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David Remnick: No Labels is a would-be political party that you may not have heard of yet. They haven't announced to their candidates, but they've secured a considerable amount of funding. They're working behind the scenes to get on the ballot across the country. No Labels is pitched as a centrist movement to appeal to disaffected voters in both major parties. Now, the history of third-party candidates from Martin Van Buren to Teddy Roosevelt, Horace Greeley to Ross Perot is an interesting one. No one running from that position has ever won, and yet third parties can have real consequences. There are many to this day who believe that Ralph Nader cost Al Gore the election in 2000 or that Ross Perot spoiled things for George H. W. Bush in 1992, and that led to the Clinton presidency.

At this early point, Joe Biden and Donald Trump seem the likely nominees for their parties, yet polls tell us that they are profoundly unpopular with voters, so who knows? A third party could have an outsized impact. One of the leaders of No Labels is Pat McCrory, the former governor of North Carolina. I spoke to him recently to try to understand what role this new party, if that's what it is, intends to play in our political future.

Pat McCrory: No Labels is not planning to stick around as a third permanent political party, nor after we select candidates, we are not going to run the campaign. That will be up to the candidates

David Remnick: Which leads me to ask, who is No Labels?

Pat McCrory: They're volunteers with a very small staff. I'm a volunteer, by the way. I accept no pay. It's a grassroots effort of both grassroots people in all 50 States and also former and current elected officials and community activists like Ben Chavis, who was a big Biden supporter and used to work for Martin Luther King and actually served seven years in prison in North Carolina, in which my predecessor gave him a pardon.

David Remnick: It seems to me that overall what this is is a center-right impulse.

Pat McCrory: I don't know where you get that, center-right--

David Remnick: Well, tell me what it is. Where's your juice coming from? Where's your money coming from? What's your view of how you can succeed with this lineup?

Pat McCrory: Well, we're setting up organizations in every state, just like Pro did. Just like the parties do. We're brand new. We're starting from scratch.

David Remnick: I understand.

Pat McCrory: Where the money comes from is from all over the nation. People are asking us about the money, but the fact of the matter is, there are some people who do give money and they're afraid of retribution, for fear, if their name is used, there will be retribution from the Democratic and Republican establishment, which will attack them. [crosstalk] That's why their names are allowed to be protected in the current system. Once the campaign starts, everything will be based upon the legality of how campaigns are run in the United States of America.

David Remnick: Give me some examples of candidates that might fit the bill for you for No Labels.

Pat McCrory: I'm reluctant to mention any names because we haven't started that process yet. I know the media has talked about some names. They have been elected officials that have been involved in our meetings. We have members of our problem-solving caucus that we think will be very active, but they're even reluctant some of them, to get involved in the presidential process until after the primary because of fear of retribution. By the way, our parties have a monopoly on "How dare you go against the party's structure. We will punish you for that."

David Remnick: If you don't give me any potential candidates, and obviously the media asks you, it's a logical question, what does an alternative type of candidate look like?

Pat McCrory: Most likely, we will have both a Republican and Democrat on the ticket. That's our goal right now is Republican and Democratic on our ticket. I anticipate someone who has leadership skills, someone who has a history of compromise, someone who is good on the campaign trail, someone who might come in from military experience, business experience, or leadership in political experience. We do not think we're going to have a shortage of people who would be interested because if you have 60% of the people dissatisfied with what the parties are going to present to us, if it stays the same, and again, I hope it doesn't, and then we'll take those names to the convention in Dallas in June.

David Remnick: Governor, with respect, with real respect, you're not telling me much. You're giving me the most generic outline of a candidate somewhere in the giant, broad middle who doesn't happen to be Donald Trump or Joe Biden.

Pat McCrory: That's correct.

David Remnick: [laughs] Fantastic. Are you looking for a conservative? Is overall somebody you're looking for is a conservative?

Pat McCrory: We're looking for people who can work together and understand that when you have a divided country, you have to compromise to get things done.

David Remnick: Now, when you've had third-party candidates in the past, they had some ideological purpose or meaning, whether it was Ross Perot or Ralph Nader or Jill Stein, we've had them. You're telling me very, very little that's specific about what you want that person to be politically or ideologically.

Pat McCrory: We're going to be coming out with what we call the common sense agenda, where you'll see, and potential candidates will see where we want them to take stands on.

David Remnick: Nobody runs against common sense. Common sense is a pretty generalized phrase to be charitable. Where are you on abortion? Where are you on guns?

Pat McCrory: We'll be rolling out our agenda in July, is our time goal for doing that. I've played the game, I've been played by the game, and I'm exposing the game. What we're not going to be doing is trapped by the game and then sabotaged by the game of the two systems that set you up for failure. That's what's happening right now in the political game of politics. We're doing a very strategic rollout and a very studious rollout of the issues of the day, and then we'll do the same thing and see who's the best fit for the people of America. We're listening to the people of America.

David Remnick: I hear you, but a politician, a statesman, believes in something. What we're not talking about in this conversation, other than common sense and the most, most general and generic qualities, is what No Labels believes in other than Donald Trump is untenable. I think what I'm getting from you is that Joe Biden is too much to the left and too old.

Pat McCrory: It's not what No Labels believes in, the American people are saying that they don't want either Donald Trump or Joe Biden. What we're doing right now is setting up the infrastructure in all 50 states, which is very hard because some of the political parties are trying to sabotage our efforts. We're getting on the ballot in hopefully all 50 states. I think we're on 7 or 8 ballots now. We hope to be on 20 ballots by the end of the year. The candidates themselves are going to have to get on 13 or 14 ballots according to the laws because we have different laws in every state. I'm telling you right now the political parties want to keep their monopoly or duopoly. They're trying to make it hard for a legitimate effort to get on the ballots in a lot of states. That's where our major priority is, because we're wasting our time if we don't have the leverage of getting on the ballots to possibly win a race. That's where we're putting our effort and our money right now.

David Remnick: The Republican party chooses its candidate. It's a convoluted system. The Democratic party also chooses a candidate through a combination of primaries, caucuses, and then a convention.

Pat McCrory: That's correct.

David Remnick: There is at least some measure of democratic elevation and choice there. I think we can agree. How are you going to choose a--

Pat McCrory: I've been in that measure before.

David Remnick: Well, that's fair. How are you going to choose a candidate?

Pat McCrory: We're going to have, first, a search committee and then, most likely, a nominations committee, and then we'll bring names to our convention. We're going to have convention delegates from every state.

David Remnick: Polls tell us certain things about what in fact, the American people do want. The American people want abortion rights. Look, this is the polls. The American people want gun control. Certainly, in greater measure than we have now and a great deal else, what issues would a New Labels candidate respond to?

Pat McCrory: We will be speaking on social issues. We will be speaking on financial issues. We will be speaking on foreign policy issues.

David Remnick: What will you say?

Pat McCrory: We also have to give some leeway--

David Remnick: I know you'll speak on these issues, but what have we got to say?

Pat McCrory: Excuse me. We have to also give some leeway to the candidates that we end up selecting. We're not also going to play the game where each political party has a detailed platform, which then the candidates just ignore. In a lot of these issues, people are somewhere in the middle on those. The problem is the two parties are on the fringes with no compromise because you can't get through a primary if you dare compromise on some of these issues.

David Remnick: What are the beliefs that you have that you will not betray?

Pat McCrory: I'm not on your time period. Sorry, because we're putting all our efforts right now-

David Remnick: You think I'm rushing you?

Pat McCrory: -in getting on the ballot.

David Remnick: You think I'm rushing you and I'm being unfair?

Pat McCrory: No. Not at all. No, I have no problem with you asking the question, but I'm also telling you I'm not on that timeline to be able to answer that question as of yet.

David Remnick: Pat McCrory is a leader of the third party called No Labels and a former governor of North Carolina. The group is going to release what they're describing as a common sense agenda on Monday, and it's at an event with Joe Manchin and Governor Jon Huntsman of Utah. Joining me now is staff writer Sue Halpern, who recently reported on No Labels for The New Yorker. Sue, I have to admit, I was very frustrated and came away from that conversation not knowing a hell of a lot about what No Labels has on its mind. Pat McCrory kept pointing out just how unpopular a Trump-Biden rematch is among American voters. That is true. We've never seen such poor favorability for a presidential race, but where does that leave them?

Sue Halpern: It is true that people don't want to see a rematch, but that doesn't mean people want a third party. Americans are very fickle when you ask them this question. You asked people in 2016, "Do you want Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump as the candidates?" and most people said no. When Ronald Reagan was running, only 37% of people thought he should run for a second term. Americans are like that.

David Remnick: Third-party candidates have not done well for a very long time in American politics. Traditionally what they do is they peel off some votes from one side or another, and they can play a spoiler role in a given election, certainly, Ross Perot did. What do you think is really going on here?

Sue Halpern: I think that the idea here is that they are really opposed to the Democrats who are interested in public policy that helps the middle class, that helps the poor. I think that they're really interested in blocking Democrats as opposed to electing Republicans, so they can say, we don't like Trump-

David Remnick: In the end, what's the difference? In other words, if a third-party candidacy conspires to and succeeds in sinking Joe Biden, well, the Republican will be elected, and that inevitably it seems at this point anyway, would be Donald Trump.

Sue Halpern: Yes, I totally agree with you, but I think that's why it's completely a disingenuous activity that they're engaged in. I really think that it comes out of this idea that they don't want Democrats whose basic ideology is that we need to raise taxes to fund social welfare. I think that's something that they really oppose.

David Remnick: How are they doing in getting on ballots around the country, Sue? You reported in your piece that they're on the ballot in just four states now.

Sue Halpern: In one of those states, they're being challenged, and in another state in Maine, they got a cease and desist letter from the Secretary of State. They were telling people if they de-sign this petition to get on the ballot that was all that they were doing, but in fact what they were doing was giving up their party affiliation, which meant that they couldn't vote in either the Democratic or the Republican primary. The people who were signing it did not know that, so that was a little underhanded.

David Remnick: In my, I have to admit, very frustrating interview with the former governor of North Carolina, he wouldn't fess up to being interested in anybody in particular as a possible third-party candidate, but Joe Manchin has reportedly expressed interest in seeking the presidency, even though his own Senate seat is in eternal jeopardy because of the nature of the state he's from, from West Virginia.

Sue Halpern: Joe Manchin has been floated as a possibility, Kyrsten Sinema has been floated as a possibility, Larry Hogan, but maybe only as the Vice President. Manchin and Sinema are interesting characters. They are the most conservative Democrats. They represent the ideology of No Labels better than anybody else. They are people who take a lot of money from the fossil fuel industry, for instance. They take a lot of money from private equity. After Sinema was basically responsible for tanking Biden's Build Back Better program policy, she got a great infusion of cash from private equity. She was playing hardball for them and making sure that the Democrat's idea of taxing the wealthy didn't go forward.

David Remnick: Where's their money coming from?

Sue Halpern: Ah, there's the $70 million question. They are funded primarily by people in private equity, by people in finance. They have a lot of billionaires funding them, including people like Nelson Peltz, who was a big Trump funder, including Harlan Crow.

David Remnick: The billionaire who was so generous to Clarence Thomas, as ProPublica has uncovered.

Sue Halpern: Yes, he is very generous. It's really being driven a lot by this woman named Nancy Jacobson, who's married to a guy named Mark Penn. Mark Penn used to be a pollster and advisor to Bill Clinton, got shut out from Hillary Clinton and certainly from Obama, and got a little angry, I think at the Democratic party for not embracing him and them.

David Remnick: Also moved well to the right of where he even was as a centrist.

Sue Halpern: Exactly. During Trump's impeachment hearings, Mark Penn was one of his advisors. He was seen going in and out of the White House.

David Remnick: What's the connection between the Harris Poll and No labels?

Sue Halpern: The Harris Poll is a company that was purchased by Mark Penn's holding company. It's a very, very large, very lucrative company. It's called Stagwell. Stagwell owns Harris Polls. Harris Polls is the pollster for No Labels. That's an insider, little family dealing there. Some people think the whole-- The Lincoln Project folks, Rick Wilson thinks the whole thing is just some kind of grift that Mark Penn is pulling. The No Labels people have raised something like $70 million to do this. They're going to have a nominating convention, they're going to do all sorts of things, but the one reason why I think that they haven't put forward a candidate is once they do that, then they are required to do all the things that political parties do. At the moment, they're operating as a pack essentially.

They don't have to say who their donors are, for instance, and it does end up looking very much like a grift. I really do think that it has more to do with the kinds of policies that a Manchin and a Sinema have tried to block. Maybe it's possible that in an earlier day, we would call No Labels people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal, but I'm not even convinced that they're socially liberal. They're certainly more socially liberal than people who are against abortion and people who want to see public schools funded and public libraries funded, but they're definitely fiscal conservatives. That's just a given.

David Remnick: Sue Halpern, thanks so much.

Sue Halpern: Thank you, David.

David Remnick: Sue Halpern is a staff writer and you can find her piece, What is No Labels Trying To Do? at newyorker.com

[00:18:45] [END OF AUDIO]

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