[music]
Melissa Harris-Perry: Hey, folks. It's The Takeaway. As always, we are glad to have you with us. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry.
Earlier this month, Seattle became the first city in the United States to ban discrimination on the basis of caste. Now, caste is not an official designation within the United States, and discrimination based on the caste system was banned in India in 1948. As we all know, prejudice and discrimination, they can be sticky and caste continues to affect social, political, and economic life in cities where substantial portions of residents hail from parts of the world where formally lawful caste systems continue to have residual effects.
Prachi Patankar: Caste categorizes basically human beings into hundreds of occupation-based caste groups that are predetermined by birth. It is a hierarchical division of laborers who are graded one above the other in this society. They're basically cemented with designated occupations and then marriages. My name is Prachi Patankar and I'm an activist and a writer.
Melissa Harris-Perry: Prachi comes from a subjugated caste farming family, and she identifies as Brahmins. It's a collective term referring to all those in subjugated caste communities.
Prachi Patankar: Brahmins occupied the topmost level in this caste hierarchy by birthright. They are supposed to perform the purest or quote "intellectual or clean forms of labor." Dalits are the lowest caste, they're formerly known as untouchables. They're the most historically oppressed caste category. Because the decision-making power is still being held by most dominant caste groups, the caste system and caste discrimination keeps going.
People know each other's caste because in villages, people know because of the way they would live and people know each other. Even in urban areas, because of the last names, caste is really easily identified. Many of the Indian Americans are still traveling, coming from India, and most of them have been dominant caste groups. Caste has been exported with these communities into the United States as well. The caste is very much alive. Caste system and caste exploitation is still very much alive.
[music]
Melissa Harris-Perry: Kshama Sawant is an Indian American economist who served on the city council of Seattle for nearly a decade. She proposed the anti-caste ban and it passed with a vote of six to one on the Seattle City Council.
Kshama Sawant: The law, not surprisingly, already outlaws discrimination on the basis of age or gender or religious affiliation or sexual orientation characteristics of that kind. This new ordinance says that caste will now be one of those categories, meaning you can't discriminate somebody on the basis of caste. The principle mechanism that it offers you is the right to use this law in the courts and sue the corporation or the workplace where you faced this discrimination. It's also in other situations.
For example, if you are somebody who faced discrimination that has been outlawed under Seattle's law as a renter, and you're trying to sign a rental agreement with a landlord who is discriminating against you, in that situation then the law also offers you the right to go to court and sue that landlord.
Melissa Harris-Perry: Now, despite the win, there was resistance to the ban from some Hindu Americans who criticized it as opening the door to potentially anti-Hindu discrimination. Nikunj Trivedi is president of the Coalition of Hindus of North America, and he shared this statement with The Takeaway.
Nikunj Trivedi: This law is inherently discriminatory because, unlike other categories such as race, gender, religion, ancestry, et cetera, it singles out the South Asian community based on faulty data and groups that have openly called for dismantling of Hinduism. It seems that Seattle city is also openly saying that South Asians require more monitoring and special laws versus all other groups.
Melissa Harris-Perry: Seattle City Council Member Sara Nelson cast the lone no vote for the caste anti-discrimination bill. Council Member Nelson sent a statement to The Takeaway. It reads in part, "I voted against this legislation because it links caste discrimination with Hinduism and people of South Asian descent, and we received hundreds of emails from opponents who argued that enshrining caste as a protected class here in Seattle will perpetuate racist and colonial stereotypes that serve only to generate more anti-Hindu discrimination."
To better understand this first-of-its-kind anti-discrimination ban, I spoke with Kshama Sawant, who's a member of the Seattle City Council, and with Prachi Patankar community activist and writer.
[music]
Melissa Harris-Perry: Council Member Sawant, what does this have to do with Seattle Washington?
Kshama Sawant: Though the caste system, as Prachi was saying, really originated thousands of years ago, it still is prevalent for the same reasons that racism and sexism are prevalent. Just like Malcolm X said, "You can't have capitalism without racism." Similarly, I think you can explain why caste discrimination is now a very serious issue in the United States because as the concentrations of South Asian immigrant community members, especially as workers, and you see this a lot in the tech sector as well, has increased.
You are seeing caste discrimination also being manifested. In fact, statistical studies like the one done by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace show that significant proportions of oppressed caste community members who have immigrated from South Asia experienced caste discrimination at the hands of their dominant caste South Asian bosses. In fact, hundreds of oppressed caste workers in the tech sector have spoken up courageously, openly about this. Some of them anonymously, but some of them openly. It runs the gamut of every corporation, tech corporation you can think of. That's why we fought for and won this legislation.
Melissa Harris-Perry: Now, Council Member Sawant, can you help to make this real for our Takeaway listeners? Did you all hear what kind of testimony or letters did you receive about where and maybe incidents of this kind of discrimination occurring?
Kshama Sawant: We have had hundreds of oppressed caste workers speak up about the discrimination they face. It ranges from really serious forms of discrimination like being denied raises and promotion, but also on a day-to-day basis being targeted, being singled out just because of your cast, not because of your workplace performance. For example, being excluded from meetings, being the target of derogatory remarks or slurs.
I think the way it manifests itself, caste discrimination in the workplace doesn't look any different than what people of color, workers of color, or women workers face in the workplace where you might have sexualized references or being treated less than male workers simply because you're a woman. It's that way in which it manifests itself. Given this widespread evidence, it was important to begin acting on it and really this has become an extraordinarily historic victory for not only oppressed caste workers but workers and working people as a whole who desire to live in a society free of discrimination and oppression.
Melissa Harris-Perry: We're taking a quick break right here. Back with more on the ban on caste system discrimination in Seattle right after this.
[music]
Melissa Harris-Perry: We're back and still talking about the first-of-its-kind ban on discrimination based on caste out of Seattle's city council. Council Member Sawant, talk to me about capacity to move beyond Seattle, how you see this work expanding.
Kshama Sawant: This enormously historic victory has become a beacon for activists and working people across the United States and really internationally. My office is getting emails from oppressed caste workers and also other workers in India who are against the caste system and really want to do something to fight against it. Likewise in the United States, we have heard from so many workers who are so inspired and energized by this victory and want to win as well.
I think the primary response to this question about how this can spread in other cities is really to share the lessons from Seattle, how we won this. We didn't win this because it's a good idea, and everybody agreed with us. No, in fact, we won this despite strenuous opposition, not only from the Hindu right-wing but also from the Democratic establishment in Seattle. One of the reasons this movement was so powerful is because it united oppressed caste activists and workers, not just tech workers, but also other workers. It also United dominant caste Hindus. It brought together Muslims and Sikhs. It brought together socialist alternative in my organization and also union members. In fact, one of the unions that strongly supported this legislation is the Alphabet Workers Union, the union that represents Google workers. It became a rallying cry for a phenomenal and overwhelming majority of people who want to see major social progress being made. In fact, if we want to be a progressive society regardless of what race or nationality, or gender we are, then we are all in this together to win this legislation.
Melissa Harris-Perry: Prachi, I want to follow up on what we were hearing from the council member here about-- this was not about everyone holding hands and singing into a sunset of agreement, but that there was very real opposition. Can you also talk us through some of what the discourse of that opposition was and give us some of those counter-arguments that you made?
Prachi Patankar: The resistance that we have seen to the demand for banning caste discrimination is coming from the more Hindu nationalist-focused ideologies in Indian American community. Those are organizations that are very much in support of the Hindu fundamentalists in the nationalist government in India and they are saying that these policies are Hindu-phobic. Just like calling out racism in the United States just doesn't make somebody anti-white, calling outcasts discrimination does not make anybody anti-Hindu.
The reality is that even though many have converted to other religions because of the extreme oppression and persecution that the community has faced for being deemed untouchable, for being outcast from the religion itself, but there are a big section of the community is still identifies as Hindus. The [unintelligible 00:11:57] community and other oppressors communities are saying that caste system is alive and well in the Indian society, whether it's Hinduism, whether it's Islam, whether it's Christianity, and that this cast based discrimination, even though it arose from Hinduism, that it continues everywhere within the society and now it's in the United States as well.
These are the arguments that we are making and Hindu nationalist right-wing organizations and people, they want to paint a sanitize picture of the caste system. They want to say the caste system does exist, but it is a system where diverse caste are coexisting together harmoniously. This is just simply not true. This false claim of Hindu phobia is really a trope of victimhood that the Hindu nationalists have put forward. It has been being manipulated by them to push forward a very Hindu nationalist agenda. The anti caste movement is made up of people across caste, across religions, across faiths, and also non-Indian community has also joined the struggle as well. This is an important struggle that's going to continue.
Melissa Harris-Perry: Prachi Patankar is a community activist and writer, and Kshama Sawant is a member of the Seattle City Council. Thank you both for taking out the time to spend a little time with The Takeaway today.
Kshama Sawant: Thank you so much.
Prachi Patankar: Thank you so much.
[music]
Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.
New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.
