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Melissa Harris Perry: Thanks for sticking with us on The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris Perry. We've been talking about Jackson Mississippi's ongoing struggle to provide safe, clean water for its residents.

The crisis has laid bare the fraught relationship between the state's majority white Republican leadership and the city's majority Black democratic leadership. This week, Mississippi Congressman Democrat, Benny Thompson told this to MSNBC.

Benny Thompson: I don't know of any white-run city that's a capital city that's being treated like Jackson Mississippi is.

Melissa Harris Perry: With us now is Jarvis Dortch, the executive director of the ACLU of Mississippi. Thanks for joining us, Mr. Dortch.

Javis Dortch: Thank you.

Melissa Harris Perry: Now, you served in the Mississippi state house from 2016 to 2020. How would you characterize the relationship of state political leadership to the city of Jackson?

Javis Dortch: There's definitely a paternalistic approach to how the state operates around Jackson. When there is an opportunity or some agreement to put resources into the city, there's always this mandate that it comes with some type of state control. I heard yesterday that the governor's side that the state has spent $200 million in the city.

I'm sure that's being added up by looking at the different, one sales tax commissions that's been put forward where it's tax dollars that Jacksonians spend, but it's being spent by commission that's appointed by state leaders and, some leaders from the city, but it's definitely something that's run by state leaders. Then there's another diversion, sales tax diversion that goes into another commission that's being spent on infrastructure projects just in the central part of the city and the downtown area and majority white area, that's also being, run by another commission that's heavily appointed by state leadership. There's never this idea of, let's make sure we invest in our capital city and make sure our capital city can grow by itself and sustain itself.

It's more of a, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it in a way that benefits the folks we want to benefit and we're going to control it. That's been the approach I've seen since I was in the legislature in the years prior to that.

Melissa Harris Perry: How can a city, we just spoke with the mayor, how can a city access federal resources, federal funds like those federal infrastructure funds that are about to come online, when it is dealing with this dysfunctional relationship with its state leadership?

Javis Dortch: We had this conversation with the EPA administrator yesterday, and I know the mayor is concerned about that and a lot of local leaders, because that is an issue and it's been an issue with everything from, TANF in Mississippi to the state not accepting Medicaid expansion. Dollar's going to the state and then going to communities through the Mississippi legislature or via the governor's office is a really big problem.

Its something that we really, a lot of people in that meeting begged the administrator to, take that back to the Biden administration and to Congress to understand that some of the times when these systems are getting put in place, you don't think that these type of barriers exist. If you're passing laws that are supposed to benefit cities like Jackson, and president Biden had specifically prior to the infrastructure bill, talked about the needs of the city like Jackson, there needs to be a intentional approach to make sure that money gets there because there are barriers at state government.

Melissa Harris Perry: Mr. Dortch, continue on this issue around accessing federal funds.

Javis Dortch: I think that there needs to be this intentional approach from Congress when they're putting these dollars in place to understand that there are places like Mississippi, where you want these dollars to get to a community like Jackson and there's a barrier there. Again, the EPA administrator talked about $400 million that's going to the state of Mississippi to take on some of these water issues and that half of that money should go to a place like Jackson or communities like that.

We are very afraid that that won't happen and even in a press conference with the EPA administrator, the governor just like it was reflective for him to say, Jackson is 5% of the population, they should get about $20 million of that. That does not meet the intent of that bill or meet the intent of what's what's needed right now. People are going to advocate for that funding to get there and we have to push forward to get there, but there's definitely an appetite here for that money to be directly appropriated to cities that need it.

Melissa Harris Perry: All right. I want to talk about this ongoing crisis. Many nationally, even international eyes are on Jackson right now, but it's my understanding that back in 2021 attorneys representing 600 children in the city, actually sued Jackson and the state in federal court over children's lead exposure through water. Can you tell us a bit more about that lawsuit?

Javis Dortch: We're not involved in that one directly, but from my understanding in reading that lawsuit, it's looking at the city, past administrations and the Mississippi department of health, which is the regulator of the water systems across the state, not providing or being transparent about what they were fighting in the water. This goes back to 2014 and 2015 and with lead in the water, essentially, we're in a situation that's parallel in many ways to the Flint system where there's a need to replace these old pipes that were, I believe put in place starting in 1920, because of those pipes, you were seeing lead in drinking water. That was something that the state and the prior administration back in 2014, 2015, and I think 2016 did not provide that information.

The plaintiffs in that case are alleging that they hid that information. I think that's going to be the contention on that lawsuit, how transparent and how appropriate that those administrations and the state department of health acted in providing parents and children and families with as much data as was needed.

Melissa Harris Perry: Can you put this crisis in a broader framework of public health in Mississippi and particularly in Jackson?

Javis Dortch: I always think about this quote I heard from a previous governor, governor William Winter who was one of the most progressive governors that was in the state back in the 1980s. He also served in the Mississippi legislature in the 1940s. He was in state government for a long time, but he talked about being in a legislature that was full of white men and wanting to do something good for the state and they would get to a point where they had some good legislation that would invest in the wellbeing or the state of Mississippi and there would be this planner class that would come and say, "Hey, this is going to benefit Black folks and that would kill the legislation.

Something that was going to benefit all of the state would be killed because there was a hierarchy in the state that was like, "We don't want to benefit anyone." Things work the way we want them to work and we want to continue that way and we can use race as a way to kill anything that's progressive. We've been dealing with those type of systems and approaches going back since reconstruction.

It's different today, it's not as blatant, but it's still the same thing where you could have a state turned down billions of dollars from Medicaid expansion and you have elected officials that know it's a good deal, but they can go back on, "Hey, Medicaid equals Black in Mississippi." We can always fall back on that, despite the fact that the hospital in your community is closing, don't blame us. We're going to scream Medicaid, Medicaid fraud.

We're going to scream, everything that makes you not think about the fact that you don't have access to a provider or a doctor in your community.

Melissa Harris Perry: Jarvis Dortch is Executive Director of the, ACLU of Mississippi, and a former representative in the Mississippi State House. Jarvis, thank you so much for joining us on The Takeaway.

Javis Dortch: Thank you all for inviting us.

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