KATHY: Tobin.

TOBIN: Kathy.

KATHY: I love mail.

TOBIN: [LAUGHS] Do you?

KATHY: I do.

TOBIN: Like, physical mail?

KATHY: Yeah. I've committed mail fraud in the past.

TOBIN: Wait, how did you commit mail fraud?

KATHY: As a child, I might have participated in a pyramid scheme under the impression that I was going to earn money.

[MUSIC ENTERS]

TOBIN: I learn a new thing about you every day. [KATHY LAUGHS] What?!

KATHY: I got a letter from the USPS saying, "Cease and desist!" [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Okay, anyway...

KATHY: Okay!

TOBIN: Why are we talking about mail in the first place?

KATHY: Because we get mail at Nancy!

TOBIN: We do! We get emails, we get tweets, we get Facebooks, and reading all of those messages is our social media producer extraordinaire, Caroline English!

CAROLINE: Hey, guys!

TOBIN & KATHY: Hi, Caroline!

CAROLINE: People love the show. People are sharing really personal things with us.

TOBIN & KATHY: Aww, that's great!

CAROLINE: Yeah, it's really sweet.

TOBIN: Thanks, you guys!

KATHY: Yeah!

TOBIN: That's really nice.

CAROLINE: But there's also some negative.

[MUSIC COMES TO AN OUT-OF-TUNE HALT]

TOBIN: What?

KATHY: How dare they?

[THEME MUSIC STARTS]

VOX 1: From WNYC Studios, this is Nancy.

VOX 2: With your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

[WHISTLE]

TOBIN: Okay. So, lots of messages. What're the things that you're hearing from people?

KATHY: Yeah. Tell us, Caroline.

CAROLINE: Okay, so I've been saving all of the messages that we've received, and then I've got them here on my laptop. We get a lot about the Gay Republican episode specifically.

TOBIN: Ah, yes.

KATHY: Oh boy.

TOBIN: So that episode followed gay conservatives as they tried to make the case that they were potentially the new voice of the LGBT movement in Donald Trump's America.

KATHY: Mhm.

TOBIN: And one of the characters in that piece, his name is Gregory T. Angelo, he's the head of the Log Cabin Republicans. He's sort of, like, a major voice in this gay conservative movement.

GREGORY: We are the only LBGT organization in the country that, uh ... supports preservation of our Second Amendment Constitutional rights. We're the only LGBT organization in the country calling for full repeal of Obamacare ...

CAROLINE: So we heard from one person named Patrick who's based in Thailand. He's an American ex-pat. And he said, "I was prepared to feel frustrated and uncomfortable, but listening to Gregory T. Angelo talk really got my back up, and I realized about halfway through it wasn't just that I disagreed with him. It was the hypocrisy. You pushed him on trans issues, but I wish you could've pushed him on other areas where the Republicans are horrid."

TOBIN: Yeah, I feel like that was a thing that we heard a lot after that episode came out.

KATHY: Mhm, absolutely.

TOBIN: People saying, "Why did you give these guys space? Why did you sort of let them talk out their positions on things?"

KATHY: Yeah.

TOBIN: And I think we came at it from a place of, y'know, they were making a pretty big claim after the election that they, as gay conservatives, had this "in" with the administration. And so part of that story, I think, came from a place of, like, "Okay. If that's what they say is gonna happen, we should test that out and follow them around for a little while and see what happens."

KATHY: Tobin, I am just gonna say this again. I'm so glad you took the lead on that story because I have such complicated feelings about it, and I totally get where Patrick is coming from.

[MUSIC IN]

KATHY: It is frustrating to hear people try to defend themselves in a way that sounds completely hypocritical.

TOBIN: I'm gonna go take a nap for 40 years now.

KATHY: Good.

[MUSIC UP AND OUT]

CAROLINE: So we just got a letter from a woman named Justine who feels like we've been dismissive in some of our approaches to lesbian identity. And when it comes to the very ends of the spectrum.

KATHY: Okay, yeah. I did a whole story about me working through what it means to be butch. I think what she's talking about here is my conversation with Lena Waithe, of Master of None fame.

LENA: Oh yeah, absolutely, of course. Why not?

KATHY: Up until this point, I -- I feel like lesbian representation on TV has always been either very femme and unbelievable ...

LENA: Mhm.

KATHY: Or super butch and kind of unbelievable.

CAROLINE: Justine wrote, "Would you think I was a dyke if you saw me walking down the street? I have long hair and long nails that literally have not been without polish for more than the time to switch colors in over 15 years. I can't tell you how powerful these expressions of femininity make me feel.”

KATHY: This is a great point, Justine. She's referring to -- in the middle of the interview that I had with Lena Waithe, I was asking her kind of about the way lesbians were portrayed on TV and how, generally, they're portrayed as very butch women or very ... very feminine women. And I think the point I was trying to make about it being unrealistic is that that's all we see on TV and that's not, in itself, realistic. And ... if I were to go back and do it again, I wouldn't put it so dismissively as if all butch women, all feminine women, are unrealistic. Because, obviously, they exist. Justine is an example of them! I would make my point more clearly that, in the media, it seems like those are the only two versions of lesbian women that exist. And that's just not -- that's just not real!

TOBIN: Yeah. You're talking about, like, that you wanna see a full spectrum!

KATHY: A full spectrum! A full Orange is the New Black of lesbian women.

TOBIN: Orange is the New Black is a great example.

KATHY: It is, yeah. And I understand that not every show can be that, but it seems like it's a shortcut to portray a lesbian woman by showing it that way.

TOBIN: So, we should say -- you mentioned the story about butch-ness.

KATHY: [AFFIRMATIVELY] Uh-huh!

TOBIN: You just recently got your hair cut.

KATHY: I did!

TOBIN: How are you feeling now?

KATHY: I feel great! I feel like it fits my face more.

TOBIN: It does.

KATHY: Showers are much shorter [TOBIN LAUGHS], I enjoy going to a barber, and I find that ... when I had long hair, I was constantly worried about whether or not I looked feminine enough and, uh, I would take it very personally if someone insinuated, even a little bit, that I wasn't. And now that I kind of present the way that I do, out in the world when somebody kind of, like, misgenders me, I don't take it so personally anymore.

[MUSIC IN]

TOBIN: Hit us with more feedback!

CAROLINE: Probably the most feedback from one episode in particular -- can you guess what it is?

TOBIN: Hmm. I have some thoughts, but go ahead and tell us.

KATHY: Mhm.

CAROLINE: Okay, this is from Logan on Twitter. "I've been enjoying @NancyPodcast a lot, but their recent episode about Harry Potter made me want to scream into my phone until it stopped!" [TOBIN LAUGHS]

KATHY: Why, Logan? Why?

TOBIN: Oh my god. People were so mad.

CAROLINE: They were so mad about this episode! There were pitchforks and flames outside of our door.

TOBIN: Mmm...

KATHY: Okay, so this is the episode in which, uh, superstar producer Matt claimed that Dumbledore might not be gay, as J.K. Rowling says that he is. And I think that, to defend himself, we need Matt in the studio! Get in here, Matt!

TOBIN: Come on in here, Matt!

MATT: [ENTERS PLAYING HARRY POTTER THEME ON KAZOO]

KATHY: Matt. How do you feel about the -- uh, what do we call this? Backlash?

TOBIN: The Harry Potter backlash.

KATHY: Backlash.

MATT: Oh my god, like, people were just, like, @ing J.K. Rowling on Twitter, just being like, "Get him!"

TOBIN: "Get him, J.K. Rowling!"

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MATT: And I was, like, really worried, 'cause first of all I was like, I already have a policy where I just don't engage with J.K. Rowling on Twitter. So, like, what would I do?

KATHY: Wait, wait, wait. [LAUGHS]  I like how you have a policy of not engaging with J.K. Rowling like she would engage with you.

TOBIN: How many times was she tweeting at you? [TOBIN AND KATHY LAUGH]

MATT: No, like, I had to unfollow J.K. Rowling on Twitter, like, a year ago because, like, the gay Dumbledore was the beginning of, like, an era of nonsense, where she would just be like, "Oh, Lupin being a werewolf is actually a metaphor for AIDS!" or, like, "{This character you don't care about} married {this character you don't care about}!" Oh, and every year she apologizes for killing a character.

TOBIN: Mhm.

MATT: Which is like ... it wouldn't be a story if you didn't kill these people! Like, she didn't murder these people! ... Does J.K. Rowling think she murdered these people?

KATHY: Matt, I really love the nerd rage, but I'm gonna bring it back. Matt, what do you say to your haters who are convinced that Dumbledore is gay?

MATT: I wish Dumbledore were gay. I wish that it was a meaningful part of the book. Because the sexual orientation of adults -- their romantic lives -- is a big part of the book! Like, it's the driving force of Severus Snape, who's, like, the most complicated character in the series. And it all boils down to, like, this childhood crush. And, like, that's the same thing Rowling says explains Dumbledore -- that this, like, crush he had as a very young man, like, kind of ruined love for him, and he's kind of incapable of doing it for now.

[MUSIC IN]

MATT: At the same time, Dumbledore's, like, the biggest proponent for love of all. And it actually, like, would be a great story, if this were part of it. And Rowling just, like, didn't actually put it there.

[MUSIC RISES TO A CRESCENDO]

TOBIN: Producer Matt Collette.

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

CAROLINE: One of the stories that got a huge amount of response was Sarah Lu's piece about finding her first queer role model.

[ACOUSTIC GUITAR FADES IN]

KATHY: And Sarah got to meet her in this story. That all started because of this song called, "Ring of Keys," from the musical Fun Home.

SARAH: When I heard it, I -- I cried a lot. I was just, like, totally transported back to being 12, and being in this store, and looking up at the storekeeper, Maura, and thinking, like, "Oh my gosh." And it's kind of like -- it was a very charged moment, and I was instantly taken back there.

KATHY: And after that piece aired, we actually heard from the musician who performed the song when Sarah first heard it. And she was in town this week.

[TRANSITION INTO ERIN'S INTERVIEW]

ERIN: I'm Erin McKeown. I'm a musician, writer, and producer, and ... a queer.

TOBIN & KATHY: Yes! [LAUGHING]

ERIN: I remember thinking, after I saw the show the first time, like, this must be what, like, straight people feel all the time when they see pop culture, in some ways.

KATHY: Huh. Yeah.

TOBIN: Oof! [LAUGHS]

ERIN: 'Cause they're not -- y'know, it was a moment for me at a musical that I didn't have to translate. And, um ... that was a real unique experience to me.

TOBIN: Well, so, then, how did it feel to hear Sarah's story and be like, "Oh my god. I gave this person this whole moment!"?

ERIN: So exciting! You know, the thing that I've learned, being a musician and performing for as many years as I've been performing is that you never have any idea who's in the room. Like, I just have to remember that, like, all the time. Like, even during, like, a hard show when there's like five people there. Like, one of those five people might be having an extraordinary experience.

TOBIN: And the parallels are so crazy. About, like, what you just said as a performer not knowing who's in the room, and Maura in the story -- like, that thing of, like, you never know what you mean to people just by living your life.

KATHY: Mhm.

ERIN: You never know what you mean to -- you never know what you mean to people. And I think, like, the thing that I also thought listening to that story was, "Well, what is my 'Ring of Keys' moment?" Like, I hadn't really -- as much as I've performed that song or saw that show, like, who was that person for me? Was it one person? Was it many people? When was it in my life? And I hadn't thought about that. And I've taken some time now, and I kinda figured out -- I do know now, who that person is.

KATHY: Ooh!

TOBIN: Who is it?

ERIN: I grew up in a small town in Virginia. And I had been playing guitar and writing songs and had started playing -- first started playing acoustic guitar when I was 12, and had switched over to the electric guitar in, y'know, my later teens. And I'm reading through our hometown newspaper, and I, y'know, just like, flip a page, and there's a picture in the paper of this woman, smiling and playing electric guitar. And it just caught my eye, and I just was like, "Well, who is that? What is that?" And that's when I had that moment of, like -- I couldn't articulate at the time -- but I was like, "That's what I wanna be! Like, a smiling woman, jamming out on the electric guitar." And it wasn't like she was playing an open C chord down at the neck -- she was just like "Wahh!" [MAKES ROCK 'N' ROLL SOUND] [ALL LAUGH] like somewhere high up on the neck. So, the picture was advertising a show. And so I went to the show and I introduced myself to the woman afterwards -- her name is Sarah Green -- and, um, we ended up having, like, a mentorship and a friendship, um, for a few years. And, uh, y'know -- and then it turned out that she was also with a woman. But I didn't know that from that picture. I didn't know all these different ways that my identity that I would eventually find were line up with what I saw in that first, like, flash of recognition.

TOBIN: Hmm.

KATHY: That's amazing.

TOBIN: Wow, I love that.

KATHY: I know.

TOBIN: So you're gonna play us a song!

ERIN: Yeah, I thought -- um, I thought it would be awesome if I played you guys a song called "The Queer Gospel."

TOBIN: Love it already.

KATHY: Mhm.

ERIN: Yeah, so, last year I was headed to North Carolina on tour and all that stuff with the bathroom bills was going on. And I wanted to bring a song with me for people. And, um, I love gospel music, and I love the uplift of it. I don't use it ironically at all. Like, I just love it and it matters in my own spiritual life. And so I wanted to write a gospel song for folks there who might feel "less than" because of what was happening.

TOBIN: Erin, I'm so excited to hear this song. So, take it away!

[ERIN MCKEOWN PLAYS "THE QUEER GOSPEL"]

Love us as we are

See us and we're holy

In this shall we, shall ever be

Wholly ourselves

Your love will take us far

Praise us and we'll show you

From heaven to the glory holes

Glorious and free

There are those who think we're wicked

There are those who call us names

Depraved, lost and sick and

Want to bathe us in shame

But we put the sin in sincere

We put the do in the doubt

God is perfectly clear

We are perfectly out

Love us as we are

See us and we're holy

In this shall we, shall ever be

Wholly ourselves

Your love will take us far

Praise us and we'll show you

From heaven to the glory holes

Glorious and free

I believe in the ritual of lipstick

The sanctity of my electric guitar

But it's cool if you're not that catholic

You can be wherever you are

Love us as we are

See us and we're holy

In this shall we, shall ever be

Wholly ourselves

Your love will take us far

Praise us and we'll show you

From heaven to the glory holes

Glorious and free

Everybody!

Love us as we are

See us and we're holy

In this shall we, shall ever be

Wholly ourselves

Your love will take us far

Praise us and we'll show you

From heaven to the glory holes

Glorious and free

According to us and was ever thus

Come join our jubilee

In this shall we, shall ever be

Glorious and free

[PARK AMBIENCE]

TOBIN: You can take this question any direction you want. How do you identify?

GUEST 1: Gosh. This is a tough question. [LAUGHS]

GUEST 2: Uhh. As a creative.

GUEST 3: I dunno. I think the thing that comes first to mind is male?

GUEST 4: Designer.

GUEST 5: Queer. [LAUGHS]

[BEAT]

GUEST 5: You're listening to Nancy! We'll be back after these messages.

[MIDROLL]

[MUSIC IN]

KATHY: Tobin.

TOBIN: Yes, Kathy?

KATHY: So, we've been talking about feedback we've gotten to the episodes we've aired so far.

TOBIN: Mhm.

KATHY: And I want to go back to a thing that I said all the way back in Episode 1 of our little podcast here.

TOBIN: Okay.

KATHY: And that is, when I was coming out to my mom, I told her this one thing:

KATHY: I mean, I'm not completely gay, but I'm mostly gay.

TOBIN: Ahh, yes. That could be confusing to people.

KATHY: Yes. Well, you know me, so you know what I'm talking about, but most people don't know what I'm talking about. I identify as "technically bi" in that I am attracted to men and women, but I only fall in love with women. So, to make that a little bit easier on myself, I just tend to round myself up to "gay" instead of actually saying that I'm bi. Because when I do say that I'm bi, there's so many assumptions that kinda jump in there that I don't wanna deal with.

TOBIN: Right. Well, and this gets said -- we're talking about listener feedback -- people write to us all the time and say, "Why aren't we talking about bisexual people more?"

KATHY: Mhm.

TOBIN: "Where are stories about bisexual people?"

KATHY: Yeah.

TOBIN: And we actually have wanted to talk about it. We're talking about it right now! Because there's, like, stuff that you're still figuring out.

KATHY: Yeah, I -- I mean, I feel guilty about it, because knowing that I'm bi and not saying that up front all the time makes me feel like I'm participating in bisexual erasure, in that I'm not acknowledging that bisexual people exist. But ... it's not that I'm not acknowledging that they don't [sic] exist, it's just that ... it's easier for me, sometimes, to say that I'm gay than have somebody question my actual identity.

TOBIN: Oh, like when people come at you with the, like, "Oh, you're just on a pit stop on the way to Gaytown."

KATHY: [LAUGHS]  Exactly. Or, other assumptions like, "You're just being selfish," or, "You just wanna sleep with everybody," which -- if you know me, Tobin, and you do -- that is not me!

TOBIN: That is not you at all!

KATHY: Yeah!

TOBIN: Well, and, like, I think about when I've heard bisexual people talk about their identity and I think it must be so hard to figure yourself out while people are constantly denying that you even exist.

KATHY: It's tough, Tobin. [SOFTLY LAUGHS] And you know who's currently trying to figure all of that out right now?

TOBIN: Uh, who is it?

MARA: Let's see. I write stuff and I do voices for stuff.

KATHY: It's Mara Wilson!

MARA: And I am a recovering child actor.

KATHY: When Mara was a kid, she was in Mrs. Doubtfire, Miracle on 34th Street ...

TOBIN: Oh, and she also -- wasn't she Matilda?

KATHY: She was Matilda.

[MATILDA CLIP] HARRY: Here's pie. How old is Matilda?

ZINNIA: How old?

MATILDA: I'm six and a half, Mommy!

ZINNIA: Five, then.

MATILDA: I was six in August.

HARRY: You're a liar.

KATHY: Mara’s 29 now, and she very, very recently came out on Twitter as bi. And one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to her is because of all the stuff we just talked about earlier. She’s navigating coming out as a bi woman, and facing all the messiness of that publicly.

[WHISTLE]

MARA: I fought it for a very long time. For a very, very long time. I think that I kept saying to myself that I had exceptions. And one of the excuses that I had was, "I can’t be queer because I already have too much going on."

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MARA: Which doesn’t make sense.

KATHY: What does that mean?

MARA: Well, you know, I think that I’d heard all my life, like, "Bisexual girls are crazy."

KATHY: Huh.

MARA: I’d heard that so many times.

KATHY: Yeah.

MARA: And I already was like, "Okay, well, people already think I’m crazy." So I can’t prove them right by admitting that, you know, I like girls as well as boys. And I like some people that don’t really fit into either category, you know? And so it was – I ... that was something that I had for a long time. I also felt like, "Okay, what would my family think?" Turns out my family didn’t care.

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MARA: I was very lucky there.

KATHY: Well, like, how young were you when you were starting to think about the possibility of being queer?

MARA: I think I was probably in middle school when I started to think about it, and I also noticed when I was young that like – my mom very much believed in marriage, but I didn’t. I didn’t really like the idea of getting married to a man. I thought the only reason I really wanted to do it was because it seemed like the easiest way to have children and I wanted to raise children.

KATHY: Okay. [LAUGHS]

MARA: But like I didn’t fantasize about boys that much, you know? I never – I never looked at like a muscular guy and, you know ... even all through my teenage years and was like “Oh, that’s what I want.” When I did it was like I was looking at a painting, you know? Like “Oh, this is nice, and I appreciate the work that went into this.”

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MARA: Also, I grew up on film sets, so of course I knew tons of gay people.

KATHY: Right. You’re surrounded.

MARA: Yeah, and I – you know, and then I think in high school I had . . . in high school I definitely had crushes, but I denied that for a very long time too. And there was actually a moment in high school that I had where, there were a couple times in high school that I fell under the spell of, like, a cool older girl.

KATHY: Oh my god. Yeah. [LAUGHS]

MARA: Yeah, so many times. And they would be kind of mean to me but I would keep coming back because they would, you know.

KATHY: Uh-huh.

MARA: And this happened – this happened multiple times, I think. And I remember once like, you know, I, like, got in trouble with my parents and she overheard and she came over to, like, give me a hug. And I said, “I love you.” And she said, “Aww, I love you too!” And I was like I thought about saying, “That’s not what I meant,” but I was like, “No, I can’t say that, because then I have to think about what I do mean.”

KATHY: Right.

MARA: You know? And so she kind of like broke away and was kind of awkward. And after that I noticed she, like, kind of withdrew.

KATHY: Yeah.

MARA: We weren’t really like close friends anymore.

KATHY: Yeah.

MARA: It was – it was, you know, like we couldn’t be ... we couldn’t be. But yeah, and for a long time I was just like “That wasn’t anything. That wasn’t anything.” And then well into my 20’s I was like “Okay, that was one thing.”

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MARA: And then – and then I was like okay, there were more than that, and there was more than that, and there was more than that. And yeah, okay. I was crying in my therapist’s office and she’s like “Is there anything you want to admit to? Because you know that this has been a thing for a very long time for you.”

KATHY: Huh.

MARA: And I said “I – you know, I guess I’m bisexual.” And she -- she also was like “Yeah, I know.” [LAUGHS]

KATHY: Even the therapist.

MARA: And it was funny because I’d been feeling depressed. And then I noticed as soon as I walked out that door that day that I didn’t feel depressed anymore. I just didn’t feel depressed. I didn’t feel lost. I didn’t feel confused. It very much felt like things were clear, which was nice. That was a really good feeling.

KATHY: For somebody like you, like, I come out to myself, to my family and friends, and then that’s sort of it.

MARA: Yeah.

KATHY: But you have to come out to yourself, to your family and friends, and then kind of, like, the public.

MARA: Yeah.

KATHY: There’s, like, an extra step for you.

MARA: So I was out to my family and friends, and, like I said, nobody was surprised.

KATHY: Yeah.

MARA: And then – and I was wondering, "Am I ever going to come out publicly?" And I thought, "Okay, well ... maybe it’ll happen sort of default, like, you know, someone’s in the public eye but they are just randomly dating a woman one day." So I was like, "Okay, maybe it’ll be that, and hopefully that woman will be Janelle Monae, but ..." Umm…

KATHY: Excellent choice, by the way.

MARA: [LAUGHS]  I love her so much. I like – I can’t look at like a photo of her without like, without like, sighing like Snow White or somebody.

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MARA: But yeah, I thought maybe it’ll just be that. And you know that way, I don’t need to worry. And it’s not like I’m a big paparazzi person. You know, I’m not Kristen Stewart. Nobody’s going to be following me around beaches to like, you know, to see me have my arm around a gal pal.

KATHY: Yeah.

MARA: Like nobody cares.

KATHY: Some people care. You were trending for a moment. [LAUGHS]

MARA: Exactly. Yeah. But enough people care that like I thought about it. Like, I was in – I think I was in a bar in Brooklyn once and there was a girl I was flirting with. And I was like “If something happened here, somebody could take a picture of it. Somebody could tweet about it.” And I worried about that for a while. So now I guess I don’t have to worry about that anymore.

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MARA: Because people will just be like “Oh, yeah, that’s Mara.”

KATHY: Well, going back a little bit, you came out officially on Twitter after the Orlando shooting. Can you just tell me a little bit about your decision to come out? Like, what were you feeling at the time?

MARA: I had gone through a very – I had a very rough few months. It was the 20 year anniversary of my mother’s death. It was – our family dog had just died and my grandmother had just died. And this all happened in a matter of weeks. I was grieving. I was – you know, we were -- it was a very hard time. And when I heard about the shooting, I felt just helpless. And when I feel helpless, I think I want to know, like, what I can do to help. But I can’t really explain what went through my mind at that time except that I think somebody called me out. Somebody was like, “Well, why were you in these gay spaces? You didn’t belong there. I don’t care how much an ally you think you are.” And they were angry and they were lashing out. And it was like – it was like a sitcom where you’re like “I’m not going to do this. I’m not going to do this.” And then somebody comes up and challenges you and you’re like “Oh yeah? Well what about this?”

KATHY: Yeah.

MARA: And I was like, "That was the wrong way to do this." And I knew it was the wrong way to do that. And I did have a lot of backlash from it. I had people saying “You were only doing this for attention. You’re co-opting a tragedy.” Somebody on, I think, Gawker -- when it was still around -- said that, you know, "calling myself a Kinsey two in the wake of a tragedy was paltry.” You know, which like, "Okay, well, you know, I don’t know who died and made you the LGBTQ police, but okay, dude."

KATHY: [LAUGHS]  I have so many thoughts about that.

MARA: Yeah, you know? And also – and also like a lot of my friends pointed out, there are athletes coming out, and when they’re like white men coming out then that’s fine. But god forbid a woman should be bisexual.

KATHY: Well, you mentioned this a little bit before. You know, being a bisexual person can be touchy for straight people and gay people.

MARA: Yeah, definitely.

KATHY: They either say, like, "You’re trying to get attention," or "You don’t exist"?

MARA: Yeah.

KATHY: Or, "You’re confused"?

MARA: Yeah. I remember thinking when I was very young, I thought to myself, you know, in some ways being bisexual makes more sense to me than, you know, than being straight or being gay. And I remember thinking to myself does everybody think that way? And probably not. [LAUGHS]

KATHY: No.

MARA: Probably not. No. Most people think you’re one way or you’re the other. But – but yeah, I . . . I do think that there’s still definitely a lot of stigma, and I know there’s still like, you know, there are a lot of women out there who wouldn’t want to date me because they don’t want to date somebody bisexual. And I don’t like that they feel that way, but you know, I -- I respect their feelings. I guess people have their preferences and people have their things they feel comfortable with. But it definitely is. The idea that like “Oh, you’re bisexual,” and it’s just like rolling your eyes. And it’s like okay, look, I’m 29. I know how to get attention. If I wanted to get attention, I could easily get attention. In fact I would kind of like to be left alone about it in some ways, you know? [LAUGHS]

KATHY: And instead I’m interviewing you all about it. [LAUGHS]

MARA: Well no, no, no. I mean like – no, but I mean like, you know, I don’t want to make out with someone at a party in front of a bunch of people. Or if I do make out at a party, I’d like it to be in a nice corner somewhere away from people, you know?

KATHY: Right. Right. That makes sense.

MARA: You know?

KATHY: A thing that I’m guilty of is that I tend to tell people that I’m "technically bisexual."

MARA: Yeah.

KATHY: Because – but I "round myself up" to gay or lesbian.

MARA: Yeah.

KATHY: And now I’m ... I find it easier to identify as queer.

MARA: Yeah.

KATHY: So then I don’t have to feel guilty.

MARA: Yeah, I feel that too. I mean I also thought for awhile, I’m, like, "Okay, I’m bisexual," but, you know, but people will be like, “Okay, so you’re attracted to men and women?” But some people don’t seem to understand that that can also encompass people who are non-binary. And I remember when I came out to one of my brothers, he was like – he was like “Yeah, well there’s hetero-romantic. There’s homo-romantic. There’s like ..." It’s a lot more complicated. I’m still figuring it out.

KATHY: Yeah. You know?

MARA:  I do think that queer seems to kind of fit me better.

KATHY:  Yeah.

MARA: Queer is what I feel most comfortable with.

KATHY: So I’ve heard you say that in addition to Janelle Monae, you also really love Kate McKinnon.

MARA: I do, yes. Yeah.

KATHY: And I just – I’m just curious, did you watch the Ghostbusters movie?

MARA: Of course. Yes.

[GHOSTBUSTERS MUSIC COMES IN]

KATHY: Are you thinking of the scene that I'm thinking about when Kate McKinnon’s character licked her gun and proceeded to take out all the ghosts in front of her, basically in slow motion?

[CLIP] HOLTZMANN: You just got Holtzmanned, baby!

MARA: Yes. I was like digging my fingernails into the sides and just ... eyes wide open. My friend who was sitting next to me, he was like “Yeah, Mara, you looked like you were going through something.”

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

MARA: And I was like I was. Umm...that’s definitely an embarrassing crush of mine. But I guess it’s not embarrassing because like everyone . . . [LAUGHS]

KATHY: No, I don’t think it’s embarrassing at all. We’re all in this together.

MARA: Yeah, exactly.

[CREDITS MUSIC STARTS]

KATHY: Alright, that's our show!

TOBIN: Please stay in touch! One great way is to subscribe to our newsletter at our website, nancypodcast.org.

KATHY: Credits! Our producer...

TOBIN: Matt Collette!

KATHY: Sound designer...

TOBIN: Jeremy Bloom!

KATHY: Editor…

TOBIN: Jenny Lawton!

KATHY: Executive producer...

TOBIN: Paula Szuchman!

KATHY: I'm Kathy Tu.

TOBIN: I'm Tobin Low.

KATHY: And Nancy is a production of WNYC Studios.

[CREDITS MUSIC OUT]

TOBIN: [SINGING] We just got a letter! [BOTH LAUGH]

KATHY: What?

TOBIN: We can't use that!

KATHY: What was that?

TOBIN: It's from Blue's Clues, okay? Anyway...

 

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