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Nancy Solomon: This is The Takeaway. I'm Nancy Solomon from WNYC News sitting in for Tanzina Vega this week. 14 months into a global pandemic, and we’re still struggling with rising COVID-19 infections, kids home from school, and the economy in tatters. All of that falls at the doorstep of governors.

We're going to talk about the place I know best, New Jersey, which is grappling with so many of the debates happening nationwide, aging infrastructure, check. Frustration with the appointment system for getting a vaccine, check. Desperate to get your kids back to school, don't even. To talk about all of this, we're joined by Governor Phil Murphy. This is the last year of his first term. He's a Democrat, and his party controls the state legislature, but it's not exactly Kumbaya in Trenton. Governor Murphy, welcome back to The Takeaway.

Governor Phil Murphy: Nice to be with you, Nancy. Thank you for having me.

Nancy Solomon: I should probably say up front that you and I do this regularly for a show that runs on the public radio stations in New Jersey, you once complimented me by saying the show was like a sharp stick in the eye. So, thanks for subjecting yourself yet again.

Governor Phil Murphy: [laughs] Yes, that was quite an introduction in terms of the state of affairs in New Jersey. You've gotten off to a good start.

Nancy Solomon: [chuckles] Well, let's jump right in and talk about vaccine access. It's opening up for everyone over the age of 16 next week in New Jersey, and of course, around the country. This is something President Biden is urging states to do. Is that going to cause another logjam for the appointment system?

Governor Phil Murphy: Listen, we already have a supply-demand imbalance, but just as when you bought an airplane, someone came up with this analogy, which I think is a good one where you have group 1A, 1B, 1C, you don't wait till the last person is through before you open up the next group. So you've got overlapping waves. That's the approach we've taken.

We crossed 5 million shots in arms, so we have 9 million residents in New Jersey as you know. Listen, that's not to say that there is not a supply-demand imbalance and folks who have not gotten an appointment, that we don't understand why they're frustrated or have anxiety, because we do, but the fact of the matter is, we're one of the most efficient states in the country in terms of delivering the supply that we get. The challenge is we need more supply, and that's something the Biden team knows and they're working on.

Nancy Solomon: You made the decision early on to let local school districts decide for themselves whether to teach kids in person. That has led to some epic fights in communities about getting their kids back to school, that it's often pitted teachers against parents. Why did you decide to leave it up to the local school districts?

Governor Phil Murphy: A couple of reasons. First of all, New Jersey was just rated again, for the second or third year in a row is the number one public education system in America. Let's start with where we are, and we wear that as a badge of honor. It's a huge magnet for families, for businesses, for folks who want to be here.

Secondly, we are the ultimate Home Rule state. Even in a normal time, while there's a significant amount of state guidance and an enormous amount of state financial support, we pride ourselves in accepting that no two districts are the same. When you come to a pandemic, we've felt from the beginning, there's no reason why you should think differently.

Now, having said that, we have been crystal clear that we, from the get-go, that the in-person instruction is far richer than the hybrid and remote instruction, and that's what we would like to see as something we could do it safely and responsibly. It's moving toward that. Right now, 70 plus percent of our kids are either in hybrid or in-person. We've said that we hope that number gets up to 85% or more this school year, and we expect everybody to be back in the classroom in September.

Listen, that's not to say that there's mental health challenges that have come from this learning loss, and we're throwing a lot of resources at both of those to do whatever we can to make up for the lost time.

Nancy Solomon: What do you think about the reticence that teachers have had about returning to class? You have a political relationship with the teachers union. They've been supportive of you. I imagine this is been a real tension over the many months. Even with vaccines, teachers have said that they're afraid of putting their families at risk if they were to return to school now. What do you think about the position teachers have taken?

Governor Phil Murphy: Listen, this has been an extraordinary stressful year on everybody, moms, dads, kids, educators, administrators, there's just no denying that. I can't begrudge anybody saying, I've got a lot of concerns about what's going on in life right now, and many of these educators, if not most are moms and dads themselves. At every step of the way, we have tried to call balls and strikes as we see it. In fact, I'm on the phone regularly, almost every day, calling a mayor, a superintendent, a local union president, going through their plans to get kids back into school.

Everybody, I believe recognizes and wants to get back in person, but we just got to do it in a way that safely done, responsible, and I'm optimistic we'll get there. Newark, which is our biggest school district has signaled that they're about to go back in at least for hybrid learning. That's a huge step in the right direction. Equity, by the way, is a huge piece of this. You want to make sure it's not just 70% of kids, but you also want to look to see while we've got the number one public school system in America, the dispersion of experience remains far wider than any of us would like. That's certainly another factor in this.

Nancy Solomon: Young Latino men make up half the deaths in New Jersey from COVID for people under the age of 50. I know that you've been getting a lot of pushback from progressives in New Jersey on your budget. They're largely supportive of your budget, but there's been pushback about wanting relief for undocumented workers who aren't eligible for the stimulus checks. What do you think? These are essential workers who kept us afloat during the pandemic. What's your thinking about supporting undocumented workers right now?

Governor Phil Murphy: Listen, your premise is the right one, Nancy. First of all, as a general matter, this virus has been disproportionately crushed communities of color. As I've said many times, COVID-19 didn't create these inequities, but it is certainly laid them bare. Everything from access to health, all the way to as you rightfully point out who populates our essential workforce. We've done with our own budget with the disbursement of the Coronavirus funds that we already have. We've done everything we can to try to address those inequities.

Am I optimistic? Am I hopeful that we can find a way to drive money directly to those undocumented brothers and sisters in our state, whether it's federal or other money? Yes, that's something that we absolutely want to do. We are the most diverse state in America, we wear that as a badge of honor. We know that a pandemic is like a lot of other things in life, you don't achieve success unless you bring everybody along, not just some of us.

Nancy Solomon: Let's talk about Joe Biden's infrastructure package. He wants to spend $2 trillion to shore up roads, bridges, the internet, the green economy, the list goes on. How does the Biden package help a state like New Jersey?

Governor Phil Murphy: It's a game-changer. Think about who we are for a second, Northeast Corridor, densest state in America located in the densest region in America, and a state that has its share of legacy assets. When you look at what could be in that package, and you look at what is already in our state, an all-time high investment in infrastructure, it's a game-changer.

The Gateway tunnel project, which is one you and I have talked about adding two new tunnels under the Hudson River. Then rehabbing the two that are there that were built-- By the way folks, this is not a typo in 1910 Offshore wind, other roads, bridges, rails tunnels, it's a game-changer for us. Absolute game-changer, and it's a huge job spinner, especially for organized labor, and we are the quintessential organized labor state. In every respect, it's a big deal for us.

Nancy Solomon: I would love for you to tell the Portal Bridge story briefly if you could. That is really such a great example of what happens when you ignore infrastructure.

Governor Phil Murphy: This is a bridge in New Jersey, between Newark and the Hudson River, built again around 1910 and it's over a canal and it's a swing bridge. Meaning it swings out parallel to the water when there is maritime traffic. The problem is, the bridge is so old, when it gets swung back into position, you need literally manpower to hammer in the bolt that keeps the bridge in place. This is not just any bridge, the entire Northeast Amtrak spine goes across this bridge. We got, I'm happy to say, from President Trump, the green light to replace that. That's one piece of the so-called Gateway project, but it gives you some sense of the legacy assets that we're dealing with.

Nancy Solomon: [chuckles] Right. Biden is proposing to raise the corporate business tax to pay for these infrastructure improvements. What do you think of that? You've raised the millionaire's tax, there's been a big debate in New Jersey about wealthy people leaving the state whether they would or not. Now, here's more taxes on both corporations and the wealthy.

Governor Phil Murphy: Listen, I think if folks feel like they got their money's worth, you feel a lot better about what you're paying. Did I get value back from what I paid? We are so overdue as a nation to have that FDR era reinvestment in our infrastructure. The spine that is the backbone of our nation, but as well in a 21st-century mode. So yes, it's roads, bridges, rails, and tunnels, but it's also and must be also broadband. It must be offshore wind.

New Jersey has aspirations and a real plan in place to become the number one offshore wind state in America, having the feds alongside us helping to make that reality sooner. Everybody benefits from that, including corporations. I would say, as long as folks feel like this money is well spent, it's worth it, and it's frankly overdue as a nation.

Nancy Solomon: Has there been any evidence yet that wealthy people are leaving the state because of the rising taxes here?

Governor Phil Murphy: We have not. To the contrary, Nancy, and this may well be temporary because of the pandemic, people have been coming to New Jersey in a big way over the past year to get that single-family home, maybe sooner in life to raise their kids, put them in school, commute to work. That's the big trend that we've seen in particular over the past year.

Nancy Solomon: Okay, well, thanks so much for talking with us. New Jersey Governor, Phil Murphy, it's great to have you on the show.

Governor Phil Murphy: Thanks for having me, Nancy. Take care.

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