Razia Iqbal: Hello, my name is Razia Iqbal. Welcome to Notes on a Native Son, a podcast about the writer James Baldwin. This year, 2024, marks the 100th birth anniversary of a man unique in American letters. He was many things to many different people. Novelist, essayist, activist, icon, seer. For Baldwin, though, such lists were meaningless. Who and what James Baldwin was and what is his legacy can't truly be listed, but it can and perhaps should be found in his work. He himself refused any attempt to box him in.

James Baldwin: I was called all kinds of names. I had all kinds of labels on me before I was 19 years old. Well, you have to tell the world I'm not your label. The label belongs to you. It doesn't belong to me. I have nobody to answer to. I had to defeat the world's intentions, and the only way I could do that was to make it very clear that I am not at all what I seem to be to you. I know what you are seeing, but I'm not that person. I will make you know it that I'm not that person. I make you know that I'm Jimmy Baldwin.

Razia Iqbal: This podcast tries to get close to the idea of getting to know Jimmy Baldwin through his work and for those who love his words to return to them. We've called it Notes on a Native Son after one of Baldwin's most famous autobiographical essays, Notes of a Native Son. That essay powerfully clarifies what he is and what America is on James Baldwin's terms. In each episode of Notes on a Native Son, we invite a well-known figure to choose a special or significant James Baldwin passage. The conversation that ensues tells us as much about Baldwin's story as it does about the person who loves Jimmy, as he was known to all who loved him.

Our guest on this episode of Notes on a Native Son is the African American writer and poet Nikki Giovanni. She describes herself as a dreamer. As a young woman, she could see that no one was interested in a Black girl writing what was seen as militant poetry. So she formed a company and published it herself. Her second book was launched at the famous New York jazz venue Birdland. She was making a name for herself.

When she was 28, she flew to London to sit with James Baldwin and record a conversation hosted by the PBS television series Soul. Baldwin was 46 and an established figure. As event television, it was electric. Clips from that interview continue to be shared many decades later. For many young people, that interview is how they encounter Nikki Giovanni. Though she has been a writer and activist for many decades. She's now 81 years old, and she says old age is fun. She recommends it. She's had a garlanded career, nominated for a Grammy, written bestselling books, and she is a distinguished university professor at Virginia Tech. In her own words, she is a cook, a traveler, a dreamer, a writer, and happy. We sat to talk in front of a screen. Me in New York, and she in Virginia.

Nikki Giovanni: My name is Nikki Giovanni. The James Baldwin quote that I have chosen is, "I am not your negro."

Razia Iqbal: Nikki Giovanni, thank you so much for agreeing to be part of this podcast. Tell us why you've chosen "I am not your negro."

Nikki Giovanni: I love that quote. I always have because the other side of it is, therefore, you are not my white man, so we both have to change. I like the way that Jimmy always seemed to balance things out. He would say one thing, but then if you took it to the next step, you would say, "Oh, now I see where that's coming from. You have to change also." Which is exactly what that quote takes us to.

Razia Iqbal: Can you remember where he said it? Because the sentiment that you are describing is something that he said very often in different ways.

Nikki Giovanni: I think I must have read it in one of the essays. It is an old expression. It wasn't something that he said and then died the next day. I've often said, quoting Jimmy in another way, "I, like any other Black American, have often wondered, what kind of slave would I be?" The other half of that is, but what kind of master would you be? We've often asked, "What kind of slaves would Black people be? What would they do?" People, "Oh, I would run away," or "I would do this." What kind of master would you be? I think white people don't ask themselves that much, what kind of master would they be?

We are now, of course, looking at a situation in America. Actually, it's spreading with the Israeli-Palestinian wars. It's not a war against Hamas. It's a war against the Palestinians. We are now seeing that people are saying, "Well, what kind of Israeli would you be? or "What kind of Palestinian would you be?" It's the same question. Jimmy's question is, what? 50 years old? 60 years old? But it's the same question and is requiring, I think, the same kind of soul search.

Razia Iqbal: I wonder also whether some of what informed him, saying, "I'm not your negro," is this idea that the negro is the creation of the white world and that, in some ways, what James Baldwin was arguing was that the white world needed the negro in order to do what they needed to do, whether it was to build an entire economic system of slavery or whether it was a desire to be superior, feel superior. In a way, what he was saying also, it seems to me, was consider why you need to call me the N word. It wouldn't always be negro. It would be the more pejorative term.

Nikki Giovanni: It's just a term that has to be dealt with because people want to tell you what you can call yourself. I don't know that I would disagree. Jimmy and I never discussed it. We didn't have that kind of relation. Nobody's going to sit there and have Jimmy Baldwin to dinner and have these philosophical discussions. That's a waste, but it really was. I really love the Godfather. It's one of my favorite movies of all times. I can watch it over and over again. We realize, of course, that the Italians were not white when they came to America. The Italians were not white. They were considered other, whatever the other's going to be.

We have to remember the Irish were not considered white. It was the Bostonians and the Protestants who sent the Irish over to Appalachia because they wanted to be rid of them because they were criminals. The British sent them to America to be rid of them, and they sent them to Appalachia. Those that they didn't send to Appalachia they sent, ultimately, to Australia, where they really killed as many as they could of the native Australians.

What does it mean to be white? The whites are constantly trying to define and destroy that which they do not need when the war comes. If you're a Godfather freak, you know that Michael Corleone signed up for the war. Sonny said, "Nobody should fight in the war." Michael said, "Well, I did. I signed up for the war." They needed the Italians in order to win the war, but they needed another step in order to win World War I. They needed to put guns in the hands of Black people.

As I say, we are seeing now, in 2024, as you and I are speaking, we are seeing a resistance to what clearly is the pro-Palestinian, which is not anti anything. The pro-Palestinian movement is exactly what they say it is. It's pro Palestine. That's not hard to understand. Now there are those who would say, "Well, the pro-Palestinian is anti-Israeli." I don't think any thinking person can say that. We can say that 34,000 dead Palestinians is unacceptable. That to be against that does not mean that you do not have Jewish friends. It just means that that's unacceptable.

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Razia Iqbal: It's so interesting hearing you evoke what is currently taking place, because, of course, so many people are also thinking about that very last time when there were masses of students protesting against a war, which, of course, was the late 1960s, 1968, and being anti the Vietnam War. I want to ask you about that, and I think we may get back to it. I wonder whether I can just take you back to just that little thing that you said about when one has Jimmy Baldwin over for dinner, one doesn't speak about these philosophical things. It would be a waste. Tell me when you first met James Baldwin.

Nikki Giovanni: I met him because we had a mutual friend, though I didn't know we had a mutual friend. Ellis Haesler and I had done favors for Ellis through a program called Soul, and I helped Ellis to produce those shows, but I didn't want to work for Ellis. I didn't want to work for anybody at that point, because I'm a poet, I'm a writer, and I didn't have any responsibilities that required me to have a job, thank the Lord. I worked with him but not for him, which meant that I could say and do what I wanted to do. It was a PBS show.

At the end of the season, I had worked very hard. We had a very good show. We got very good rating. He said, "What can I do to, not to pay you but to show that I appreciate it?" I said, "Gosh, I would really love to talk to James Baldwin." He said, "Oh, I know Jimmy." He said, "Yes." He said, "I'll call him and see what he says." I said, "That would be just great," and he did. A couple of days later, he got back to me, and he said, "Jimmy said he'd love to talk to you." He lived in France, as you know, St. Paul de Vence. He said, "He didn't have time to come to America, and he wondered if you would be willing to come to London." I said, "I'd walk to London to talk to James Baldwin. Of course I'd be willing."

That's how we met. I met him in London. Actually, I think we're exactly 19 years apart. We're two generations, so it was a lot of fun in many respects. You're talking to, I don't know, if it's your father or your big brother, but our conversation was just interesting. Of course, I was nervous because he's James Baldwin and I'm not. I wanted to hold my generations, and I wanted to hold the woman's end up. I wanted to be intelligent. I think I held my own on that. You're talking to somebody really, really great and somebody who's quite brilliant, but I enjoyed it. We filmed, I think, for two or three days, and they cut it down to like two hours, and we made a book out of it. Very nice, though. That's how I met him.

Razia Iqbal: That was 1971, when that encounter that resulted in that really quite seminal interview that you did with him. It's interesting that you talk about the age difference between you because you carry yourself in that interview with such poise and confidence. Where did that come from? In the presence of, as you yourself acknowledge this great man?

Nikki Giovanni: I think you have to do your job, and you just want to be polite and you want to be who you are. I had a wonderful grandmother, and of course, I had manners. My job was to hold up my generation. I think I did okay. I think I did my job.

Razia Iqbal: Did you have a plan? Did you have a strategy of how you were going to engage with him, what kinds of things you were going to ask him, and how you wanted that to be projected?

Nikki Giovanni: No. Really, both of us, unfortunately, smoked, and you will see that. I regret that. If I could take any one thing. I don't want kids to see that and say, "Oh, I should smoke," because smoking is terrible. You end up with lung cancer, which I have. No, I went in to sit down and not make a fool of myself, and I wouldn't have minded making a fool of myself, but I'm not an interviewer, and he's James Baldwin. I've read him. I was delighted that he had read me, that he had read some of my children's poetry.

There's a photo of Baldwin at his home in St. Paul de Vence with a book that I wrote called Spin A Soft Black Song. There's a photo of that book, and you can see it. I was very, very pleased about that. Other than that, I just wanted to sit down like I'm talking to you. I don't know, maybe you have questions, but I don't. I sat down to try to see what little bit of Jimmy I could bring out that I know and what I think about where we are today. Am I making sense? I'm just a poet, so I don't approach things like that. I want to know how they feel and can I get through them without being foolish.

Razia Iqbal: We'll take a short break. More from Nikki Giovanni when we come back. This is Notes on a Native Son with me, Razia Iqbal. [music] You're listening to Notes on a Native Son with Razia Iqbal. I'm intrigued to hear about what place you think James Baldwin occupied at that time and what place you think he occupies today. How much did his writing mean to you when you were at the heart of what was a revolutionary time?

Nikki Giovanni: First, Jimmy was very honest, and I think that that was important. We all read, of course, you read Richard Wright and you read Ralph Ellison, and all of these were wonderful. Jimmy took on the last Port Richard. Jimmy finally took on right to say, "Why are you talking to these people? Why aren't you talking to Black people?" I think he took that step. My generation, of course, definitely took that step. We definitely addressed our community more so than trying to please a community that actually showed no interest in us. At that particular point, now I say us, I mean, young Black Americans.

Then, of course, and it was a little later, but Motown came along. Berry Gordy had his faults. I didn't know Mr. Gordy's not a friend, none of that, but he was the voice of young America. That was one of the most clever things that ever happened because everybody sings our song. Again, I would bet you if Berry Gordy reads out and who knows or read, but I would bet you that, again, James Baldwin had an influence on-- we're going to sing our own songs, we're going to do what we want to do, and we're not going to be controlled or we're not trying to please anybody but ourselves.

Of course, the man central to all of that, whom I did not know, unfortunately, was Langston Hughes. Langston, with his poems, is the one who said to everybody, our time is now and we don't care. I think that Langston must have had, and I'm sure did have, an incredible influence on Baldwin because it was Langston that just said what's important here is that we will describe our own Black selves.

My generation came up. Those were our mothers and aunts, and Jimmy and them were a little bit ahead of us. So we're right there saying, "We can do this. We have no particular interest in pleasing other people." I think that Langston was probably the key influence in all of that. Was Langston just kind of hippie, hoppy along. I'm so sorry, I didn't know Mr. Hughes. I don't think he was as happy as he appeared to be, but he's always going to bring that joy.

Razia Iqbal: That phrase that you alluded to referring to Langston Hughes, "The time is now," is something that James Baldwin says in one of his essays. I think Stranger in the Village, he refers to the time is now. I wonder also about the presence of women in that moment when Jimmy was around. You were, as you say, 19 years younger than him, but you were referred to as the poet of the Black Revolution. How much did it feel to you at the time that men dominated and that the voices of women had to be fought for in that moment in the 1960s and '70s?

Nikki Giovanni: I didn't then, and I don't now. I say that to the youngsters. Do what you have to do and not worry about who you're trying to influence or who wants to hear what you have to say. Somebody does, and so your job is to go out and find it. Of course, one of the things that you and I have just not said, and I thought we should say it to get that balance. Langston was the poet of joy, and Jimmy was the essayist of anger. Being as my generation was 20 years behind all of those people, we got to see how it's going to work for us. I think some women spent too much time worrying about all the men get all of the credit or the men do this. You just go and do what you want to do or what you have to do, and you can't worry about it.

I'm sure that Alice Walker did not say, "I should write a novel so that I can get some credit as a woman." I think she wrote The Color Purple because that's what she wanted to write, no matter what her gender. It was none of our business. What she did was what she thought she had to do. I think that some of the women, some of the times, spent too much time worried about their position with some of the men, but I have more of Jimmy's anger than Hughes joy.

I didn't like the way that some of the so-called men responded to the brilliance of Toni Morrison. If you can't recognize that Toni Morrison is brilliant, that's your problem. Toni was a good friend. I do, even now, even yet, miss her. Toni knew, I'm not going to be bothered with these people. I'm going to go ahead and do what I have to do. What they do and don't like is somebody else's business. I think that you have to do your life.

Razia Iqbal: We can hear your dog in the background.

Nikki Giovanni: Yes, I'm sorry about that. There's nothing I can do about her.

Razia Iqbal: No, don't worry. Don't worry.

Nikki Giovanni: Her name is Cleopatra, and somebody must be walking down the street. She's a Yorkie, so she's a very protective dog. I don't know what's going on with her.

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Razia Iqbal: I'm interested in hearing you say that you have more of Jimmy's anger than you do of Langston Hughes joy. What are you angry about still?

Nikki Giovanni: The world. People are fools. I have a friend that says, "You can't keep saying you'll depress people," but people are fool. We talk now about what is called AI, artificial intelligence. If this is human intelligence, there's been a great mistake. Artificial intelligence is way better because we're still fighting wars. There's nothing dumber than killing something you don't eat. There's just nothing dumber on earth than killing something you don't eat. Why would you do that? If you don't eat it, then why are you killing it? If we put AI into history right now, it would say, "Don't fight a war because there's no win." Nobody can win a war. All you can do is keep killing and killing and killing until somebody gets tired of being dead. That's AI, so AI has a little more intelligence than HI, than human intelligence.

Razia Iqbal: Do you go back and read James Baldwin? He obviously was a really significant figure for you. You read him when you were young. I wonder how much you reread him and go back to him.

Nikki Giovanni: I haven't reread Jim in a while. You go for it. I'm reading mostly right now. The youngsters I taught, I had the pleasure of teaching Kwame Alexander, who's a YA writer. I think that also one of the most brilliant writers right now writing period is a young Haitian lady named Edwidge Danticat. I'm not quite 20 years older than Edwidge, but The Dew Breaker is just an incredibly brilliant book. Edwidge is an incredibly brilliant writer. I haven't reread Jimmy, and I keep saying I should because it's the 100th anniversary and you should go back, but I'm not a critic. Critics go back and they do things over and over and over again. I do what I remember.

What I remember it's like when I was asked, "What's your favorite quote?" The favorite quote is, and I believe that I am not your negro. I'm still not your negro. I will never be your negro. It's one of my very favorite quotes of Jimmy. I'm just not your negro. You go forward with that. If I were a critic as opposed to a poet, I don't know. I think of myself almost as a futurist now. I would probably look at Jimmy in a different way. His essays are still. He could have written almost any one of those essays for today in looking at the world situation, but we can't just always look at it as if we knew what had happened. We have to look at it like, "Where do we want to go?" Am I making sense? Where do we want to go from here?

Razia Iqbal: You are making complete sense. I'm so interested in this idea that he could have written any of those essays in 2024, because that suggests that not only were his messages universal, the progress that we've made was very, very limited.

Nikki Giovanni: I don't know if we can call what we're doing now progress or not. What we've done is that some white people, when they need something. I've been working, by the way, with Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. I don't know if this will. I wrote a short story from a dear friend. I love him so much, Ashley Bryan. I don't know if you know Ashley. He's a children's illustrator. Ashley passed. He was 99 years old. He passed two years ago now. I wrote the story for him because he and I are always talking about children. The thing that bothered me about Rudolph, the thing that bothers me, and I don't know that it'll ever be published. I'll die, and somebody will discover it, but nobody cared. Santa didn't care about Rudolph until one foggy Christmas Eve. All of a sudden, he needed something.

Now Rudolph had a shiny nose. They laughed at him. Everybody saw that. Santa and Mrs. Claus saw what was happening. That song, that story teaches kids to be bullies until you need something. America had no use for Black people until they wanted to win a gold medal. We had runners. When America couldn't find any white boy to run, they wouldn't find a couple of Black boys. You get tired of being called on because you're being needed. It's time that people stop that foolishness. Rudolph is a perfect example.

If I had been Rudolph, I would have told Santa to kiss my ass. Because after all of the pain I would have that Rudolph went through, he knew Rudolph was lonely and by himself. Nobody went out there and said, Rudolph, these people are fools. Nobody said that to Jesus either, did they? Nobody said that to Socrates, did they? Nobody said that really to James Baldwin. Nobody says that to any brilliant writer. I can say that. I said that to kids. I gave a speech to a high school class about six, seven months ago, and the first thing I said was, "If you are smart, let alone, God bless you if you are brilliant, you're lonely."

Anybody out here who was lonely, you are smart. The rest of these people are fools, because you see what they are. They're nothing. They're stupid, and they're mean. They're never going to come to say anything to you until they need you. You need to learn to turn away from them. I always get a big hand on that because it's true. It's quite true. The better you are, the more lonely you will be. So you go on and lead your life because somebody else out there is lonely. Your job is to leave your life open enough to find the other lonely people.

Razia Iqbal: Nikki Giovanni, thank you so much for sharing your memories of James Baldwin and for speaking with us on this podcast. Thank you so much.

Nikki Giovanni: Thank you.

Razia Iqbal: Nikki Giovanni, speaking to me, Razia Iqbal. This has been Notes on a Native Son, a new podcast about James Baldwin. In the next episode, we'll hear from the Libyan writer Hisham Matar. This podcast is brought to you by WNYC Studios and sponsored by the School of Public and International Affairs, Princeton University. It is a Sea Salt And Mango production produced by Toni Phillips. The researcher is Navani Rachumallu. The executive producer for WNYC Studios, Lindsay Foster Thomas. Original music is by Gary Washington. The sound designer and engineer is Axel Kacoutie. We give special thanks to Dean Amani Jamal of Princeton University.

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