KATHY: Hey, Tobin.

TOBIN: Yes, Kathy?

KATHY: You know why I really like podcasting?

TOBIN: Why do you like podcasting?

KATHY: Because usually it’s just you and me in a room talking to each other.  

TOBIN: Mhm.

KATHY: I love that.

TOBIN: It’s nice! It’s very intimate.

KATHY: It’s intimate and completely within my comfort zone.

TOBIN: Right.

[BACKGROUND MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: That comfort zone being not in front of a lot of other people. Which is ironic, because something they don’t tell you about hosting a podcast is that these days, you also have to host live shows.

KATHY: Yeah. If they like you enough, people want to see you live!

TOBIN: Yeah!

KATHY: I don’t understand!

TOBIN: We have to stand in front of literally tens of people, okay? [KATHY LAUGHS] But the good news is — a little behind-the-scenes tea — we’ve developed a coping mechanism.

KATHY: Yeah?

TOBIN: What do I say to you before every show, Kathy?

KATHY: [INHALES, THEN, SERIOUS] “Don’t fuck this up for me.”

TOBIN: [SNICKERS] I do! And every time, you don’t fuck it up for me. [LAUGHS]

KATHY: It’s true, it really does work.

[THEME MUSIC STARTS]

GROUP VOX: From WNYC Studios, this is Nancy. With your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

TOBIN: So, Kath.

KATHY: Mhm.

TOBIN: At this point, we’ve actually done quite a few live shows.

KATHY: Yep.

TOBIN: And we really do enjoy doing them. Like, it’s fun to meet the listeners.

KATHY: It’s true. It’s really, really fun.

TOBIN: Yeah. And each time, we think to ourselves, “Selves, we wish we could share this show with everyone!”

KATHY: So, you know what, that’s what we’re gonna do today.

TOBIN: Surprise!

KATHY: We’re going to take you to not one, but two live shows!

TOBIN: Yes. So the first one is from last summer at the Bell House in Brooklyn, where we were a part of the Big Queer Pod Fest.

KATHY: Super fun.

TOBIN: So fun. There were some other great podcasts on the bill too, like Making Gay History, LGBTQ&A, Food for Thot … and for our part of the show, our guest on stage was the wonderful, hilarious stand-up Jes Tom.

KATHY: They’re funny, they’re sharp, and — side note — I love looking at their Instagram for some amazing fashion inspiration.

TOBIN: Yes. But, okay. Before we launch into that recording, quick public service announcement! What you are about to hear is truly one of our first live shows and, dear podcast listeners, [LAUGHS] at that point, we were like Live Show Babies.

KATHY: Yeah. I — We could say that we didn’t quite know what we were doing.

TOBIN: Yeah. You could say that we had no idea what we were doing. [BOTH LAUGH] And so, like, even though the show itself was great, we put a few visuals up on the screen for the audience. And former superstar producer Matt Collette tried to remind us, you know, “Describe the visuals, this is being recorded, it’s a podcast.”

KATHY: Yep. Yep. He did.

TOBIN: Uh, and, of course, we promptly forgot to do that.

KATHY: I’d say we forgot about 20% of the time … [TOBIN HUMS AFFIRMATIVELY] which means we remembered 80% of the time, which, like, you know … is good!

TOBIN: That’s a generous rating. [KATHY LAUGHS] So, to make this work, what you’re going to hear is that every once in a while, we’re gonna just pop back in and explain what’s going on. You know, like the occasional play-by-play.

KATHY: Yes. So, on to the show!

[CROWD MEMBER CHEERING]

TOBIN: Thank you so much for being here on this day when Beyonce dropped a surprise album. [CROWD LAUGHS AND CHEERS] I'm shocked you showed up at all.

KATHY: I know.

TOBIN: I'm shocked. Um, my name is Tobin.

KATHY: I'm Kathy. [CROWD CHEERS] We host a podcast called Nancy.

TOBIN: We are also both queer and Asian. [CROWD CHEERS] Which tonight we're going to lean in hard on, um — starting with our amazing guest. Let's bring them out!

KATHY: Yes!

TOBIN: They're so funny. They were making us die backstage. Please welcome comedian Jes Tom. [CROWD CHEERS FOR SEVERAL SECONDS]

KATHY: Okay. Okay. All right. I have a question for you.

JES: Okay, I have an answer.

KATHY: In your bio, you describe yourself as a non-binary, queer, Asian-American radical cyborg?

JES: It's true.

KATHY: What does that mean?

JES: Um, well as as I often say in my stand-up sets, I'm a non-binary trans person, which means I am trans but I don't identify as a punk musician or a spoken word artist. [KATHY AND THE CROWD LAUGH LOUDLY] Yeah, Asian. What am I, Asian American non-binary Radical cyborg? I think a lot of those are pretty [PAUSE] self-explanatory.

KATHY: It's true, I don't know why I asked. [CROWD LAUGHS] It's true.

JES: All you guys are holding phones, right? We're all cyborgs here. [CROWD LAUGHS] It means I'm always ready. [TOBIN AND KATHY LAUGH]

TOBIN: Okay so as we said we're all queer and Asian which also means that we all have Asian mothers. [CROWD CHEERS]

KATHY: Yeah.

JES: I — that's not necessarily true.

TOBIN: That's true, that's true!

JES: It is true, I think, of all of us.

TOBIN: It is true of the three of us. It's true of the three of us.

KATHY: I do have an Asian mother. You guys all know about her. [CROWD LAUGHS] There's more, you guys. [KATHY LAUGHS] Don't worry.

TOBIN: Jes, I wanna know your best Asian mom story.

JES: Okay. Um, so, I have a joke that I like to tell where the punchline is — spoiler — I'm on the phone with my mom and I say the only thing I learned in the Girl Scouts is what a gloryhole is.

[CROWD LAUGHS]

JES: Which — you can fill in what the rest of that joke might possibly be. And then so one time I got a text from my mom that just said, uh, verbatim, “Hey, hey! What's a gloryhole.” And I'm very lucky. My mom and I have a very close relationship. I'm a fifth-generation American on my mom's side so we see eye-to-eye a lot more on certain things. So, uh, I decided I would be truthful with her. We have a close relationship. I was like, I'm just gonna tell her. So I was like, “Well, mother … A gloryhole is a hole in a wall, such as in a stranger's house, that a person may stick their penis through and receive anonymous sex. Why did you watch my comedy video?"

[CROWD LAUGHS]

JES: ‘Cause I was feeling touched, you know, I was like, “Oh, she watched my video.” And she went, “No. I just wanted to build one in the remodel of our house.” [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: [MORTIFIED] No!

KATHY: Wow. [LAUGHS]

JES: She's always dunking on me. [CROWD LAUGHS] That’s … that's my mom.

TOBIN: To be fair, it sounds like a positive thing.

JES: Oh, yeah. It's wonderful.

KATHY: Yeah, it is!

TOBIN: The name.

JES: I'm very — I'm very grateful to be able to talk about gloryholes with my mother. Let's just — let's just be clear about that. I'm grateful to have that relationship.

KATHY: Yeah, I couldn't do that. I wouldn’t. [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: So, Jes. We've invited you here for a very serious segment.

JES: Very serious.

TOBIN: Yeah. Go ahead and put up the visual! [PAUSE] The Queer Asian Canon, you guys! Tonight we are going to nominate things to add to the Queer Asian Canon.

JES: From where it is currently. [ALL LAUGH]

TOBIN: Yes. We're each going to nominate things and then we're going to point-counterpoint the shit out of it and see if it makes it into the Canon. And I just have to say when we initially conceived of this segment we were like, “We're going to get a T-shirt cannon. No problem.”

KATHY: Yeah. [CROWD LAUGHS]

JES AND KATHY: Turns out —

KATHY: They're expensive! [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Really expensive, you guys. [CROWD LAUGHS MORE] So expensive.

KATHY: Superstar producer Matt Collette bought a giant slingshot instead.

TOBIN: Yes. If a thing up makes it in, if we vote it in — we have T-shirts with the things on them.

JES: Oh my god, I want one!

TOBIN: And we're gonna shoot it into the audience. So please be vocal about things you love, things that you don't think should make it in. Maybe you'll get a T-shirt with the thing on it. Alright, let's get started, shall we? Jes, the first one is yours, and it is … if we can change the slide … Margaret Cho.

KATHY: Margaret Cho. [CROWD CHEERS] Margaret Cho.

JES: Okay, so I admit that when we were putting together this segment, I think I misunderstood it a little bit. [CROWD LAUGHS] And I think that I came in with it being like, “What is already in the Queer Asian Canon?” So here we have Margaret Cho. [KATHY AND THE CROWD LAUGHS] I don't know, guys … she's queer, she's Asian. [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Yeah. Yeah. [CROWD CHEERS] Yeah.

KATHY: There's so few of us.

JES: I will say that as a teenager, before I ever started doing stand-up, one of one of the ways that I really was introduced to stand-up was by watching clips of Margaret Cho on YouTube. And seeing her in, like, the early 2000s, talking about having sex with women, on stage, like it was just like a normal thing for any … It was just like, here's an Asian woman, she talks about having sex with women on stage. That's what it is. I was like, “That's normal, I'm going to do that too!” And now …

KATHY: Here you are.

JES: Here I am. [ALL LAUGH] So I do have Margaret to thank for that. So — so, thanks, Margaret.

KATHY: I have no arguments against that. Do you?

TOBIN: I would also say she was very vocal and continues to be vocal about, like, her queer community and so when I came out in high school, I had an Asian friend who loved Margaret Cho and it gave her like a shorthand for like, “Oh, I'll just be your Margaret Cho now.” Which was, like, so lovely, and I will always thank Margaret for that. So I say we fire the T-shirt.

KATHY: Yeah. I say we fire the T-shirt. [CROWD CHEERS] Jess, you might — you’re gonna, you're gonna …

TOBIN: Jes, will you do the honors?

KATHY: You're gonna roll this up.

JES: Oh my God.

KATHY: And then you're going to do the firing.

TOBIN: Here we go. [THE T-shirt SLINGSHOT FIRES] Yes!

[CROWD CHEERS]

KATHY: That was beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful. Alright. Alright. Second thing.

TOBIN: Okay, this one is mine.

KATHY: BD Wong. [CROWD CHEERS] If any of you know BD Wong and can get us in touch [LAUGHS] that would be amazing.

TOBIN: I just want to shout out BD Wong, because when you start paying attention, BD Wong is in fucking everything.

KATHY: Everything! [CROWD LAUGHS] Like, good guy, bad guy. [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Like, Showtime. Everywhere. B.D. Wong is like an Asian Laura Dern. [CROWD LAUGHS] You know what I mean?

KATHY: [LAUGHS] I love Laura Dern.

TOBIN: An out, queer, Asian actor who has been that forever. I stan for BD Wong. Anyone have any objections?

KATHY: I also love him after watching so many years of SVU. So many years. Look at that face.

TOBIN: Shall I fire BD?

KATHY: I think you should fire. Fire away. [CROWD CHEERS] Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Very good.

TOBIN: All right. Kathy's going to do the next one, and …

KATHY: Okay. So, I might have also misunderstood the assignment [CROWD LAUGHS] because I may have … more so … chosen someone that I was in love with, than who I should …

TOBIN: Okay. Here’s where we put up a picture of Constance Wu — the star of Crazy Rich Asians and Fresh Off the Boat.

JES: Y’know, I feel like Constance Wu is like our pretty cousin — [CROWD LAUGHS] — you know, like, like, she does anything and we’re like “Alright, you go, girl.” But, hmm. [GRUNTS] It's her again. [CROWD LAUGHS]

KATHY: To be fair, she was in a movie called The Feels where she played a lesbian. [CROWD WHOOPS] And I'm also okay not elevating this to the Queer Canon because I just want to keep the T-shirt.

JES: I know, right? [CROWD LAUGHS] But the thing is, though, when you wear that, people are going to think that you’re Constance Wu. [CROWD GOES WILD]

KATHY: Am I okay with that? [CROWD SAYS, “YES!”] Am I okay with that? Tobin … ?

TOBIN: [BREATHLESSLY] Oh my god.

KATHY: I think I'm okay with that.

TOBIN: No, here’s the thing, they’re gonna be like …

JES: They’re going to be like, “Oh you got a haircut.” [CROWD LAUGHS, PAUSE] Side note — I did, one time, after one of the biggest comedy shows I ever did, get asked, uh, by a journalist how I got involved with Fresh Off the Boat. [CROWD GASPS, TOBIN SAYS “NO!”] Yes, yes, yes. And I couldn’t, for the life of me, figure out who she thought I was. I was like, “Does she think I'm one of the little boys?” [CROWD LAUGHS]

KATHY: Alright, movin’ on. I'm keeping the T-shirt. [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: You're keeping the T-shirt. Okay. Constance Wu does not make it. [CROWD BOOS MILDLY] We love you, Constance, but…

KATHY: It’s okay. I’m just in love with her. Alright. Next one is a Tobin. Tobin. The Wedding Banquet.

TOBIN: Okay. Does everyone remember when Brokeback Mountain came out and it was like, “Oh my god, Ang Lee made a gay movie. This is incredible.”

KATHY: Yes.

TOBIN: And I was like [CROWD LAUGHS] … “That's not the original one!”

JES: Yo, yo.

TOBIN: This is, like, one of his early films. I think it may be even his first feature length film. And it's this beautiful movie about a Chinese queer man with a partner who has to go through kind of a bizarre story line with a straight woman. It — it gets a little convoluted but! It is a beautiful story about coming out to Asian parents, and it was, like, Ang Lee’s early masterpiece. And I just feel like it doesn't get enough love. So I would love to see The Wedding Banquet make it in. [CROWD CHEERS]

KATHY: I don't really know this movie at all, so I'm gonna trust you.

JES: I know, I was — I was going to say I haven't seen it, either, and I wonder if that means that we will be removed from the Queer Asian Canon. [ALL LAUGH]

KATHY: All right. Go, Tobin, go! [TOBIN FIRES THE T-shirt SLINGSHOT, AND THE CROWD CHEERS] We get it? I missed it. We got it. Alright.

TOBIN: Oh, the next one is you, Kathy.

KATHY: It's me! I mean, not me. [LAUGHS] You know. Sailor Moon. [CROWD CHEERS UPROARIOUSLY FOR SEVERAL SECONDS] I'm not gonna lie. I've watched very little Sailor Moon. I was more into Ranma 1/2. Nobody knows what that is, it's fine.

JES: That's in the Queer Asian Canon!

KATHY: It is! Anyways. I think she's gay?

JES: Yes. Spoiler! [KATHY LAUGHS]

KATHY: My sister was really into it and I was like, “You're into it so I'm not going to be into it.” So I just didn't watch it. But I feel like everybody knows that there’s lesbian couples?

JES: Canonically, technically, there is one lesbian couple. However, it is about five girls who love each other so much … [CROWD LAUGHS] that they will, like, routinely, like, disintegrate their own bodies like to protect each other, which sounds extremely gay to me.

KATHY: Very gay. Very gay. I agree. [LAUGHS]

JES: Also, can I just say, um, there … uh … this past spring, um, my partner — who is also Asian-American — and I were planning to see Black Panther and then we — [CROWD CHEERS] we did end up seeing it later. But this particular night we weren't able to see it because we realized we had tickets to a different movie which was a showing of a, uh, live action Sailor Moon musical. [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: [INCREDULOUS] What?

KATHY: Oh, wow.

JES: Yes. Yes. Which was kind of the closest we were going to get to our Black Panther anyway. [CROWD LAUGHS] And it was an endless live action musical. This is actually wild. It's an all-female cast. So even though there are male characters, canonically, in Sailor Moon all of the people in this live action thing were played by like really, really hot butch women who are made to look hot for the female gaze of the female fans of Sailor Moon.

TOBIN: Oh my god. Shoot the T-shirt, shoot the T-shirt.

KATHY: I'm gonna do it.

[CROWD CHEERS]

TOBIN: Okay. This is our last one. This is the big one.  This is Jes’. Let’s go to it.

[CROWD CHEERS WILDLY]

KATHY: And of course it could only be one person…

TOBIN: Yes.

KATHY: The queen of all Disney princesses …

TOBIN: Yes!

KATHY: The woman who brings honor to us all.

TOBIN: Who is that girl I see? It is ...

BOTH: [SIMULTANEOUSLY] Mulan!

KATHY: My hero.

JES: Who among us did not weep bitter, triumphant tears [CROWD CHEERS] at this scene where she slashes her hair off with her father’s sword? That's why.

KATHY: That’s how I wanted to do it, but people were like, “No. Go get it cut.” [CROWD LAUGHS]

JES: I did write a piece for — by Shondaland recently about the queerness of Disney's Mulan in which I chronicle her, I argue, non-binary transgender journey, uh, over the course of the movie. I, uh — I mean, it's just, you know, she's Mulan. She fails at being a woman, she fails at being a man. Only by doing her own thing is she able to reach success. [CROWD CHEERS]

KATHY: It's true. Its true.

JES: The movie is very, I mean … It’s, like, so about transgressing gender. It's very unfortunate that there has to be that, like, transmisogynistic gag scene that happens at the end. Umm. But she's also, like — ultimately what happens is that she tells all her friends that they, too, have to transgress gender in order to get anything done. And I think that there's really a message there about, you know, just transgressing gender constructs and transgressing, you know, what people expect of you, and transgressing who the hot general finds attractive. [KATHY AND THE CROWD LAUGHS] Oh no, I love Mulan. That's our girl. We love her.

[CROWD CHEERS]

KATHY: Yeah, icon. An icon.

[MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: One last time, shall we fire a shirt into the audience?

[CROWD CHEERS]

KATHY: That was Jes Tom, a comedian based in Brooklyn. They have some shows coming up, too, and you can find out about them on Twitter @jestom. That’s J-E-S-T-O-M.

TOBIN: Up next, we’ve got another live show for you … and for this one, we brought back one of our favorite guests.

[MUSIC ENDS]

KATHY: Nancy will be back in a minute.

[WHISTLE]

[MIDROLL]

 

[BACKGROUND MUSIC STARTS]

KATHY: And we’re back with another live show!

TOBIN: This one was recorded last year as part of the “Speak Up, Rise Up” festival in New York.

KATHY: And we invited one of our favorite guests from the podcast to join us onstage: JP Brammer.  JP runs a column called “Hola Papi,” where he offers tough love, queer musings, and most importantly, advice.

TOBIN: And he gives such good advice!

KATHY: Mhm.

TOBIN: If you haven’t heard his episode, go back to the one called “You’re Not a ‘Bad Gay.’”

KATHY: One thing I love about JP is how goofy and funny he is.

TOBIN: Mhm.

KATHY: Like, you love him because he’s honest and he’ll help you laugh a little about your problems.

TOBIN: Yeah! He can take any situation and, y’know, just lighten it up a bit.

KATHY: Mhm. [PAUSE] As prep for this live show, we got more listeners to send in their questions for JP. Then we played them for him during show.

[MUSIC ENDS]

[CROWD CLAPPING]

JP: Hola.

KATHY: Hi, JP.

JP: Hello.

KATHY: Thanks for joining us.

JP: Of course!

KATHY: Lovely, lovely romper you have on.

JP: Thank you. I keep calling it a jumpsuit but I don't think it is.

TOBIN: Is it a romp-him? Is that a thing or is that just the one ...

JP: Why do we need to gender our rompers, you know? It's just like ...

TOBIN: Fair. [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: So JP, the thing that you are here to do, that some would argue that you do best of all, is give advice.

JP: They’re right. [CROWD LAUGHS]

KATHY: God. The confidence of this man.

JP: You have to be! People —

KATHY: I want it.

JP: If you want people to listen to you as an advice columnist you can't for a second be like, “Oh I don't know … maybe you should break up with him? I don’t know. You pick, I don’t know.” No. Break up with him. [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Our first question is from listener Britney.

[SOUNDBITE]

BRITNEY: Hi Nancy. I identified strongly as a sexual from age 13 until my mid-20s. Then I found myself sexually attracted to a man which called into question everything I thought I knew about myself. And now I find myself attracted to men and women but I'm also married to a man. So what am I? Am I queer, or am I just straight? I had identified so strongly as asexual that I don't know how to deal with these new labels. Thanks!

TOBIN: JP. How would you advise Britney on the changing of the labels and how to think about that and deal with it?

JP: I think it's very queer to be stressed about being queer. [CROWD LAUGHS]

KATHY: Oh my god, alright, show over. [LAUGHS]

JP: Next, no. [LAUGHS] No. But it's like, girl, if you're stressing this much over it every single day, that’s very queer. [LAUGHS] I don't think, like, some straight person’s going home everyday, like, “Oh no, I'm straight again. [LAUGHS] Woke up today slightly more straight or less straight than I was before … ? How do I deal with this?” No, I mean, yeah, you're queer. You're nervous. You're anxious. You’re goin’ through it.

TOBIN: I am curious … The thing that, like, stuck out to me about Brittney's question that I think happens to a lot of people is, like, the fear of other people's judgment. If you identified one way and then maybe it changes for you and then you feel like somebody in your life is judging you … which, I would say, get rid of that person immediately.

KATHY: Yeah.

JP: Yeah. And I also think everyone is really obsessed with, like, sort of finding their letter as if, like, “Okay. It will allot me these superpowers that I've chosen for the rest of my life. Can't switch them after that! I’ve pledge my allegiance to the letter G or L or whatever it is.” You don't have to do that! You know, it's like, if you figure out that, “Oh I'm this. No. Upon further inspection I'm that.” Like, that's allowed. No one's going to tell you to stop — well, someone will. [LAUGHS] But don't listen to them! Some people will, actually, I take that back. But that doesn’t mean they’re right.

TOBIN: First one down.

JP: Woo!

KATHY: Alright. This second question is from somebody anonymous. My question is, “How to tell a potential sexual partner that I've never had partnered sex. I never wanted to have sex with men when I was younger but by the time I realized sex with woman was an option I was already almost 30. I'm not sexually illiterate — I have plenty of experience with masturbation but I've never actually done it. How would I tell someone I'm dating that this is the case? I'm really afraid of being judged but I also want to be honest.”

JP: Um, I think you just tell them, and if they judge you for that, then they're not a great person.

KATHY: Get outta here.

JP: I mean — I mean, there is something to say about, like, you know, wanting your partner to come with a certain level of experience or whatever … but at the same time we all start somewhere.

KATHY: It’s true.

JP: And I think if you can't openly communicate with your partner about stuff like that, I mean, you're dealing with a communication problem. Not a “I'm not experienced enough” problem.

[TOBIN AND KATHY MAKE “WOOSH” SOUNDS, CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: That was good. That was really good.

JP: Also I think that people tend to — even if we're queer ourselves — sort of mystify queer sex. Where it's like, it's this heightened other magical thing with a series of steps that we don't even know what it is. How does it work? And, actually, mine anyway works pretty straightforward. [LAUGHS] It's like, I came out, I started doing it, and I was like … [DISAPPOINTED] “Oh.” [CROWD LAUGHS] I was kind of hoping for something better. But … there it is.

KATHY: You know what, same. Same, Okay.

TOBIN: I'm so sorry, you guys. [LAUGHS]

KATHY: What was it like for you? Was it magical? [PAUSE] You don’t have to share. It’s fine. I don't want to know. It's too much.

TOBIN: Was it bad … ? Uh. Yeah, sure.

JP: You don't remember it, but …

[CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: No, it was with, uh … a first boyfriend in college.

JP: Ooh.

KATHY: Wait, was he the one that made you dress up in all the jean jacket-pants combo? [CROWD LAUGHS]

JP: What?! [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: We used to wear matching jeans [CROWD LAUGHS] and matching jean jackets.

JP: Yours was magical! I take it back! [CROWD LAUGHS]

TOBIN: It was the photo of — remember the photo of Britney and Justin when they were in, like, head-to-toe denim together?

KATHY: [DRAWN OUT, LOVING IT] Yes!

JP: Ahh!

TOBIN: That’s, like, kind of what it was.

KATHY: Magical.

JP: Mine was a trucker. [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: [FASCINATED] Really?

JP: Like, off a literal truck stop between Texas and Oklahoma.

TOBIN: Ugh, wig.

JP: We — we should move on. [LAUGHS]

KATHY: Yeah, yeah. Alright. Alright. Next — next question.

[SOUNDBITE]

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Greetings fellow Nancy-ites from the other side of the world, New Zealand! My query is that by being actively religious I am often judged as being a bad gay and supporting a pillar of queer discrimination and oppression. Should I keep my faith in the closet? How might I react in a more healthy and positive way when I feel attacked online by my queer family without being drawn into the hateful vortex of trolls?

JP: Uh, it’s complicated because I think a lot of queer people move through life with a lot of baggage and trauma that have been inflicted on them from the church and sometimes we need to let out steam. I, for one, went to a Catholic school for, like, the first several years of my life. My early education began there. It was very scarring. And so I do have feelings towards the Catholic Church. But I would never tell a queer Catholic person that they're doing it wrong, or that they need to give it up, or that their faith has any of my business. So I think it's — it’s twofold. Like, yeah, it's very wrong if someone's approaching this person and being like, “No you need not be religious anymore because that's not what a good gay does.” And I think he should probably understand that some people do need to vent about religion and do need to sort of get that out of their system if they've had bad experiences. I'm also very against the term “bad gay.”

TOBIN: Yes! Oh my god. I — I hate that term “bad gay” so much.

JP: Like, what does that mean? It just — it just implies this criteria that none of us really like sat down and wrote out. It's always the people who are like, “I don't watch Drag Race, am I a bad gay?” Yes. [CROWD LAUGHS] Because you just said that. And that's why you're bad. It has nothing to do with watching a TV show or dressing a certain way or not painting your nails or not going out or not being part of the scene. You just suck. [CROWD LAUGHS] And it’s completely independent of all those things because you use that friggin’ term.

TOBIN: I will say, I do enjoy the image of like like if Kathy piddled on the stage I could be like, [CLAPPING AS IF AT A MISBEHAVING PET] “BAD GAY. Bad gay!”

JP: Like a water sprinkler thing, like … [TOBIN AND JP LAUGH]

KATHY: Why am I the one? [LAUGHS]

JP: It’s you, you’re the bad one!

TOBIN: You’re the closest. You’re the closest.

JP: That is such a subjective thing. Like, to one person, a bad gay is someone who doesn't watch Drag Race. And to Mike Pence it's all of them. So, like, why are we using it? [ALL LAUGH] It’s just not a good metric, it's not good.

KATHY: Just a last note for Russell is … maybe also don't talk to the trolls online.

JP: [AFFIRMATIVELY] Mmm.

KATHY: Just log off! Log off the internet, you guys. It could be a trash fire out there.

JP: Mhm.

TOBIN: Uh, next up is Jamie …

KATHY: Jamie? Or is it Hannah?

TOBIN: Hannah. Hannah!

JP: Woah, they just checked you. [CROWD LAUGHS]

[SOUNDBITE]

HANNAH: Hi, Nancy! My name’s Hannah and I’m a 19 year-old gay woman from Tennessee. I've been dating the best woman in the world for two years now and I’m dying to show her off. We graduated high school and stayed together through the start of college. Um, the only problem is that I live in Tennessee. So, I’ve told my parents and they’re working on being okay with it, but the real issue is my work life. So, I'm a waitress at a conservative Hispanic restaurant and everyone is constantly asking about my love life. It's gotten so bad that I’ve constructed multiple fake romances to cover my queerness. The lies have gotten so intricate that now they want to meet this mystery man to welcome him into the religious community. I'm screwed. Please help!

KATHY: What — what would — what would you do?

JP: I'm stressed. [CROWD LAUGHS] I mean — I mean, just sort of, like, she said multiple people, multiple romances, so you kind of have to condense all that into this one person who is a gender they didn't expect? [CROWD LAUGHS] I would go the route where it's like: “This was a social experiment, you've all failed.” [CROWD LAUGHS]

KATHY: That's amazing.

JP: You have to deal with the lie part first, then you can get to the “This is my partner” part second, I think.

TOBIN: So, there's nothing to do besides fess up.

JP: [UNCERTAIN, DRAWN OUT] Yes?

KATHY: Unpack … Un — unpack that?

JP: It’s just always scary, like, the truth will set you free … unless your , like, neighbors are homophobes. [LAUGHS] So, it’s like, it's always a little complicated where it's like, “No, come out. Show them your girlfriend. It will be great!” Because that’s, like, you know … that's advice I would give to someone in a world where there's no repercussions to coming out.

TOBIN: I — Question for the panel. Has anyone made up a partner before?

JP: Ooh. I've made up several women.

TOBIN: Yeah?

KATHY: Have you?

JP: Like, yeah. When I was, like, in high school and middle school I was just like, “Yeah I have a girlfriend!” because people were bullying me. So, I was like, “Yeah. Her name is [INVENTING THE NAME ON THE SPOT] … Kaitlyn … [CROWD LAUGHS] She's a cheerleader.” [LAUGHS] But stuff like that. Nothing, like, intricate.

TOBIN: My grandfather on my dad's side, who I love dearly, uhh … towards the end of his life, he had advanced dementia — this is going to take a dark turn for a second — [CROWD LAUGHS] so he, like, he lost most of his memory for, like, the last couple years of his life. And, you know, we just sort of had to deal with that. But through the fog of whatever it was that he was experiencing, he still knew to ask me every time, “Do you have a girlfriend?” [CROWD LAUGHS] I was like, “What fucking twist of fate is this [CROWD LAUGHS] that the only thing he can remember to ask is if I'm straight or not?” [CROWD LAUGHS]

KATHY: So, what’d you say?

TOBIN: I mean, at that point, what can you say, besides, “No, not yet.” [CROWD LAUGHS] Which is not a lie! [CROWD LAUGHS]

[MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: So, with that, we wanna thank JP for being here.

KATHY: JP!

[AUDIENCE APPLAUSE]

JP: Thank you.

TOBIN: We want to thank all of you. Thanks for coming out.

KATHY: Thanks for being here.

TOBIN: Have a great rest of the night.

KATHY: That was JP Brammer, live in New York City. You can follow him on Twitter. He’s @jpbrammer.

[MUSIC ENDS]

[CREDITS MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: Okay friends, that was our show of live shows!

KATHY: If you want to see us live, head over to nancypodcast.org/events to see where we’ll be next.

TOBIN: By the way, special thanks this week to all the people who made the two live shows you just heard possible — especially Melissa Lent and superstar producer emeritus Matt Collette.

KATHY: Thanks to our events coordinator, Alicia Allen, and everyone at The Tank and The Bell House. And to Ania Grzesik, for helping mix this episode.

TOBIN: Alright, credits!

KATHY: Our producer —

TOBIN: Alice Wilder!

KATHY: Production fellow —

TOBIN: Temi Fagbenle!

KATHY: Sound designer —

TOBIN: Jeremy Bloom!

KATHY: Editor —

TOBIN: Jenny Lawton!

KATHY: Executive producer —

TOBIN: Paula Szuchman!

KATHY: I’m Kathy Tu.

TOBIN: I’m Tobin Low.

KATHY: And Nancy is a production of WNYC Studios.

[CREDITS MUSIC ENDS]

AUTOMATED VOICEOVER: [VERY QUICKLY] Superstar producer Matthew Paul Collette is no longer an employee of the Nancy podcast. The views expressed by Matthew Collette in no way represents [sic] the views of Tobin Low, Kathy Tu, nor does the podcast make any claims, promises, or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of superstar producer Matthew Collette’s excellent work. We wish him the best. [BEEPING NOISE]

 

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