[SOUNDS OF A KEYBOARD CLACKING]

KATHY: Tobin?

TOBIN: Kath?

KATHY: What — what are you doing?

TOBIN: Googling old sex ed videos.

[CLIP FROM OLD SEX ED VIDEOS PLAYS]

[VIDEO ONE STARTS]

NARRATOR 1: Lots of young people have some sort of homosexual experience in their lives. It doesn’t really mean anything!

TEEN CHARACTER: It doesn’t mean that they’re gay?

NARRATOR 1: No.

[VIDEO ONE ENDS, VIDEO TWO STARTS, WITH OLD-TIMEY FLUTE MUSIC]

NARRATOR 2: One never knows when the homosexual is about. He may appear normal, and it may be too late when you discover he is mentally ill.

[CLIPS END WITH THE SOUND OF A COMPUTER TRACKPAD CLICKING, AS IF TURNING THE VIDEO OFF]

KATHY [APPALLED]: Good god!

TOBIN: Yeah, not good.

[THEME MUSIC STARTS]

VOX 1: From WNYC Studios, you’re listening to “Nancy.”

VOX 2: With your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

TOBIN: So, it’s no secret that in a lot of places, the way sex ed is taught right now is really bad — especially for queer people.

KATHY: Yeah.

TOBIN: But let’s imagine for a second what would happen if we gave teens comprehensive sex ed.

KATHY: It could actually change people’s lives.

TOBIN: Mhm.

KATHY: Especially queer people who might not even know they’re queer.

TOBIN: Right. And there are a lot of states that have started to recognize that. California’s Department of Education just revamped all of its sex ed guidelines to be more LGBTQ-friendly. In Arizona, the governor recently repealed a law that prohibited education around HIV and AIDS in public schools. [PAUSE, BEAT] But getting sex ed bills passed is not easy. Even trying to make sex ed a tiny, tiny bit more inclusive can generate huge political firestorms. That’s what lawmakers in Colorado discovered this spring, when they introduced a bill that — among other things — would make sex ed standards more inclusive for queer students.

MATT: This was one of the most contentious pieces of legislation that I [PAUSE] reported on this year.

KATHY: This is Matt Bloom. He’s a reporter for KUNC, a public radio station in Colorado, and he covered the fight over that bill.

MATT: There were some pretty ridiculous things that people said it did.

TOBIN: Wait, I want to hear the ridiculous things that people were saying.

MATT: Like, a woman said in a public hearing that the new curriculum would make schools teach kids about [INCREDULOUS] fisting — which it does not at all.

WOMAN FROM PUBLIC HEARING [RECORDED]: Fisting.

MATT: She then proceeded to describe the act of fisting in detail.

WOMAN FROM PUBLIC HEARING [RECORDED]: Fisting is when you take your fist, and you shove it up somebody’s anus. Up to your … wrist. You can go up to your elbow!

TOBIN: [WHEEZES IN SHOCK] That was a choice! I am blushing. [BOTH LAUGH]

MATT: Uh, same.

[SLOW PERCUSSIVE MUSIC PLAYS]

KATHY: Even though the changes the sex ed bill actually proposed were pretty minor, the opposition was incredibly vocal.

TOBIN: But what really got Matt’s attention wasn’t the opposition. We’ll let him take it from here.

[GUITAR JOINS THE PERCUSSION IN THE BACKGROUND MUSIC]

MATT: A couple of months ago, I was listening to a public hearing on the sex ed bill at the Colorado State House. More than two hundred people had signed up to testify. It was cramped and tense. Representatives from groups in favor, like the ACLU and Planned Parenthood, were sitting next to groups opposed, like Focus on the Family. And near the middle of the hearing, a student got up to testify.

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

POLITICIAN: Watch — please introduce yourself, who you represent, and then share your testimony with us today.

ELIZABETH [ON THE MIC]: Alright. Thank you very much. I am Elizabeth Laffely and I [PAUSE] am here representing myself. I’m a student …

[ELIZABETH KEEPS TALKING AS MATT NARRATES]

MATT: Elizabeth introduced herself as a student at Palmer High School in Colorado Springs — and as a trans woman.

ELIZABETH [ON THE MIC]: I guarantee — without the comprehensive sex education I received during my middle school years, I would not be sitting here in front of you. In fact, I probably would be in a grave, with a gravestone of a name that I do not recognize.

MATT: It was really powerful testimony. Almost every newspaper in Colorado quoted Elizabeth in their coverage. And I wanted to know more about Elizabeth’s story. So, a couple weeks later, I drove to Colorado Springs. It’s a mid-sized city about an hour south of Denver.

MATT: Hello there! [SCREEN DOOR OPENS] Hi!

[MATT AND SUZANNE TALK]

MATT: Elizabeth’s mom, Suzanne, greeted me at the door, along with the family’s dog and cat. After a few minutes, Elizabeth joined us downstairs.

MATT: Hi! Good to meet you. Matt. I know you’re trying to wrangle —

ELIZABETH: Yeah…

MATT: Elizabeth is tall, with shoulder-length brown hair. She’s going to be a senior this fall and she’s on the speech-and-debate team. She started having inklings that she was trans back in middle school.

ELIZABETH: Okay, so fun story. [CHUCKLES] When I was in middle school, I really wanted to do sports, which is weird to think about now. I wanted to be on the volleyball team. And so I was like, “Mom, I want to be on the girls’ volleyball team,” um, and so I think that sort of got her questioning that. And so I think there was a moment when we were in the car and she was like, “Do you want to talk about your, like, gender identity [PAUSE] at all?” And at the time I was like, “No, I don't want to talk about my gender identity to anyone!” But, like, she could tell that something was up because I had told her — sometimes people confuse me for a girl — and I told her, “Don’t correct them.” Like, if they call me by female pronouns, don't correct them. Like, I’m fine with that.

MATT: Elizabeth had heard the word “trans” before. She was watching Project Runway once when her grandma pointed out a contestant and told Elizabeth, “That person’s trans.” But Elizabeth didn’t know what that word meant. All she knew was that the gender she grew up with didn’t feel right. She was confused and depressed. And she was cutting.

ELIZABETH: It’s something that I don’t necessarily like talking about and it’s something that, you know, is very difficult to talk about.

MATT: Meanwhile, Elizabeth’s mom, Suzanne, had kind of made it a tradition to put her kids through a sex ed course outside of school. It started with Elizabeth’s older brother. He came home from school one day and said his health teacher had showed the class a photo of an infected eyeball, supposedly from someone with untreated syphilis. It was a part of the school’s abstinence-only sex ed curriculum. Suzanne was appalled by the scare tactics. So she went searching for a fact-based sex ed course. And that’s how she found OWL.

[PIANO MUSIC PLAYS IN THE BACKGROUND]

MATT: It stands for “Our Whole Lives.” It’s a year-long program developed by the Unitarian Universalist Church. The goal of the course is to teach kids about self-acceptance and help build self-esteem. When it came time for Elizabeth to go, at the start of eighth grade, she was not excited about the idea.

ELIZABETH: I think my mom might have walked me in just to — to, like, meet the instructor, like, "She's very high-maintenance." [LAUGHS] And of course it wasn't “she” at the time, but, like, “She's having a moment,” like, “She's upset that she has to be here, so keep an eye on her. Make sure she doesn't run away.” [LAUGHS]

MATT: The class opened with Candace, the youth pastor, asking everyone to introduce themselves.

ELIZABETH: She was like, “So, we're gonna go around the room and everyone is going to say their name, what grade they are, the school they're going to, and their pronouns.” And I was like, “What?! Pro- Pronouns? No one's ever asked me to share those before.” So eventually I'm like, “I’m Eliz—” — not Elizabeth. I say the name I used to go by — “and I go by they/them pronouns.” ’Cause I was still confused about my own pronouns at the time. I didn’t know if I was female and wanted to go by female pronouns. So, this was sort of the happy middle ground that I decided to go with at the time.

MATT: When you said “they/them,” what — how — how did that feel?

ELIZABETH: It felt good. And no one else in the room had known me as they/them pronouns. So, um, they were like, “Okay, they/them pronouns. That's good with us,” um, which was interesting. I expected people to be less okay with it for some reason, even though our church is generally very queer-friendly.

MATT: Despite feeling good about being open in that moment, Elizabeth didn’t really warm up to the class. They went over anatomy, puberty, sexually transmitted infections. Then, a couple months into the course, her mom dropped her off like normal …

ELIZABETH: And I remember walking in and they hand out these sheets and they're called “the Genderbread Man” — or “Genderbread Person,” not “Man,” because it was like, “You can be so many genders!” and how you can be a male or a female or neither or both, and I thought that was really cool.

MATT: With what she learned in OWL, Elizabeth started to feel more comfortable opening up about her gender confusion. The class was a safe space for her to be herself — or at least more of herself than she could be at home or at school. Then, OWL ended.

ELIZABETH: Like, I had my weekends back, so I didn't have to, like, go to a three-hour course every weekend, which was good. You know, I had more time to sit at home and watch Netflix. [SHARP INHALE, SHORT CHUCKLE] But at the same time, it was like, “This was a group of people that I was actually out with and so now I have to go back to the real world, um, and I don't have that outlet anymore, of being out.”

MATT: That’s when she realized something.

[ETHEREAL MUSIC SOFTLY PLAYS IN THE BACKGROUND]

ELIZABETH: Now I have to tell more people, because I like this feeling of being out. Now I have to do it on a larger scale.

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

MATT: Her chance came a couple weeks later, during her eighth-grade graduation. A teacher had asked her to be the graduation speaker. And Elizabeth said yes. The week before the ceremony, she tagged along to run errands with her mom. They pulled up to Old Navy, where Suzanne was gonna buy a new dress. And in the car, Elizabeth asked if she could get one too. Even though they still hadn’t talked, Suzanne had kind of sensed that this moment was coming. she said, “Sure, why not?” So Elizabeth bought a dress.

ELIZABETH: It was this very loose-fitting red dress. It was sort of like a red fabric tube, almost. Um, [LAUGHS] so, like, a very basic dress.

MATT: How did you know it was the right dress?

ELIZABETH: I think ‘cause it was like, long enough to cover up my gross-looking legs. [LAUGHS]

MATT: The day of graduation, Elizabeth wore her red dress, and a friend did her makeup at a lunch table in the cafeteria. They did lipstick, blush, eye makeup. She says the speech itself wasn’t her best oratory work. But she didn’t get booed. No one said anything mean. In fact, after the whole ceremony, a classmate that she didn’t even know very well ran after her in the parking lot.

ELIZABETH: And she was like, “Oh, I'm so glad you haven't left yet!” and she gives me this multicolored flower. It was a rainbow rose, um, she’s like, “You know, I thought you were the perfect person to give this to.” And so that was a very very special moment.

MATT: It seems like you were able to do that, you know, in the clothes and in the makeup you felt most comfortable, because of the sex ed course. Is that how you see it?

ELIZABETH: Yeah, I would have never, like, dressed up and done makeup in front of all those people, and I would have never worn the dress in front of all those people if it weren't for OWL.

[QUIET, INSPIRATIONAL MUSIC PLAYS]

MATT: Today, Elizabeth is fully out to the world. She says she’s a totally different person than the confused, depressed middle schooler she remembers. She’s confident, outgoing. And even though she lives in Colorado Springs, which is a very conservative place, she says she lives her life in a queer-accepting, very sex-positive bubble. But earlier this year, during the fight over Colorado’s sex ed bill, that bubble got popped.

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

TOBIN: That’s coming up after the break.

KATHY: “Nancy” will be right back.

[WHISTLE]

[JAZZY BOUNCY MUSIC PLAYS]

MATT: In mid-February, Elizabeth heard about the sex ed bill through a text from Candace, the youth pastor who taught OWL.

ELIZABETH: She sent me the bill and was like, “Are you interested in speaking about this?”

MATT: Elizabeth clicked on the link and read through the confusing legal language. The key part — the one that made Candace reach out — was Section 2, which said, “Sex ed content standards must include resources, references, and information that are meaningful to the experiences and needs of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex communities.” It wasn’t like every school was going to start teaching courses like OWL, but it definitely looked like an improvement.

ELIZABETH: And I was like, “Yeah, sure! That sounds great!”

MATT: So, the morning of February 28th, Elizabeth woke up — like every other morning — and headed off to school. The plan was for Candace to pick Elizabeth after fourth period, AP Gov. They would make the one-hour drive north to the State House in Denver together. And at this point, Elizabeth had already written out her testimony. She had bullet points about the importance of safe sex practices, communication, and the definition of consent. She is on the debate team, after all. But as she sat in Starbucks, waiting to get picked up, she started really thinking about what she was going to say. And it all felt like the wrong approach.

ELIZABETH: I was thinking how that's so impersonal, and it doesn't really share my take on it, so it wouldn't have been as strong of a testimony. And that's why I decided to change it.

MATT: Shortly after Elizabeth decided to scrap her testimony, Candace pulled up. As they drove, Elizabeth was rewriting what she wanted to say in her head.

ELIZABETH: I'm [PAUSE] super anxious because … well, first, the anxiousness. The anxiousness? Well, first the angst came from not knowing what exactly I was going to say, and then it was like, “Oh, shoot! What I am going to say I've never said out loud before.”

MATT: When Elizabeth arrived at the statehouse, she was hyper aware of how out-of-place she was. This wasn’t OWL, or her middle school graduation. There were men and women in fancy suits, and the building itself was intimidating, with its tall granite columns and gold dome roof.

ELIZABETH: I have this binder in my hand, like, pretending to be prepared, [LAUGHS] you know, like, “I have important things in my binder!” but really it's just English homework.

MATT: And she didn’t have to wait long to hear the first negative comments. Just as the group finished going through security, she was grabbing her binder out of the X-ray tray …

ELIZABETH: And there's this lady behind us who's like, “I'm here to testify on the pervert bill, that's what I'm calling it.” Or, no, she said “the porn bill” is what she was calling it, and so the youth pastor pulls us aside and is like, “So that's the type of people who are going to be testifying with us. Like, against the bill. So prepare yourselves [PAUSE] for that.”

MATT: They walked up the steps up to the committee room and sat down, sort of in the back. Then the hearing started.

RHONDA FIELDS [ON THE MIC]: Senator Coram.

SEN. CORAM [ON THE MIC]: Thank you, madame chair.

MATT: The first person to speak was Don Coram. He’s a Republican state senator from a little town in southwest Colorado called Montrose. And he was co-sponsoring the bill — a fact that had upset a lot of conservatives.  

SEN. CORAM [ON THE MIC]: The last month has been challenging, to say the least. Many who speak, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” — unfortunately, they really do not live this.

Myself, my family, my friends have been accosted by people while walking down the street, in stores, and especially on social media.

I respect everyone’s First Amendment right of free speech. Unfortunately, truth has been the first victim.

MATT: On paper, Coram looks like an unlikely candidate to co-sponsor this bill. He represents a really conservative part of the state. One that’s voted Republican in every presidential election since Lyndon Johnson. But here’s the thing about Coram — he’s used to ruffling feathers.

SEN. CORAM: Yeah, I’m a — I’m a little different. I'm a redneck Republican, but, you know, a few years ago, I ran the long-acting reversible contraceptives, cut the abortion rate by 64%, pregnancy rate, um, saved the state about $70 million so far.

MATT: So, when Democrats took control of Colorado’s House and Senate earlier this year, and Coram heard they were planning on introducing the sex ed bill, he signed on, hoping to make some tweaks. The blowback was swift at first, but manageable. People were calling his office and stopping him on the street to tell him why they didn’t like the bill. Someone even sent graphic pictures of gay porn to his Senate email.

[SOFT MUSIC PLAYS IN THE BACKGROUND]

MATT: But then something happened that made him wonder if he had miscalculated how far people would be willing to go to stop the bill. Coram remembers it as a crisp winter day in Denver. He was headed to his office after an afternoon on the Senate floor when he got a phone call. It was his wife.

[MUSIC ENDS]

MATT: I mean, do you remember the first words she said to you on the phone?

SEN. CORAM: I can’t use those on the radio.

MATT: What was it like “Holy shit!” or something?

SEN. CORAM: Uh, yeah, something like that.

MATT: “Holy shit, there’s a guy in our driveway.”

SEN. CORAM: Yeah. “Holy shit! There’s somebody hiding behind the pickup.”

MATT: Coram’s wife, Diana, was in her car, in the driveway of their home in Montrose.

MATT: How did she describe her — him?

SEN. CORAM: Totally dressed in tan. Head to toe.

MATT: Coram listened, helpless, as Diana locked the doors of her Cadillac. Eventually, when the stranger didn’t leave, she decided the best course of action was to confront the guy.

SEN. CORAM: She remarked to the guy, “Do you have a gun?” And the next thing was, "Well, I do." That was her [MEANING DIANA HAS A GUN] comment. “It would be best if you leave now.”

MATT: What do you think he was trying to do? Was he trying to send a message, like, about the bill?

SEN. CORAM: You know, I think it — maybe it's just intimidation-type thing that, you know, “Here I am, and there you are,” and I don't know.

MATT: But this was right when you were really advocating for this bill and your amendments.

SEN. CORAM: That was in the heat of the battle. Yes.

MATT: Coram said the whole incident really shook him up. It made him question whether to keep supporting the sex ed bill. But he’s not really the type of person to back down from a fight. And even though he was sponsoring the bill mostly to make sure there was a conservative voice at the table, he also does really believe that teaching inclusion is important.

SEN. CORAM: In the last probably 18 months, I’ve had three people who I actually know in my district that’s either had a child or a grandchild commit suicide. So, I — I think we need to really sit down and talk about acceptance and tolerance of others who are different than we are.

SEN. CORAM [ON THE MIC]: Syphilis and gonorrhea rates are skyrocketing …

MATT: So, back at the State House, Elizabeth is sitting in the committee room, listening to Coram talk about all the harassment he’s received for sponsoring the bill, and then she gets to hear firsthand how angry people are about the idea of making sex ed even a little bit more comprehensive and inclusive.

DENNIS CLERMONT [ON THE MIC]: I have an issue with teaching lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender lifestyles and values.

BURT YELLIN [ON THE MIC]: The desire of those who push this agenda is to increase that percentage in our society, over the objections of parents.

MATT: Some of it was really shocking to Elizabeth —

EVELYN ZIER [ON THE MIC]: This is child abuse, in my opinion.

MATT: — but some of it she had trouble taking seriously.

[A CLIP OF BJ JONES TESTIFYING, WITH ELIZABETH STEPPING IN TO EXPLAIN WHAT SHE HEARD]

BJ JONES: My name is BJ Jones, I’m representing myself …

ELIZABETH [EXPLAINING]: Yeah, so it was a school up in Boulder, I want to say.

BJ JONES: … This past November, I attended my daughter’s first grade class at her school during a planned transgender-promoting event. …

ELIZABETH [EXPLAINING]: And parents got really mad.

BJ JONES: … The entire school — from kindergarten on up — had a school assembly with an original musical performed by a transgender choir. The main character was a gender-conflicted raven who didn’t feel like a girl on the inside. The raven goes to Dr. Squirrel, who changes the raven from a girl to a boy. The choir had the kids recite with them, over and over again, the chant of “Who we are on the inside is who we are.”

ELIZABETH [EXPLAINING]: It was very funny that parents were getting so angry about it. And they were saying it so seriously, like, [IN A MOCK-PANICKED VOICE] “We can't have our children learning about the transgender raven!” [GIGGLES]

MATT: Elizabeth sits there listening to all of this. 2 PM goes by … 3 PM … 4. she takes a bathroom break and gets out her headphones and starts listening to music.

ELIZABETH: It was “Transgender Dysphoria Blues” by Against Me. And so it was a very — a very fitting choice of music at the time.

[“Transgender Dysphoria Blues” BY AGAINST ME PLAYS] MUSIC IN THE CLEAR. “YOUR TELLS ARE SO OBVIOUS / SHOULDERS TOO BROAD FOR A GIRL …”]

ELIZABETH: Because, you know, I always fear whenever I go out in public, whenever I'm at school, that people are not going to see me for, you know, who I am or who I feel like, [PAUSE, BREATH] just because of who I am physically.

MATT: Finally, after more than four hours of waiting, it’s Elizabeth’s turn to testify. Even as she’s walking up through the crowd of angry people, she still doesn’t completely know what she wants to say.

[SOME INDISTINCT CHATTER AS ELIZABETH GETS TO THE MIC]

ELIZABETH [TESTIMONY]: Alright, thank you very much.

MATT: Elizabeth had her purple binder and the original testimony, but she flipped it over on the table so she couldn’t read it.

[ELIZABETH EXPLAINS HER TESTIMONY AS WE HEAR/READ IT]

ELIZABETH: I'm sort of looking at the senators who are sitting in the committee and, like, looking back and forth between the senators just so I can get a wide range and make eye contact with all of them to make sure that my testimony is the most powerful that it can be.

ELIZABETH [TESTIMONY]: I was born male. And throughout my life I have worked hard to become the person you see in front of you today.

ELIZABETH: Because I’m a public speaker and I do it so often, I don’t normally get stage fright like that anymore. But for some reason, this [PAUSE] scared me.

ELIZABETH [TESTIMONY]: This is hard for me because it’s something I’ve never said out loud, but [PAUSE, BREATH] because of this lack of education, I was thrown into what I can only describe as a depression. And because of this lack of education, I still have scars on my body from where I used to cut when I was younger.

ELIZABETH: And I’m looking back and forth between them and they’re like, “Okay.” And then, as I get to some of the more serious subject matter in my speech, their faces look a bit more concerned and some of the senators take out their phones to take a picture of me. Which was interesting, I didn't know they could do that. But alright! I didn't let it faze me. So I kept going looking back and forth between them and just seeing their — their faces.

ELIZABETH [TESTIMONY]: Which is why I can only urge you to vote “Yes” on this bill, because there are thousands of children like me who don’t know what they are. And comprehensive sex education can help them define that. Help them discover.

[DRONE-LIKE MUSIC STARTS]

MATT: Her whole testimony lasted less than five minutes. The Senators asked a few questions, and then the next people came up to testify. The car ride home was mostly a blur. When they finally got back to Colorado Springs, Elizabeth and Candace sat in the car while Elizabeth processed what had just happened.

[MUSIC ENDS]

ELIZABETH: I was fairly emotional at that point because I was actually getting a chance to think about what I had said, and I was like, “Oh, shoot,” and so I’m, like, breathing really heavily, and I — I’m sure I was crying a little bit, because there were tears. Um. It was interesting, to sort of bring up emotions from that period of time when I didn't know who I was and when [PAUSE] I was [PAUSE] very unsure of my gender identity. It was very odd to relive that.

MATT: Odd, but cathartic. She didn’t know for sure if her testimony had made any difference. But she knew it mattered to her.

ELIZABETH: The very fact that I'm here identifying as female proves why comprehensive sex ed is so important! Because it shows that, you know, I can be out as who I want to be, and it's a positive thing.

MATT: After I interviewed Elizabeth, I checked on the bill’s progress almost every day. Days, weeks went by … nothing. The bill didn’t budge. And it looked like Colorado students might not be getting more comprehensive sex ed after all.

[THE SOUND OF THE COLORADO SENATE FLOOR, WITH A VOICE SAYING, “THE SENATE WILL COME TO ORDER.”]

MATT: But then …

[A VOICE SAYS, “MR. GOVERNOR, PLEASE CALL THE ROLL.”]

MATT: On the last day of the legislative session, it finally made it to the floor. In a rush of last-minute amendments, senators gutted several pages of the bill. But the part that requires that the experiences of LGBTQ people be included in Colorado’s sex ed content standards — that stayed intact. And then, the Senate voted.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: With 21 “Ayes,” 14 “No” votes, 0 absent, and 0 excused, House Bill 10-32 is passed.

[THE GAVEL HITS]

MATT: Other than Coram, only one Republican senator voted “Yes.” And afterwards, Coram told me he was done pushing sex ed bills. The whole thing took too much of a toll on his family. But when I called Elizabeth, she was still happy that she had testified — and she hoped it made a difference.

ELIZABETH [ON THE PHONE]: I didn’t necessarily know if it would pass, but I’m super happy that it did.

[LIGHTLY JAZZY SLOW MUSIC PLAYS]

MATT: Colorado’s Governor Jared Polis, the first openly gay governor in US history, signed the bill into law last week. Starting this fall, schools will either have to teach more inclusive sex ed, or not teach it at all. It’s not like they’ll all be teaching courses like OWL, the course Elizabeth went through. [PAUSE, BREATH] The standards aren’t that comprehensive. But it’s something.

[MUSIC]

TOBIN: Matt Bloom is a reporter for KUNC, a public radio station in Colorado.

[LIGHTLY JAZZY MUSIC ENDS, CREDITS MUSIC STARTS]

KATHY: Alright, credits!

TOBIN: Producer —

KATHY: Zakiya Gibbons.

TOBIN: Production fellow —

KATHY: Temi Fagbenle.

TOBIN: Editor —

KATHY: Stephanie Joyce.

TOBIN: Sound designer —

KATHY: Jeremy Bloom.

TOBIN: Executive producer —

KATHY: Paula Szuchman.

TOBIN: I’m Tobin Low.

KATHY: And I’m Kathy Tu.

TOBIN: And “Nancy” is a production of WNYC Studios.

[CREDITS MUSIC ENDS]

UNNAMED POLITICIAN: Ma’am?

“FISTING” WOMAN (FROM EPISODE START): Yes?

UNNAMED POLITICIAN: Uh … I can’t quite figure out where this is going —

“FISTING” WOMAN: This is not a healthy relationship! This is — actually …

UNNAMED POLITICIAN: Is this to the bill?

“FISTING” WOMAN: Um, I’ve got another one on rimming, and I’ve got another one on golden showers. But I can actually move onto another topic if you’d like me to …

 

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