed. It was 12 people in the band, I think, and the shows were high-energy and a ton going on. You're just watching and picking up any signals from the 12 people in the band so that being able to juggle that many people on stage and that the amount of instruments and what was happening is really grounding.

Kousha Navidar: Can you help me understand a little bit? I'm sure folks, listeners, right now might not know what a live concert engineer is. Specifically a monitor engineer. What does a monitor engineer do?

Karrie Keyes: My job is to make sure that the band can hear, which whatever they need on stage. I'm not necessarily doing a left and right mix for them. Very rarely are they all listening to the same thing. Now technology is-- Most of the artists use in-ear mixes, but back then it was all wedges, in-ears did not exist.

Kousha Navidar: Wedges are the kind of speakers.

Karrie Keyes: Yes, wedges are just little speakers that go on the stage hopefully pointing at the band members. They don't really come in really great. Also, you see us propping them up with pieces of wood moving around.

Kousha Navidar: This is something that folks who go to concerts and aren't in the audio engineering world might not realize, but when you're an audience member in the concert, you are hearing a mix of what everyone on stage is playing live and it's being blasted at you through speakers, but when you're actually playing it, you can't really hear that mix. You are just hearing a lot of cacophony. Those band members need something that can keep them in time and harmonious. That's where you come in.

Karrie Keyes: That's where I come in. It seems like it would be-- It's easier said than done because I'm fighting, first, the band volume on stage, then the PA, then any horrible room reflections, and then add audience in there that are super energetic for the first five songs, and they're drowning out the band.

Kousha Navidar: How do you do it? Are you sitting somewhere? How are you hearing what they're hearing?

Karrie Keyes: It depends on the bigger productions these days. Typically all the monitor world and stuff is built either backstage or underneath the stage. They have microphones on stage that they can talk directly to the engineers. Typically, now there's more than one engineer handling different band members because it can get really tricky and complicated and one person can't give-- It's hard to give your full attention to every single band member.

Kousha Navidar: Yu might actually be handling at times a team of engineers who are all helping you make that final mix that the band members hear.

Karrie Keyes: Yes. Kind of. Like right now on Pearl Jam, on stage left, we have wings on the side of the stage. We're still hidden, but we're pretty eye level to the stage and the band guys. Currently, last tour, we switched, and right now, I'm only doing Ed monitoring needs. Another person's mixing the rest of the band guys.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, I see. You split it up? Like divided.

Karrie Keyes: We split it up, and it depends on what tour it is. Some people take-- Some acts are using wedges and in-ears. Someone will do all the in-ears and someone will do all the wedges.

Kousha Navidar: Interesting. Sorry, go ahead. Yes. Or?

Karrie Keyes: I'm just like Beyonce. One person's mixing Beyonce only, and then someone else is handling the band.

Kousha Navidar: Just to point out, Ed is Eddie Vedder. You are literally maybe his best bud on stage, so you can make sure--

Karrie Keyes: I'm either his best bud or his worst enemy.

Kousha Navidar: Worst enemy, yes. Something I find fascinating talking to you is how much live makes a difference in your job, obviously. When we think of audio engineers, we often think of folks in studios with those big boards saying, "Hey, do this slightly differently. Do a new take." You don't get new takes. You get that one shot. Did live always appeal to you? Did you ever want to be a studio engineer?

Karrie Keyes: Those options weren't really there since I wasn't presented with-- we could list off 20 audio tech jobs at this point. Starting in live sound, the times that I did go in the studio, I found I didn't have the patience for it because we're used to working in 30 seconds to get things done.

Kousha Navidar: You know, that's a similarity, I feel, in some ways. I love live radio, and it's just like the mic turns on and the show starts, and it's kind of-- I don't know if I would call myself an impatient person, but I definitely like the thrill. I don't know if you feel the same way. There is a certain thrill, isn't there?

Karrie Keyes: There is a thrill, yes.

Kousha Navidar: Let's talk about the Red Hot Chili Peppers a little bit. From 1990 to 2000, you were a monitor engineer for Red Hot Chili Peppers. How did you end up with that band?

Karrie Keyes: Kind of the same way I was working for Rat Sound, and we were the punk rock company of Southern California. There was companies that just, one, they didn't pay that well, two, they didn't want their equipment damaged, or three, it wasn't worth their time. We came in and swept all those shows up, which was fine because we loved working in that environment anyway.

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Karrie Keyes: We just did-- Chili Peppers were an LA band, so there was a ton of LA one-offs with them, became friends with them and started working with them, and that was that.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Let's play some music. Here's Give It Away from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

[MUSIC - Red Hot Chili Peppers: Give It Away]

Kousha Navidar: That was Give It Away from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. We're talking with Karrie Keyes, who is a monitor engineer who is part of our series looking at influential people in production who are women. We are talking about all of the bands that you've worked with, and we're talking about the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I assume that the job of a monitor engineer is not a one-size-fits-all process. What are the different variables that you have to pay attention to as a monitor engineer?

Karrie Keyes: Yes, that's a good question. There's the normal-- If we're playing outside, there's weather to deal with inside. Typically, every venue presents different challenges. You're in a club, a 500-seat club, the ceiling is probably maybe three feet above the band. You're like playing in a little tight box that gets hot and sweaty and that affects sound. Then you go into the arenas and they're just big and boomy and echoey and no one seems to like them. We've all managed to figure out how to play them, and I think make them sound pretty good. There's that. Then you add the band psychology into it.

Kousha Navidar: Tell me a little bit about that. Because I imagine that you have a-- sorry of the pun. You have a front-row seat to band dynamics. That's a lot of puns in there for you, but you've got a lot of psychology. You are so close with the band. How do you-- How often are you working with them one on one? How much of it is you doing something independent, coming back to them? What does that working relationship look like?

Karrie Keyes: I think that depends on what band or artist it is. They all have different ways that they operate. Some bands will sound check for longer than their show every single day, and that's just the way they work. At this point, we're dialed in sound-wise. Band members, they'll either text or mention something of, "This has been a problem, or I need-- let me just come in and work on them."

The other end of it is the psychology that's happening. Whatever's going on with them that day. By the time they get to sound check-- For Pearl Jam, it's probably not as bad, but some artists are doing five interviews before they even get to soundcheck and do it. Then we're in New York. You add the New York stress of doing a show is a lot different than playing in Tulsa, you know?

Kousha Navidar: Right.

Karrie Keyes: You have to balance all those pressures. Then there's band dynamics that you have to figure out and navigate around.

Kousha Navidar: We just got a text. I want to read this to you. It says, "Love this. In the old days, there were no monitors at all. Fingers in ears."

Karrie Keyes: Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, that's the case here.

Karrie Keyes: Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: Let's jump to some of the work that you're doing today. I want to talk about Sound Girls. When you were starting out, how many female engineers did you see around you, and how much has that changed over the last few decades?

Karrie Keyes: I see them on a regular basis now, so it's not-- When I show up to work, I'm no longer shocked to see another woman working, which is great. Back then, I probably worked-- I lost touch with her. I don't even know what her last name was, and I think her name was Rebecca. She was mixing X. That was super exciting because they were my favorite band. Then they had a woman mixing them, and then I got to work with them, and then the only other person I knew was Michelle. Took us over 20 years to actually meet.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow. It's just like you hear about these folks in the--

Karrie Keyes: You heard about them, you knew they existed, but there was no Internet. You couldn't Google them. Then hopefully get their email and get in contact with them.

Kousha Navidar: How is it today?

Karrie Keyes: Today, I am happy to say that when people call me for recommendations, I can give them an entire list of very qualified women for whatever role.

Kousha Navidar: Let's make sure we talk about Sound Girls because in 2013 you founded that organization. Sound Girls is aimed at supporting women in the music industry. Tell me how that started. Tell me what your mission is.

Karrie Keyes: It started because we did a panel. There was five of us on a panel for an AES convention which is the Audio Engineering Society conference that they have once a year, and they have it more than once a year but in different places. New York and Los Angeles has been the mainstays. I can't remember, it was titled The Women of Life Sound or something, like it was just the five of us, but we all met like an hour before and we instantly bonded. None of us-- I knew of Michelle. First time I met her.

I had worked with another woman, Deanne, that was on the panel. We knew each other, but everybody else I had never met, didn't hear of. Instantly, we bonded and we just stayed in touch after, and we were like, "If we could have just hung out with each other 20 years ago, how much different our career might have been?"

Kousha Navidar: To that point, I'm wondering what maybe quickly here as I'm looking at the clock, what resources does Sound Girls offer to your point?

Karrie Keyes: Mentorship, job opportunities, webinars. We have women that write articles for us. I think three of them have gone on from writing from us to go and write for the actual trade magazines, showcasing at conferences. Very much advocating in the industry for diversity and inclusion of just being that there are issues some people just will throw. They won't even look at the resumes from women or same with people of color. Pointing these things out and trying to get allies and make inroads wherever we can to get people.

Kousha Navidar: Is there a website that you want to plug for Sound Girls?

Karrie Keyes: Soundgirls.org.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Karrie, it's been such a pleasure. I mean, number one, listening to your music myself inadvertently over the years, but also just getting to hear about your career. I've been speaking with Karrie Keyes, the monitor engineer and founder of the organization Sound Girls. Karrie, I'm going to say goodbye, and then we are going to go out on some Pearl Jam. Karrie, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Karrie Keyes: Thank you so much.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Here's some Pearl Jam. Let's listen.