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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, in for Alison Stewart today. Where can you go in the city to meet new people, stay in shape, and learn a new skill that might make you a hit at weddings? Well, for a lot of people, the answer is a dance class. New York City has been the cradle for many of the world's popular dance genres. We're talking swing, salsa, hip-hop, breaking. All can trace some of their routes back to New York. Getting into dance can be tough. What style do you pick? Can you go alone? How do you get over the fear? What stores sell shoes for two left feet?

Here to walk us through it, or maybe chassé through it is world champion dancer and choreographer Robert Royston. His accolades are many. They include eight US Open Swing Dance Championship titles, and six World Country Dance Championship titles. He's been on Broadway. He's choreographed big names like Taylor Swift, and he's also a teacher, running dance classes of all kinds, including a very fun Intro to West Coast Swing class, which I know is fun because I've been attending it for a year. Robert, welcome to the show.

Robert Royston: Hey, what's up, Kousha? How are you doing?

Kousha Navidar: Great. It's great to have you here.

Robert Royston: It was a great intro.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you very much. It came from the heart.

Robert Royston: By the way, I think we have our hook for our millions. We're going to open up a store called Two Left Feet.

Kousha Navidar: Two Left Feet. [laughs]

Robert Royston: Two Left Feet. Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: I love that.

Robert Royston: Two Left Feet Shoes, buy here. Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, do you dance in New York? Do you have a question for Robert? Where do you dance? What style do you like most? What does it offer to you? We're taking all questions about dancing in New York City. Call or text us now. The number is 212-433-9692 that's 212-433-WNYC. If you are a dancer yourself, do you have advice for newcomers, or are you someone who wants to take a dance class but you're intimidated, and you want to ask Robert a question? Give us a call, send us a text. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

Robert, there's this feeling for a lot of people that they associate with taking a dance class or getting onto the dance floor for the first time. It's like, "I'm nervous, I'm anxious, I'm unsure." For you, before you were a world champion, before you were choreographing Taylor Swift, did you feel that way?

Robert Royston: You know, it's interesting. It's a societal thing when it comes to dancing. It's a very vulnerable thing, I think things like singing, public speaking, and dancing are very vulnerable. You kind of can't hide behind anything. For me, personally, I had a moment in my youth when I was at my aunt's wedding. My mother is full-blooded Italian, and my father is full-blooded Irish so I grew up with both sides of my family being very new to America. I remember being at my aunt's wedding, that's on the Italian side, and my zio, which means uncle in Italian, one of my zios, Zio Mario- I was very young, I was, like, eight- teasing one of my cousins about not being able to get up and move a girl, that he was less of a man if he didn't get up and have the ability to dance.

Very early on, I thought men danced. I thought it was a thing you did and if you didn't, you were less manly, which is kind of crazy, right?

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Robert Royston: That kind of goes against the American culture as it's perceived for men dancing. For me, I never had a fear of dancing. I was just like, "Okay, I'll just get up and dance." Now. I didn't formally take dance lessons or any of that kind of stuff until I was 15. I was 15 years old, and a friend of mine's mom said, "Let's go line dancing." We both went, and she taught us one dance. The second dance of the night was the one she taught us. The rest of the time, we're just sitting there.

This lady walks up to me. Her nickname was Grandma Mary, Mary Hendricks. She said, "Do you know how to swing dance? There was a swing song." I said, "No, ma'am, I don't." She said, "Well, I'm going to stand you up and teach you how to swing dance." She taught me how to swing dance, taught me single time, kind of an East Coast jitterbug type thing. I was like, "Well, that was fun."

The next song was a slower song, and she taught me how to swing to that song. It was more triple steps and far more of a pretty traditional East Coast Swing. Of course, I didn't know that that's what it was called at the time. Then I sat down. I was 15. I'm Italian. I had a mustache, I looked older. There were some girls there that were 17, 18 years old. It was kind of like at an elk's lodge. It was a Swiss hall. The age range was really young or really old, relative to me being 15. Everybody else was at bars and this was not a bar. Then these 17, 18-year-old girls walked up to a friend of mine and said, "I saw you know how to dance, do you know how to do two step? Do you know how to waltz? Do you know how to cha cha?" Our answer to each one of them was, "No, but you can teach me." Right? Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: When you're thinking now at this point over your career, how many styles of dance do you know?

Robert Royston: Well over 30.

Kousha Navidar: Wow.

Robert Royston: Yes, well over 30. I did that math pretty fast, that there was a shortage of men who danced. I started taking dance class and then I found out you could compete in it and I'm very competitive. I did football, wrestling, track, martial arts, and all that stuff through high school and junior high school. I was like, "Oh, my God, you can compete in this? This is amazing." Then I got a dance partner and started competing in the late '80s.

Kousha Navidar: Then the rest is history, right?

Robert Royston: The rest is history, that's right.

Kousha Navidar: Broadway's next step.

Robert Royston: Yes. I retired from competitive dancing and six months later I got a Broadway show.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're taking questions about dancing in New York City. We're here with Robert Royston. Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We've got some texts already coming in.

Robert Royston: Oh, really? Nice.

Kousha Navidar: We have some questions for you, Robert.

Robert Royston: Excellent.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to them. Here's a text that says, "I would love to learn to dance but I've never been able to feel loose enough to do it. I get anxious that I'm being judged and it locks my body up. I wonder, do you have any advice for me?"

Robert Royston: That's pretty standard. Most people get really afraid by this. First of all, that caller or that texter should give themselves a little bit of grace and understand that they are not alone in those feelings. Welcome to about 80% to 90% of everybody who ever steps into a dance studio. The hard part as adults is we have to give ourselves the grace to go through the awkward stage. As a kid, when you first learn to ride a bike, the younger you are to learn to ride a bike, the better, because you don't care about the awkward stage. You don't have any historical value of shame or fear of falling or any of that other kind of stuff. That's why kids learn skiing faster and bicycling faster.

The older we get, we attach all this historical value of social shame or pain of falling or those kind of things. We have to understand that to learn anything, we have to go through that awkward stage. You have to tell yourself, "This is okay. It's okay that I feel these things." Instead of trying to prevent you from feeling it, be okay with feeling it. I tell people that being nervous usually means that you care. You care about something. You care about how you're perceived. You care about how somebody else feels, you care. To be nervous means you care about something.

Well, caring is a good thing, right? I kind of try to get my students to flip that. The intention behind the feeling. It's going to be impossible to get rid of the feeling, but if we give a different value to the feeling, then we can approach it a little differently.

The other thing you can do at first at home is there are so many online courses that you can take at first and kind of get a head start. There's lots of online stuff to do. There's beginning online hip-hop, beginning online jazz, beginning online ballet, beginning online West Coast Swing. There's lots of stuff you can go and go, "Let me just see how this feels. Let me get a little head start. Let me start to move a little bit." Does that make sense?

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Robert Royston: Cool. The other thing is, I encourage every student to go up to the teacher when they start a class and say, "This is my first class, and I'm really nervous about dancing. I've wanted to do it my whole life, but I'm really nervous about it." Don't be afraid to speak that, because I know if you come into my class and you say that to me, well, then I'm going to completely embarrass you. No, I'm kidding.

Kousha Navidar: [laughs]

Robert Royston: No, I'm going to keep an eye out for you a little bit. I'm going to be a little bit more encouraging. I'm going to make sure that you understand that, "Hey, this is okay. We're going to get through this together." A great dance teacher is going to help you to get over that hump so that you can get to the learning part because you've got to get over the awkward part to get to the learning part.

Kousha Navidar: That idea of reframing your nerves, I think, is so helpful in dance and in life generally.

Robert Royston: 100%. 100%.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to some callers. We have callers coming in as well.

Robert Royston: Sure. That's so fun.

Kousha Navidar: Natalie in Manhattan. Hey, Natalie, I understand that you like tango. Hey, Natalie, can you hear us? Okay, let's go to Lisa in Westchester. Hey, Lisa, welcome to the show.

Lisa: Hi.

Kousha Navidar: Hi. Can you hear us?

Lisa: I can hear you.

Kousha Navidar: Hi, Lisa. Welcome.

Lisa: Thanks. Hi, Robert.

Robert Royston: Hi. How are you, Lisa?

Lisa: Good.

Kousha Navidar: Lisa, what's your question?

Lisa: My question is, my son is getting married in November, and he and his fiancée, I don't want to say they have two left feet, but they certainly need some lessons. I wanted to get some advice from you as to where-- They just moved into Long Island at the Rockville Centre, so somewhere close to where they are so they don't find an excuse not to go. Additionally, I will be doing my dance with my son. I do dance, but he is 6 foot 3 and I'm 5 foot 4 so we need to come up with a dance where we don't embarrass ourselves. Any suggestions you have as to where to take classes, or if you do that, is there is a way I can contact you?

Kousha Navidar: Lisa, it's such a good question about how to interact with the dreaded but lovely dance at a wedding, as a mother. Go ahead, Robert.

Robert Royston: First of all, I tell people this all the time when it comes. I started my career as a dance teacher when I was 18, 19, 20 years old. I started by doing wedding couples. That's where most dance teachers really get their start, by working with wedding couples. Lots of dance studios. What I would do is recommend they call Arthur Murray or Fred Astaire or any local ballrooms. There are Arthur Murrays and there are Fred Astaires on Long Island. I would call them and ask for their wedding package. Most of them have a wedding package. It's a little cheaper than signing up for a big package of ballroom dance classes.

Wedding packages exist. Most good ballroom studios have some sort of a wedding package. Then usually what the teacher will do is there's a number of dances, from foxtrot to nightclub two step to waltz. There are a number of dances. There's something we call one step that the teacher will assess their abilities and then give them the easiest dance for them to do. Most good studios do that very, very well.

I recently choreographed a wedding dance, but I don't normally do that anymore. It's not something I do much anymore, but there are great studios. I really feel like Arthur Murray and Fred Astaire have super great wedding packages. Also, I know that there are online wedding planners that have guides that step you through all the different parts. There's usually a section for first wedding dance, and there are links. If they were to go to a Long Island wedding planner, there are links to dance studios that they should take, that have wedding packages.

Then as far as your dance with your son, look, I wouldn't worry so much about the height difference. Remember that at a wedding, what everybody wants to see is a son loving his mom. What everybody wants to see is a wedding couple who are in love with each other. That's really what they want to see. You don't want to overthink that moment to where the emotion that's supposed to be happening between two people isn't there because you're too busy worrying about your steps. A dance nightclub or a nice box step for foxtrot for you and your son would be amazing and would be perfect. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

Kousha Navidar: The high differential you can work with.

Robert Royston: So what, right?

Kousha Navidar: Right, exactly.

Robert Royston: Actually, on some level, it's cute and it's fun.

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Robert Royston: Exactly. Being 5ft 8 myself, I've never had that issue.

Kousha Navidar: [laughs]

Robert Royston: You mentioned that you choreographed a couple's wedding dance recently. Just for full disclosure with listeners, I chuckled because that was my wedding dance, and it was lovely. One of the wonderful things about dancing, just to put it out there, you make friends. We made friends with Robert, my wife and I, because we started doing this in preparation for our wedding. It is really lovely.

Robert Royston: My instinct when you asked, was to say, "I don't do that anymore." I feel like I did say that. I haven't done a wedding couple in years and years and years and years and years, as I went on to become more of a professional dancer. The price you pay is different and so on and so forth. Wwe had just clicked so much in class, I was like, "All right, I'm going to do this."

Kousha Navidar: It was very lucky. We were very grateful.

Robert Royston: Yes, we just clicked as friends, my girlfriend as well. The four of us, I think we laughed the entire first lesson. It was so fun.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, the steps did not get in the way of the emotion, which is wonderful.

Robert Royston: Natalie, my advice, go to Arthur Murray or Fred Astaire, look for a wedding package, or go to an online wedding planner and see if they have links to wedding packages for dancing in their area.

Kousha Navidar: Lisa, thanks so much for calling.

Robert Royston: Oh, Lisa, sorry.

Kousha Navidar: Congrats again on the upcoming marriage. A text I want to read. It says, "Don't forget that we have a wonderful belly dance community with teachers and dancers of all ages and sizes." Listeners, we're talking to Robert Royston, world champion dancer choreographer, local teacher in the New York City area. If you have questions about how to get into dance, give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, more calls, more dance advice. Stay with us.

Robert Royston: Awesome.

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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar and we are talking about dancing in New York City, whether you're a beginner, an amateur, or a seasoned dancer and you're looking for ways to get involved in the dance community in the city, if you have questions, we've got Robert Royston here, world championship dancer, local teacher. Listeners, if you have a question for Robert, give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.

Robert, we had a question from a caller, Natalie. We can't get to Natalie right now, but I want to preface what she said and kind of hear your perspective on it. She's a tango dancer, she danced tango for 20 years, but after the pandemic, she hasn't danced for 4 years. Any suggestions for her on how to get back into it?

Robert Royston: Well, there are great studios in Manhattan that teach tango. Some of the greatest tango in the world happens in Manhattan. I know Emmanuel Pierre-Antoine, there are great tango teachers there, we call it EPA Studio. I think there's a Tango NYC. If you were to google Tango NYC, you can see lots of great teachers. Mariana Parma and Mariela Franganillo. There are incredible tango teachers. Oh, God. Walter and Leo. You'll find them if you go Tango NYC.

Kousha Navidar: Tango NYC.

Robert Royston: I think there's an Instagram for it. It might be NYC Tango. It's one of those. Look that up. I think if you want to dance tango, it is so easy to find it in Manhattan. There's tons of it. I would look to those people, Mariela and Mariana, who I mentioned earlier, we produced a show together many years ago called Swango, which was a fusion of Argentine Tango and West Coast Swing. We did it at Queens Theatre In The Park. I got really into the tango community. It's really quite impressive.

Kousha Navidar: Good luck with that, Natalie, and finding your way back into tango. Let's go to Sheila in Huntington, Long Island. Hey, Sheila. Welcome to the show.

Sheila: Hi.

Kousha Navidar: Hi, Sheila.

Sheila: Can you hear me?

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Hi. What's your question?

Sheila: Oh, okay, good. I've been a member of the dance community for a long time. I used to take city lessons and they were all great. Now I'm part of a nonprofit from Dance Long Island that meets every Tuesday night in Greenlawn, Long Island on Pulaski Road at Moose Lodge. It's a lot of fun, the people are friendly, so I'd like to put a plug in for that. I also wanted to mention there's dancecalendar.com that anyone who lives out in Nassau or Suffolk or maybe Queens, too, I think, can look up where there are teachers or dance. It's a great way to find anything in the dance community. There's a website and they have it once a month. It comes out online now.

Robert Royston: Oh, wonderful, dancecalendar.com?

Sheila: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: When you say, when you say swing dancing, is it just general swing dancing? Is it more East Coast Swing, Lindy Hop? Is it just kind of like a swing in the big umbrella of all things swing dancing?

Sheila: I'd say it's more East Coast. We have a once-a-month West Coast lesson from Ellen McCleary, who just sadly moved. We have a little bit of every ballroom, but it's mostly a swing kind of evening.

Kousha Navidar: Super fun. Wonderful. Sheila, thank you so much for making that plug, dancecalendar.com is what I heard, might be helpful for folks out there. Got another caller, Chris in Fairfield, New Jersey. Hey, Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris: Thanks for taking my call. My question is, what do you do if you don't have a partner but you want to learn to dance? Can you still go to those?

Robert Royston: Yes, absolutely. In my classes on Tuesday nights in Manhattan at EPA at 6:30, on my classes, we rotate. Actually, most couples' dance classes rotate. Usually, they're follow-heavy. We are usually desperate for leaders to show up to class. Whether it's salsa, tango, swing, ballroom, or social ballroom, most of the time they're all follow-heavy. I would say into the high 90 percentile, classes rotate. We encourage singles to come for sure, especially single leaders. That's almost always, always needed.

I started teaching in 1988, I was two. That's a joke. I started teaching in 1988, and I think less than 20 times in my entire teaching career have I had more leaders than followers. It's always follow-heavy, so please, Chris, get out there, go find a ballroom dance class, a salsa class, a swing class, a hustle class, whatever it is that you're into, and get out there. We need leaders.

Kousha Navidar: A great way to meet folks, too, because of that rotation you mentioned.

Robert Royston: 100%. 100%.

Kousha Navidar: We've got a text here. It says, "Hi, I have a talented older friend, a healthy, vibrant 70-year-old. Used to couple dance and compete. Her husband and partner died. Any suggestions for seniors?

Robert Royston: Yes, same. Exact same as what I was just saying to Chris. There are senior-only ballroom classes and stuff. Certain studios will have senior-specific classes. Most of those are franchise studios. The independent studios don't always have that. There's so much about in the city, rec centers. The woman earlier said the Moose Lodge. Sometimes Elk's Lodge, Moose Lodge, and VFW halls have a calendar, a lot of times, of what they're doing for seniors.

70, I would like to say, is not old. If you're 70 years old and you're a good mover-- I have a student in my Tuesday night class who comes, who's in their 80s and moves great and rotates with all the people that are in their 30s. You get to a class, whether a leader or follower, they will rotate. That's what I would recommend that they do.

Kousha Navidar: There's a text here that says, "Shoutout to West African dance teachers in the metro area. Alvin Ailey Extension, Mark Morris, and Cumbe Studios all offer amazing classes.

Oh, interesting question here for a text. Very practical. "What classes should I sign up for? I'm a beginner, 68 years old, female, alone. I would love to dance a few times a week and learn swing dancing, and what shoes do I need? Thanks, Rhonda." That shoes element seems especially interesting.

Robert Royston: Right. At first, I tell people, wear comfortable shoes. Don't worry about getting specific dance shoes until you know if you're really, really into it because dance shoes sometimes can be expensive. Wait and find out if you like it. Just wear a comfortable shoe. I have plenty of people in my beginning class on Tuesdays that are wearing tennis shoes. One of the things I wanted to touch on today is when we talk about dancing in New York, and I want to get involved in dancing, and this will go to her question, is, "What type of dancing do I do?" It really has to be, what are your goals?

Like with the West African dancing, the shoutout that happened, when it comes to that, do I want dance because I want to feel like a performer, even if I'm never going to perform? Do I want dance for fitness?

Michelle Barbour at Broadway Dance Center, Stacey Webster, many great teachers at Broadway Dance Center, but if I'm with Michelle Barbour in her class, at the end of the class, I'm dancing this contemporary piece or this jazz piece, and I get to feel like what I see when I watch a Broadway show or when I watch a piece at Lincoln Center or something like that. I'm never going to be on stage, let's say as the hobbyist, I'm not going to be on stage at Lincoln Center, but I get to feel what they feel like. It's a very internal, very like self-expression. I get to feel that. In that instance, that's very, very me. I go, "All right, that's what I want. That's what I want to feel." Well, then you should go to studios like Broadway Dance Center. You should go to some of the open classes to the public at Ailey.

Kousha Navidar: How about for somebody like the texter that we just got who says, "I would love to dance a few times a week--"

Robert Royston: That's what I was going to head to. Then if you're like, "Well, I want it to be social." There's the "me" thing, and then there's the social side. "I want it to be social. I want to go out a couple times a week. I want to meet people. I want to social dance." Okay, well, then you should determine what music you like. Do you like a variety of music or, "What I really want is standards"? "I like the Frank Sinatra over Justin Bieber." You've got to weigh those things. "I really like Latin music." Find the music that you love, because if you don't love the music, you're not going to love the dance.

Once you find the music you love, then you can find the dance that fits to that music. If it's swing dancing, and when you think swing, West Coast Swing is done to contemporary music and blues and some jazz for sure, but it's far more done to contemporary music where, like, Lindy Hop is going to be done more to Benny Goodman and stuff like that, or some of the '50s music. Depending on what you're looking for musically, then you seek that class out. You can call an EPA or you can call an Arthur Murray or a Fred Astaire. You can be like, "Hey, I really wanted to know, do you have any--" You could call it retro swing if you want. You can call Lindy Hop if you want, East Coast, or you can say, "I would like swing dancing but to more contemporary music."

Then once you get in that class, you'll see at things like NYC WCS, which is the New York City West Coast Swing Instagram page, full calendars of everything that's being taught. I think there's an NYC Lindy page. You know what I mean? You can see everything that's going on with Lindy Hop. First determine what kind of music you like. Does that make sense? Then find the dance that fits that music.

Kousha Navidar: Running out of time here. I just want to give a few more texts that came through. It says, "Barefoot Boogie is a monthly freestyle dance in Brooklyn." If you like hip-hop music, if you like all different kinds, freestyle might be a good fit for you.

Robert Royston: Great name.

Kousha Navidar: That is a great name. Then here we have. "Hi. Alisha in Queens, I love Latin dance. I lived in Argentina and learned tango and salsa, but in the US, I can never find guys willing to dance. When I taught small, informal classes, I ended up always dancing the men's part so the all-female classes were able to get the hang of it. Where are all the men at?" How do you think about leading and following here, Robert?

Robert Royston: I think, lots of times follows become leaders just out of necessity, because they would like to dance, but there are not a lot of leaders. They're like, "Okay, fine, I'll just jump on over there." That's really at your discretion, whether you want to lead or whether you want to follow, what role you want to play. If you're like, "I'm learning a bunch of follow rules, but there's nobody here to lead me. I'm switching to the other side because there's obviously plenty of--" I find joy in doing both. A lot of joy in doing both. That caller, the perfect example of going, "Okay, I'm going to start to lead." There is so much salsa in the city, so much salsa in the city. Just google Salsa Classes, New York City. There is tons of salsa in New York City.

Kousha Navidar: For salsa, that is a great intro dance that you would suggest?

Robert Royston: Salsa is great. Salsa is a super good, easy dance to do. There are lots of really great lessons all throughout Manhattan and in Brooklyn and the Bronx, like in Queens, great salsa dancers. It's a very good gateway [unintelligible 00:25:36] dance stroke, wonderful.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: We've got about a minute left. Any other final advice you'd like to give? Anything else that you'd like to plug?

Robert Royston: Yes, I have my classes every Tuesday night at Emmanuel Pierre-Antoine beginning West Coast Swing. If you've never danced West Coast Swing in your life, Tuesday nights at 6:30. Come there, it's really, really fun. I have a dance convention that's also super fun. If you've never done a weekender where you go to a weekend of a dance convention called Swingle Bell Rock, which is a holiday swing dance party that you come to, it's in Morristown, New Jersey, and we have a blast there. We have about 400 people that come. We do all kinds of holiday stuff for the weekend, which is great. Follow me on Instagram.

Kousha Navidar: And get out there and dance, right?

Robert Royston: Yes, absolutely. Listen, I promise you it'll improve your life. I promise you it'll improve your life.

Robert Royston: Well, we've got to put a pin in it there, but we so appreciate you coming. Robert Royston, world championship dancer, local dance instructor, thank you so much for joining us.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you so much, man. We'll see you on Tuesday night.

Robert Royston: Absolutely. Hopefully, we'll see some of the folks listening as well.

Coming up, we'll speak with Indigenous artist Rose B. Simpson, whose sculptures are currently on view in Madison Square Park and Inwood Hill Park That's next after news headlines. Stay with us.

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