Melissa Harris-Perry: This is The Takeaway and I'm Melissa Harris-Perry.

[music - Celia Cruz]

Melissa Harris-Perry: What you're hearing is the unforgettable voice of Afro-Latina, Cubana and Salsera, Celia Cruz.

[music - Celia Cruz]

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now, she recorded the anti-racist song, Bemba Colorá, in 1966. That, along with her signature sound,-

[music - Celia Cruz]

Melissa Harris-Perry: -made her a beloved champion of so many Afro-Latinos in the diaspora. With the exception of Cruz, how many other Afro-Latinos can you name? How many can your children name? This is why, in part, representation matters. It matters so that people feel seen, heard, known. Many Afro-Latinos are picking up the call to make sure the next generation sees representations of themselves in one of the first places they experience images and stories, children's books. I spoke with-

Sulma Arzu-Brown: Sulma Arzu-Brown, a proud Garifuna Afro-Latina woman author of Bad Hair Does Not Exist, Pelo Malo, No Existe.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I asked Sulma to tell me more about the book Pelo Malo, No Existe.

Sulma Arzu-Brown: Pelo Malo, No Existe was illustrated by my best friend, another Garifuna woman Afro-Latina from Honduras. Her name is Isidra Sabio, and together, we just wanted to change this horrible colloquial term that described the thick textured hair of many of our children, terms that we ourselves grew up hearing, which is 'pelo malo', which means 'bad hair'. We believed that it was an opportunity for us to start offsetting the messages about our communities that are too often seen in the media. Even from the illustrations to the simple education such as alternate terms for hair so that no adults or child ever has to use the term pelo malo. Phrases and words like short, long, straight, curly, they're very simple to take on and eliminate the term 'bad hair'.

Melissa Harris-Perry: That language of pelo malo, or bad hair but also of good hair, because even if you say good hair, it always presumes pelo malo is the alternate. I feel like this is so central to the experience of little Black girls, whether we are Afro-Latina or whether we are Black girls hailing from the diaspora or little Black girls hailing from the US South. Why is hair so critical?

Sulma Arzu-Brown: You know what, hair can tell a story of who we are, tells a beautiful story of where we come from and our ancestors. Part of the process of colonialism is to try and erase what lives in us and actually grows through our scalp. You're absolutely right in saying that this book is not just for Latinos. It was literally written for the global Black diaspora so we can remember how to respect one another and teach the world how to respect us as well. This book was also written for those that do not look like us, that are not Black in color or Nubian, to get to understand the beauty of the Black experience.

The way we carry ourselves within our families, the way we give gifts to one another, the way grandma passes down a cupcake recipe to her granddaughter. All of this beauty is depicted in this book, and again, it's definitely about making sure that we are telling our stories from our perspectives and how we see each other and one another, in hopes of the world giving themselves that opportunity to get to see us in the light that we have always been.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Sulma, tell me some of your story. Tell me about the intersections of Latin identity and Blackness where you live.

Sulma Arzu-Brown: Yes. Right now I am in The Bronx, but I wasn't always here. I was born in Honduras and raised in a small Garifuna village and the Garifuna people represent about 5% of the people in Honduras. Our "motherland" is actually Saint Vincent and the Grenadines where the Garifuna people were created. We are a mixture of the Arawak Indians, the Carib that were in the land and actually slaves that came to the island of Saint Vincent, because Saint Vincent was actually considered a neutral territory between the French and the English. The slaves even from Africa and from Barbados would come in so that they would be free. The mixture of all of these people created a brand new breed of people, which is the Garifuna people.

Let me fast-forward it years later on why I came to this country. My mom and dad actually ventured to this country before my brother and I did. The reason why my mom came here because, in Honduras, we are still today dealing with the same discriminatory tactics that we dealt years ago. My mom came to this country because she was overlooked for a promotion because she was Black, Garifuna, and a woman. Her boss literally told her, "You have family in the United States, I advise you to move over there because there you will get the promotions that you deserve based on your qualifications."

She came here, graduated college and so did my father. My brother and I both came six years later, and we are also successful college graduates, but I promised myself that my children will never have to go through this. My life's journey is to create tools of empowerment and have these conversations to make sure that my mom's story does not repeat itself. What will repeat itself is that strength that our ancestors placed in us for survival, which is the reason why the Garifuna people, still to this day, speak our own language because we were never enslaved.

The slaves normally take on the language of the master, and we have our own language. Because I was born in Honduras and many Garifunas are in Guatemala, Belize, and Nicaragua, we identify as Afro-Latinos, with the exception of our brothers and sisters in Belize because it is the only English-colonized country.

Melissa Harris-Perry: As you expand the knowledge, the understanding the consciousness of folks to even understand the global nature of Blackness, why does that matter for kids to see that in the books that they read as small people?

Sulma Arzu-Brown: It matters because I think that that's how we have survived through history, is telling our story and reminding our children how strong they are, how important their contribution to the now is. In order for you to understand what that is, you must understand the family members, your ancestors that came before you that have already made history, because there might be something inside of you. For example, if a child is hungry to be an entrepreneur and have her own business, like myself, who is an entrepreneur, I'm wondering where's that coming from? That's when I found out that my grandmother had the first supermarket in our small town of Santa Fe, Colón.

That's when I found out that my grandfather ran his own business as well. There's a history of community, there's a history of entrepreneurship and understanding where that came from. You realize that, "Wow, I can breathe, I am not different." This has happened in my story before and it helps take them to a whole another level. When I wrote the book, Bad Hair Does Not Exist, Pelo Malo, No Existe, I can literally mark the difference between my kids' grades in school when they didn't know who they were and the power that lived inside of them, versus when I wrote the book.

They were able to breathe and say, "I can do this." Not only were they able to breathe, but they became leaders in the space of anti-bullying. They started educating the young vanilla Latinas where they would whip their hair to the back and they would tell my daughter, "Oh, you see, Seleni, you can't do this with your hair, you can't whip it back like us." Seleni goes, "Well, that's okay because I pad, baby, I pad and this is how we do it." She started padding her curly afro in ways of educating. It's so powerful and she got a scholarship to an incredible high school because she didn't have to worry about who she was. The teachers knew that she would concentrate on her education because this is not a lost child trying to find herself, which is why we have to continue to write our books, now even more than ever, when our history is literally being erased. I'm calling for more authors, more storytellers, more humans like ourselves to write your story. Our kids need it and it is important for not just our survival, but it is important because we have to thrive and we have to honor the sacrifices of our ancestors in the process.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Sulma Arzu-Brown, author of Pelo Malo, No Existe. Gracias. Thank you for joining The Takeaway.

Sulma Arzu-Brown: [Spanish language]

Melissa Harris-Perry: I also spoke with Charles Esperanza-

Charles Esperanza: I am the author-illustrator of Boogie Boogie, Y’all.

Melissa Harris-Perry: -and Yesenia Moises.

Yesenia Moises: Author-illustrator of Stella’s Stellar Hair.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I asked Yesenia to tell me about her book and the story of Stella’s Stellar Hair.

Yesenia Moises: Stella’s Stellar Hair is a story about a young Black girl who goes on an interplanetary journey across the solar system to get help with her hair from her nine fabulous space aunties.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Afro-Latina futurism.

Yesenia Moises: I guess you can say that. Yes. That sounds pretty on the nose.

Melissa Harris-Perry: In a children's book.

Yesenia Moises: Yes.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Give us just a little bit more on the plot. Who are these aunties and what is it that they are doing with Stella?

Yesenia Moises: Stella is looking for a new hairstyle because it's the day of the big star little gala, a very cool interplanetary party that's happening to celebrate the solar system. Her mom tries to do something, but she doesn't like it and so she wants to have something really special for this big day. Her mom suggests that she go to see her aunties across the solar system and her aunt's all live on the different planets. Each of the aunties has their own unique way of styling their hair that's actually based around the planet's atmospheres.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I asked Charles how his book, Boogie Boogie, Y’all, was not only a celebration of his hometown The Bronx, but also of the diaspora.

Charles Esperanza: Boogie Boogie, Y’all is basically a love letter to The Bronx and graffiti art. Basically, it came from me just wanting to explore more of my hometown and the culture that has come from that. I'm a teacher, so a lot of my students didn't really understand where graffiti came from. One day, I saw an amazing graffiti piece outside of a community center I teach. I took a picture of it and brought it into class and showed it to the students, and they were just amazed by it. I told them, "What do you think of it?" They're like, "This is great. Where did you find this? Is this in a museum or something?" I'm like, "No, it's right across the street from the community center."

Right then and there, I realized that they maybe didn't take in as much as they should about their community and the art that's around them. That spawned the idea for Boogie Boogie, Y’all. Boogie Boogie, Y’all is basically a book that just inspires all its readers, kids, adults, anyone to just look at the art on the wall, take in everything around you, and how great it is. It's also a rap song, too. We have a great audiobook out right now as well to go along with the book that I definitely recommend people partner with.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now, these two are doing the work to help the next generation of kids, but I wondered when they first saw representations of themselves in media?

Yesenia Moises: That experience came from watching Spider-Verse, the movie that came out, I believe in 2018, in December. I remember going to theaters and seeing that movie. It was the very first time that I'd seen someone who, similar to me, was Afro-Latino but was able to speak Spanish in their home and it was just a very natural kind of thing. I went to a panel at the Apple store, where Peter Ramsay, the co-director for it was talking, and he had mentioned that for the movie, he'd made sure that in the times when Myles was speaking Spanish to his parents that there were no subtitles, because he felt like subtitles were very othering.

It made you feel like, "Oh, this is a really different language. This isn't normal." I think that was the very first time where I saw that being someone who has darker skin and speaks Spanish was very normal. That was very comforting to me.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I've got to say, it bothered me that 2018 was the first time Yesenia felt represented in media. I asked Charles about the gap and his normality and joyfulness not being reflected back to him.

Charles Esperanza: I first started pitching Boogie, boogie, Y'all maybe end of 2015, early 2016. At that point, there wasn't as much advocacy for Black and brown stories to be as celebrated as they are now. I definitely can see the difference right now. It's really great. We're getting some amazing stories. It's going to take a lot more to see a lot more stories get out.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I asked both Charles and Yesenia, they didn't have direct representation as kids, where did they find spaces where they saw themselves?

Charles Esperanza: As a kid, I was obsessed with anime, and I loved the amazing colors that they used. Everything in anime, it felt like it could be related to cartoons in America. At the same time, things were really, really different and off. I'd be like, "Whoa, what is this?" I related to that because a lot of the stuff that I liked was very weird. It wasn't Marvel Comics. It wasn't Batman, Superman. It was this weird place. I feel like I really related to that. Also, coming up watching Nickelodeon, Hey Arnold it took place in a city. I felt like a lot of the things that the characters in Hey Arnold went through, I could relate to.

Even though it was a White main character, I felt like there was a lot of diversity in that show at the time. Nickelodeon, in general, I feel like had a good amount of diversity in the 90s.

Yesenia Moises: I did really enjoy the worlds that were brought to me by anime and how they told stories in which the characters grew over time, as opposed to the more episodic stories that we see in American cartoons these days. Not these days, there's a little more flavor to them now than there was back when I was growing up. I just found it very fascinating, but also really enriching. It made me feel seen to see characters that were going through things and they had their own issues they were working through, they had adventures that they were going on with friends and I really love the idea that friendship is power.

That's something that we don't really get a lot in the-- back then we didn't really get a lot in the American cartoons that we had here. Things like Dexter's Laboratory, or Powerpuff Girls. Yes, they'd go on adventures. They have the flavor of the day monster where they beat up the bad guy, but we didn't really get to see them have internal dialogues about, "What am I feeling right now? How do I want to go about tackling this problem that's before me?" Things like that, I didn't really see very much of in American cartoons, and I really enjoyed that aspect. I really enjoyed how just colorful their worlds were, how imaginative they could be.

That sort of thing made me feel a lot more seen than the worlds that I was seeing on Cartoon Network or Kids' WB.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Charles Esperanza and Yesenia Moises, thank you both for joining us here at The Takeaway.

Charles Esperanza: Thank you so much, Melissa.

Yesenia Moises: Thank you .

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