MUSIC - Jared Paul]

Regina de Heer: We're here in Atlanta asking people what exactly influences the likability of a candidate to you.

Speaker 1: I need to feel like I'm being spoken to. Even though I know you're running for president of the United States, in this moment, you're talking to me.

Speaker 2: It's very important that there's a sense of reliability, but I think the biggest piece is, how does it impact the next generation?

Speaker 3: Likability has to do with their personality, their temperament and their policies. As far as whether I would vote for them, it has to do with their policies. Me, I look at economics, I look at government expenditures, investment, taxes, and how that going to affect me in the long run.

Speaker 4: As a very proud Southern Black woman, I think what is most paramount is who is going to preserve our democracy, who's going to give everyone the best chance to see what the American dream is.

[MUSIC - Jared Paul]

Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome to the show. We are coming to you this week from the studios of our partners at WABE in Atlanta. We're here in Georgia because this state is once again going to be pivotal in this election. Early voting has started and I was out by a polling site yesterday. Shout out to the dudes who cornered me to make sure I'm going to vote. I got to say, I took note. They were a group of outreach workers decked out in Planned Parenthood gear who were all Black men about my age or younger. Now, listen, if you, like myself, are a Black man, you have surely noticed that everybody all of a sudden has become super interested in what we think about politics.

That's because if enough Black men vote for Donald Trump or fail to vote at all, particularly in a place like Georgia, it could indeed doom Kamala Harris' campaign. Understand this, that it's a given in American politics that a majority of white voters will support the Republican presidential candidate no matter who it is. A solid majority of white voters have chosen the Republican in every election since exit polls began sorting by race, which is 1976. From Gerald Ford to Donald Trump, this has not changed. That means Democrats got to win everybody else to even have a shot.

They got to particularly run up the Black vote. The Trump campaign has tried to exploit this weakness by specifically targeting young Black and Latino men. They've been open about that as a key part of their strategy since at least the spring, and thus a new public obsession with the political thoughts and desires of Black men. That is where we begin in this week's show. I'm joined by a prominent businessman here in Atlanta who is, yes, a Black man. Omar Ali is the owner of two local steel and real estate companies. He spent decades in the construction business and very much identifies as in the middle politically more purple than red or blue. Omar, welcome to Notes from America.

Omar Ali: Kai, thank you for having me here. It's a wonder to be here.

Kai Wright: I want to start by acknowledging my own frustration with this newfound obsession with the political opinions of Black men. I think it's disorienting for a lot of us because the public conversation about Black men, it is typically limited to sports and dead bodies with police bullets in them. We can be gladiators and martyrs and that's about where the curiosity in our lives stops. How has this moment landed for you, though? This is not a new conversation for you.

Omar Ali: It's not. It is a bittersweet moment. This is something that my father and I started probably 11 years ago, this particular movement. To see it come centerfold in so many different other organizations doing the exact same thing, it's about time I do think it's the right movement that we're headed in when it comes to Black men because my philosophy is we're one. You have Black women, you have Black men, and for the longest, people have been trying to divide us. The only way that we can combat that was to develop a movement for Black men. We knew eventually we were going to come back together and have the theory of being just one, one Black family.

Kai Wright: Just to name that movement you're referring to, you and your father and others have started a political organization that is dedicated to driving Black men to the middle of the political conversation. That's right?

Omar Ali: That is correct. We started it eight years ago. Justice, Equality, and Economics, but the forethought was economics. What can we do in our community from an economic standpoint? Everything else is a symptom from the lack of economics. The crime, healthcare, education is a symptom from lack of economics.

Kai Wright: Setting aside for a moment your own voting, what does it mean to you to be in the political middle, and why is that important for Black men?

Omar Ali: It's important not just for Black men, but for Black families, more in particular for Black men. When you look at it from an economic standpoint, every other culture and every other race sits in the middle. You look at the Jewish culture, they sit in the middle. You look at the Asian culture who has 450,000 net worth. You look at the Hispanic culture, 49,000. You look at the Black family, we're at 27,000 net worth. In theory, if we sit in the middle, we can get one from either side. If you understand the psychological and the warfare part from it, that no one is going to participate.

No one is going to help you if they don't think that you're willing to go their particular way or if you're not willing to threaten them to go the opposite direction. From a war point, if I can just use that analogy, I think it is critical that people understand that we sit in the middle.

Kai Wright: From political leverage-

Omar Ali: Yes, that's a better way to put it. Absolutely.

Kai Wright: -to get what we need. Your voting record itself has been a part of a conversation. You voted for Republican governor Brian Kemp in his race against Stacey Abrams here in 2020. Abrams ultimately lost that race to Kemp and some Democrats, everyday folks see it as a cautionary tale for Kamala Harris in Georgia now because there's a lot of conversation about whether Black men supported Stacey Abrams enough. Who are you supporting in this campaign?

Omar Ali: Make no doubt, we are supporting VP Harris. She is the candidate of choice. We may have voted Republican in the past and we still will vote Republican in the past, but this particular race, it's VP Harris.

Kai Wright: Why is that? How would you contrast the choices then and now, and Do you think it's appropriate to contrast them at all?

Omar Ali: I think you can. When we met with our Governor Kemp, we told him our economic policy and the plight of the African American family. He understood it. He listened to us we told him, "Will you help champion us? Will you champion the calls for us to get a minority bill passed here in the state of Georgia?" He did that with House Bill 128. If you fast forward now meeting with Harris's team, we explained to her that we have to have policy on the books for African American economic policy and what can be done with that.

We had two things that we wanted to get on the books. The only thing that we need was the understanding that she would try to champion that. Not a hard yes, because we wouldn't dare ask a potential president a hard yes. Do you understand this particular policy? Is this something that we can get the community and the United States and Congress behind to try to champion?

Kai Wright: Listeners, we're going to talk the whole hour about how gender is shaping this election and all the issues that people have on their mind that go through that lens. We'd love to hear from you. Have you noticed the campaigns trying to reach you based on your gender? How are you reacting to that? Is gender on your Mind as you consider this election, or is it not? Call or text us at 844-745-TALK, that's 844-745-8255. The economy and business questions is our core for you.

They seem to be a core for a lot of demographics in this election. You said there's a couple of things that you felt like were important for Black men, specifically, I suppose, for VP Harris to support you. Can you name those things?

Omar Ali: I can. If you understand, in 1998, the federal government did away with SBA direct lending. SBA direct lending was a tool that small business, particular minority Black-owned business utilized. The government does a great thing at checkboxes. Do you meet this particular criteria? If you do, here's your loan. We asked them, "Can you bring back SBA direct lending?" What that does is move us out of private banks who will discriminate against us and put us back into the hands of the banks to make loans.

The second thing is, can you bring back individual surety bonds? Individual surety bonds allowed African Americans to put up their own property, put up their own money in order to get a bond, in order to get a federal contract. If you take away individual surety, now we're back in the hands of private insurance companies who can discriminate against us based upon financials or whatever they may want to do. You bring those two back, within 10 years, it will revolutionize African American business from a contracting perspective, and that will flow down to the states as well.

Kai Wright: It's super nuts and bolts stuff, which is not feelings and vibes and the like. If you had asked those questions of the Trump campaign and they said yes, would it be just the same to you to be like, "Okay, I'd support Trump campaign then"? Is that transactional in your mind, do you think?

Omar Ali: To a degree, yes. If both parties would have said yes, now we have to make a decision based upon who do we believe. That still would have been VP Harris, because Trump track record says the exact opposite. When you have a tie in that particular manner, you have to bring other analogies into it, and VP Harris still would have came on top beyond the shadow of doubt.

Kai Wright: I named my own frustration with the way the conversation has moved in the last couple of weeks about Black men and voting. Have you noticed it? How does it land with you? Let me leave it at that. How does it land with you?

Omar Ali: It was a bit frustrating for it to come at the very end. I was extremely frustrated, but then I had to check myself. Set your feelings aside, it's here, what is in the ninth hour. It's here and it's real and it's going to make an impact. A lot of my colleagues felt the same way, like why they're just now talking to us. Set the feelings aside. This is what we want. It doesn't matter if it came at the very last minute. We got it, so let's move forward with it. Let's work with it. The only person to ever put a plan in place for African American men, so let's work with that. I'm not sure if I shared with you how we came to this whole solution of moving African American men to the middle.

Kai Wright: You didn't share it.

Omar Ali: In the state of Georgia, there is 538 cities. Out of those 538 cities, 128 of them are historically Black cities, meaning they're controlled by Democrats and the elected population is 51% or more, but the overall body is 70% or more Black. Those particular cities less than 2% were Blacks also. A light bulb went off in our head, "Wait a second, we're screaming at Republicans, Democrats are not doing anything either." Then we knew the only objective that we had to do as Black men is move people to the middle because we wasn't getting anything from Democrats and we wasn't getting anything from Republicans.

By sitting in the middle, someone is going to have to deliver something for us at some particular point. Out of that, a huge movement came.

Kai Wright: There's also just the question of voting. Regardless of who you're voting for. We're tight on time, but just quickly, do you expect turnout amongst Black men in Atlanta?

Omar Ali: Turnout? We have already did an independent study within our organization. We got back about 38,000 votes. Before VP Harrison was biding, we didn't make a stance with anyone and it was about 10% people that followed us said they was going to vote, but now we're up to 94% saying that they're going to vote for VP Harris, so it has made a tremendous, tremendous movement.

Kai Wright: This is Notes from America coming to you live from the studios of WABE in Atlanta, where early voting has begun we are talking about this city's role in this decisive election. We want to hear from you. Have you noticed the campaigns trying to reach you based on gender? How are you reacting to it? Is gender on your mind as you consider this election? Whether you're Black, white or anything else? Call or text us at 844-745-TALK, that's 844-745-8255. More just ahead, stay with us.

[MUSIC - Jared Paul]

Regina de Heer: So we're out here for the Spelhouse Homecoming. What's your affiliation to the university?

Speaker 5: Class 89.

Speaker 6: Class 89.

Speaker 7: I'm a junior economics major with a minor in business.

Speaker 8: Spelman College, 2001.

Speaker 9: We go to Clark.

Speaker 10: We all go to Clark. Go CAU.

Regina de Heer: There's a presidential election right around the corner. A lot of vying for your votes right now, and so we're asking people, how does your identity affect how you're feeling this election? What is important to you this election?

Speaker 11: Beyond the economy, beyond taxes, beyond those things, it's the character of the candidate and what my vote says in terms of who I'm supporting.

Speaker 12: Student loan debt. I graduated from Morehouse, so got a lot of student loan debt but also buying a house, taking care of a parent. I have an aging parent. How does the administration look out for those coming of age?

Speaker 9: As a Black woman, it won't be Trump.

Speaker 6: Economics, safety, soundness, being able to make decisions that are going to benefit the country and not get us into danger.

Speaker 8: Making sure that we all have rights as women. I think rights are being taken away day by day, so anything that can just ensure that we are able to make choices for our own bodies without government making those decisions for us.

Speaker 7: The future of the country is at stake us as Black people, we have a voice, and we need to utilize our voice to the best of our ability to do what our ancestors fought for us to do, which is vote and use our voice for a change.

[MUSIC - Jared Paul]

Kai Wright: This is Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright, and this week we are in Atlanta at the studios of our partners at WABE. We're talking about the role of gender in this election for both the campaigns and the voters. We want to hear from you. Have you noticed the campaigns trying to reach you based on gender? How are you reacting to that, and is your gender on your mind as you consider this election? I'm joined now by Rose Scott, host of the WABE live daily show, Closer Look. Rose welcome back to Notes from America thank you for letting me hijack your mic for a day or so.

Rose Scott: As always, a little weird me being on his side.

Kai Wright: Rose and I are also joined by Errin Haines, editor at large and founding mother of The 19th, a newsroom that covers the intersection of gender, politics, and policy. She also hosts their podcast, The Amendment, and it's their newsletter by the same name. Errin, so great to have you on the show.

Errin Haines: It is a thrill and an honor, Kai. Thanks so much for having me.

Kai Wright: Let us start with you, Errin. Polling suggests a massive gender gap in this election. Democrats have a notable lead among women. Republicans have a notable lead among men. That fact in and of itself is not new, but the spread seems greater than ever. I think it predates Kamala Harris entering the race. So it's not only about the historic nature of her campaign. You have covered gender in politics for some time. Can you just put this in perspective for listeners?

Errin Haines: Yes, absolutely. Look, going into the 2024 election, we said that gender was going to be on the ballot. We know that in the two years since the Supreme Court's very consequential and landmark decision to end federal protections for abortion, reproductive freedom, the broader conversation about the erosion of freedom, the erosion of rights, that framing that Democrats have been pushing on the campaign trail in the last two years has resonated with a lot of women who have made their voices heard at the ballot box.

Whether it be in terms of the candidates that they wanted to support based on their positions on reproductive access or the literal abortion ballot initiatives that have been on the ballot in various states. Now here we have the first election in post-Roe America in this Dobbs landscape. We are seeing the impact of that, I think, as women are going to the ballot box. Obviously, now you have a woman literally at the top of the ticket, and so gender is now literally on the ballot for folks.

I think what has been interesting is how that gender gap may look different because of the conversation around abortion this year. That is absolutely an open question, particularly the race and gender of it all. I think Black women, as who we know have been the backbone of the Democratic Party for years, are still pretty solidly and enthusiastically behind Vice President Kamala Harris, but what do white women do? This cycle has been a real question. White women who have in the majority, supported Republican candidates in our modern presidential politics, what do they do with abortion on the ballot and them literally also now having skin in the game on this?

Kai Wright: It certainly seems like a lot of Kamala Harris's closing argument is being targeted at those suburban white voters or suburban voters,-

Errin Haines: Absolutely.

Kai Wright: -but that are maybe Trump disaffected, but have voted for him in the past. Rose, we were talking to Omar Ali before the show. You put us in touch with Omar in the first segment. You've been talking on your show about the big questions here in Georgia over how Black men will or will not vote and the 2020 gubernatorial campaign haunts this one because a Black woman, Stacey Abrams, ran and lost even as a Black man, Raphael Warnock won the Senate seat here. There's been a lot of discussion about whether Black men adequately supported Abrams in that election. Here's what one of your guests said about that earlier this week.

Speaker 11: With Stacey Abrams, and of course, that was a massive concern for her campaign. Would have to look at the ending polling data that was shown where it was like about 85% or more of Black men did end up supporting her. I think the conversation needs to go and surround this concept of Black men being important, which is something that has not always been the case in politics.

Kai Wright: What's the conversation about this right now in Atlanta? Is that race still hovering over this one?

Rose Scott: A full disclosure, because Omar and I have fussed about this-

[laughter]

-in terms of when it comes to what influences someone's vote, particularly when you talk about in the Black community. If you're talking about Black women and Black men, maybe they have a different lens in terms of what leadership looks like. Maybe there's a different lens in terms of who is considered electable or who is considered even in this case, presidential, as we're talking about Vice President Kamala Harris. Going back to Stacey Sabres, I had this conversation-- and I say it with affection. I had this conversation with my brothers, and I heard everything from-- I'm just keeping it real. Folks in Atlanta know me and the rest of the nation, you don't, so get ready.

Errin Haines: Rose uncut.

Rose Scott: Rose uncut. I heard, sister Rose, she's not married, I don't know. She comes across as being very directive and like she's talking down to brothers,and I'm like, "Really?" I think there is a different set of criteria for some men in general and then for some brothers. When I say brothers, they're Black men. That's my opinion. That's how I see it. Those are the conversations that I had. before we move on, I want to go back to something that Errin said because I think she hit a great point. Listen, we've been down this road before in terms of women in 2016.

There was this huge energy behind Hillary Clinton, and I'm using that word, energy I want folks to understand that there was this huge energy of support from women, but when it came to getting into the booth, that wasn't exactly executed. As Errin said, what did white women do? That energy did not turn into votes for Hillary Clinton. I think there are some different optics that white women, not all of them, but Black-- we all have different optics that we look to and that influence votes. It may not always be for the greater good of said community.

Kai Wright: I do want to say, though, that it is not the case. The data came out. It was not the case that a majority of white women voted for Hillary Clinton.

Errin Haines: Correct?

Kai Wright: It was evenly split.

Errin Haines: Speaking of the data of it all, Kai, you know who voted for Hillary Clinton in the largest numbers? Black women followed by Black men.

Kai Wright: By Black men. Correct. Let us go to the phones. I almost said speaking of the devil, and that is the wrong turn of phrase for my brothers. Errin, I want to follow up on something else that Omar Ali said in the first segment. He's talked a lot about the need to move to the middle and that that would create political leverage for Black voters, particularly in Georgia, and Black men specifically. I just wonder if you have thoughts on that.

Errin Haines: It's interesting. The way that Black men have talked about Governor Brian Kemp, for example, has been interesting because he is somebody that they have seen as good for them economically, for example, particularly when you look at the pandemic. Georgia was one of the first, if not the first state to open after the pandemic. That was because so many people were concerned about the impact that the pandemic was having on their household, on the economy, and what that meant for their quality of life.

There was also economic stimulus that Governor Kemp provided that stuck in the minds of a lot of Black men. Things like that, again, because the number one issue for Black voters, men or women, is the economy, not unlike other Americans. When you have a candidate that is focused on that or a candidate who voters believe is going to be best for them on their number one issue, I think that that is certainly a lesson that I think you're seeing both campaigns, not necessarily both candidates really, really focused on, headed into the home stretch and making their closing argument around that.

Kai Wright: Let's go to the phones. Let's go to Emily in Portland, Oregon. Emily, welcome to the show.

Emily: Hi, Kai. Thanks for taking my call. I am a trans woman. I live in Portland here, which can sometimes feel like a bit of a bubble. When I turned on the World Series last night and I saw a big ad from the Trump campaign targeting trans people, specifically targeting trans women and people like me who just want to live our lives. I just want to take my kids to school and go to my job and I turn on the TV and there's a big ad driving a huge political wedge between people like me and everybody else, I'm afraid what's going to happen in this election is not going to be a men versus women, or I should say cis men versus cis women issue.

It's going to be trans people used as a wedge to elect fascists up the ballot and down the ballot. That is what really keeps me up at night as a trans person who just wants to live her life. That's all I got to say.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that call, Emily. We'll take a couple and then talk about them. Let's go to Al here in Atlanta. Al, welcome to the show.

Al: Hey, thank you for taking my call. Real quick. As a voting block of a Black man, I do feel that it's unfortunate that they have taken so long to get to us, but to address both sides, I think that Donald Trump is really using the sexism and racist undertones to try to get to the Black men by making it sound like if you don't vote for Donald Trump, you're less of a man or you're not a strong man. The whole Joe Morgan interviews and things like that.

For Kamala Harris, I feel that even though I would never vote for Trump, and I do feel that her campaign made the mistake of targeting Black men with the legalization of weed and, those kind of terms, as if to imply that that's what's important to us. I just feel that a lot of the voting Black men are educated and business people. Just like your earlier caller, I wish they would have focused more on business-type things that they can do for us as Black men instead of trying to do these racial undertones, either weed or sexism kind of things. I feel that's where both campaigns failed. As you mentioned earlier, [unintelligible 00:25:55] voted Democratic anyway. That's what I have to say about that.

Thank you so much and I love your show, guys. Hey, Ro.

Kai Wright: Thank you for your call, Al.

Rose Scott: What's happening there?

Kai Wright: A Rose Scott fan. Go ahead, Rose.

Rose Scott: It's very interesting, and I think the ad that we're talking about here, who's featured in that ad? Just the one with Charlemagne the God and the DJ.

Kai Wright: The ad that Al Is responding to?

Errin Haines: The Emily was referring to.

Rose Scott: That Emily responded to.

Kai Wright: Oh, sorry, that Emily responded to.

Rose Scott: I believe it's the one. Look, The Breakfast Club with host Charlamagne tha God is very popular, obviously around Black folks and Black males. That is a very interesting strategy.

Kai Wright: That you felt like it was specifically trying to target Black men with anti-trans ideas.

Rose Scott: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, 100%, Kai.

Errin Haines: Yes, because there is a maniverse, but then there's also a Black maniverse, and Charlamagne's certainly at the center of that. There's a pair of transgender attack ads that are running here, Emily, if you are still with us, largely during sporting events. You see those ads running all the time. This is what we've seen from former President Trump in the three times that he has run for president. He is going to other someone. Whether it's Black folks in urban centers or whether it's migrants, be they legal or not legally in this country, and now certainly the transgender community has been a target for him to other, to stoke fear and generate enthusiasm that is fear-based among his voters.

I just wanted to speak to something that Al was saying because here you have Vice President Harris who has 107 days, basically between the time she is named the candidate and election day. She's trying to introduce herself to voters and then is also having to kind of roll out what her policies are. She just recently rolls out this Black man's agenda, which is something that you have not really seen a presidential candidate or a person who was serving as president do specifically targeting Black men.

She rolls this out, she's talking about how her presidency would benefit Black men specifically. It's true, that has not been a conversation that candidates have traditionally had with Black voters, especially with Black men. I think you saw after 2016, Black women really saying, "We want to be valued for our input and not just our output." I think that that is where Black men are now. The idea that Black men have not been dissatisfied with our political system, including the Democratic Party, that's not new, but the attention that they are getting this cycle is new, and it is certainly not unique to Kamala Harris as a candidate.

Kai Wright: As I said, it is certainly disorienting to me to hear so much concern about--

Rose Scott: Yes, because y'all don't vote, apparently, Kai. Y'all don't vote.

Errin Haines: They were happy until 2024-

Rose Scott: Absolutely.

Errin Haines: -with the state of our politics. Yes, absolutely.

Kai Wright: Quickly, Rose, before we go to break, what about Al's point, too, about the ways in which he wishes Kamala Harris just talked about business?

Rose Scott: I think that's a valid point. I think it's absolutely a valid point. I also think that when you consider that for a lot of the Trump campaign if it's not a Black politician Republican, who've been the other, I guess supporters that they've touted out? They've been athletes. You have Le'Veon Bell, you have Antonio Brown,-

Errin Haines: Antonio Brown.

Rose Scott: -you get Lawrence Taylor. Again, you're--

Errin Haines: Don't forget Herschel Walker-

Rose Scott: Herschel Walker.

Errin Haines: -Georgia's own.

Kai Wright: Delaney's not. [laughs]

Rose Scott: I'm just saying that you consider who these guys are and what they all share in common. It can be an insult that, "Oh, you just think you got to bring sports and athlete out and that's how you're going to get our attention? Al has a very valid point and he should.

Kai Wright: This is Notes from America coming to you live from the studios of WABE in Atlanta, where early voting has begun and one of the places that will be decisive in a historic election. It's just days away. We're taking your calls about how gender is informing you in this election. Have you noticed the campaigns trying to reach out to you based on gender? How are you reacting to that? Is gender on your mind as you consider how you're going to vote in this election? More just ahead. Stay with us.

[MUSIC - Jared Paul]

Regina de Heer: Hi, I'm Regina, a producer here at  Notes from America with Kai Wright. I know, I know you're loving this episode. I promise I won't hold you long, but I have to ask, have you seen what we're up to on Instagram? That's where we post questions to you that help shape the conversations that we have on this podcast. Plus, it's a great way to keep up with the show. Follow Notes with Kai on Instagram. That's @noteswithkai and we'll talk to you there. Thanks for listening.

[MUSIC - Jared Paul]

Regina de Heer: We're out here for Spelhouse Homecoming. It's a very important weekend. The election is right around the corner. Reproductive rights, does that influence you at all when it comes to this election?

Speaker 12: As a Black woman, reproductive health, that's first and foremost. The rights that I have to my body.

Speaker 13: I have two daughters, so I'm concerned about their having access to healthcare when they need it, so reproductive rights, a big issue.

Speaker 14: It's really important to me because I'm a physician, and unfortunately when it comes to reproductive health or even health for all genders, my license can be on the line if I provide care that is necessary for people if I'm doing what I'm supposed to do according to my Hippocratic oath, that I can somehow be penalized for that. It's impacting not only me but so many other physicians around me. That's something that's really important to us.

[MUSIC - Jared Paul]

Kai Wright: This is Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright, and this week we are in Atlanta at the studios of our partners at WABE. We're talking about the role of gender in this election. We want to hear from you, as always. Have you noticed the campaigns trying to reach you based on your gender? How are you reacting to that? Is gender on your mind as you consider this election? You can call or text us at 844-745-TALK, that's 844-745-8255. I'm joined by Rose Scott, host of WABE's daily show Closer Look, and by Errin Haines, editor at large and founding mother of The 19th.

We're bringing back into the conversation now Omar Ali, businessman here in Georgia, who is also working to move Black men to the political middle. He's supporting Kamala Harris this year, but has voted Republican in previous elections, wants to see Black men be more discerning in their choices from election to election. I wonder if you want to respond, Omar, to anything you heard in the last segment.

Omar Ali: Absolutely, but first, I want to thank Errin for saying-- thank you for supporting Black men. We have to understand we as Black men and Black women, we're one. One of the callers brought up a really good point and Rose hit on it. I think that the ad that Donald Trump is extremely, extremely effective. African Americans, we get targeted quite a bit for carrying the water with so many different issues. Can we fight all of the minority issues?

We feel often that now that the trans issue has been forced upon African Americans, which we're not saying that we don't support it, but we don't have the bandwidth and we don't have the resources to support that while we're trying to fight our own issues. It's an extremely effective way to get us to have that particular conversation and make us think twice, like, "Wait a second now, is this issue going to get put ahead of Black men issue or Black women issue and when we just got to the finish line?" It's an effective way of doing it.

Kai Wright: That's the definition of a divisive political tool. There's a number of things like this I want to put to y'all-- there's the scapegoating around trans people. There's also questions about migration and immigrants. We've talked on this show about the ways in which people doing reporting in Black communities, like in Chicago, for instance, are hearing a lot who feel like the anti-immigrant message of Donald Trump is resonating for the reasons that Omar has described that, "Hey, wait a minute, how come somebody's going to go in line in front of us? I wonder either of you, I see you both nodding furiously, Errin and Rose, if you want to chime in on any of this.

Rose Scott: I just think it's interesting because here you have a campaign trying to tier pain and suffering and tear oppression. One of the young brothers I had on from Clark Atlanta University this past week said, "Look as a young Black male, I cannot just totally dismiss my gay brother or my trans brothers and sisters." We can't do that. We have to be all in one sort of what Errin was talking about. Now, that could be generational as well in terms, because these young men, they were probably under the age of 24. Whereas you have a campaign that is targeting and tearing the oppression of others to make it, no pun intended, Trump Black folks. You know what I'm saying?

That strategy, whether you like it or not, yes, that's a strategy. What folks have to be able to do, in my opinion, I'm not telling you how to vote, but be able to understand and look at the bigger picture why this ad is being targeted toward you.

Errin Haines: At The 19th, we write a lot about the attack that we are seeing at the national and local level on transgender Americans. The reality is othering them is a part of a playbook that has been effective. We know that that has been effective. I think that as we went into this election when we had at least one different candidate on the ticket, you had this being part of the strategy that Republicans were using. When Nikki Haley was still in the Republican primary, she was talking about transgender-- the transgender issue in sports was one of her main issues, because that was an issue that galvanized some number of her voters.

This is a conversation that's happening because it is effective, including with some number of Black voters, including Black men, but it is Effective also with his base of voters who are overwhelmingly white men.

Kai Wright: This election is so much about turning out.

Errin Haines: Absolutely.

Kai Wright: It's so much less about who you convince to do what and so much more about turning people out to vote. Speaking of which, Kamala Harris was recently on The Breakfast Club, a wildly popular radio show in the Black community. She sat down with Charlamagne tha God. You mentioned Errin, Charlamagne earlier in the hour. She's not the first candidate to do so. This has become a ritual now, but given the gender conversation, it was probably rightly seen as a big specific effort to connect with Black men. Here's a clip from what she said.

Kamala Harris: Overall, it is an agenda that understands, by the way, because we've talked already a lot about criminal justice, that the needs of the Black community are not just about criminal justice.

Charlamagne tha God: We need that money.

Kamala Harris: Yes, because here's the thing, we have brought down Black unemployment. I said this earlier to one of the lowest levels in history, but I'm very clear, the community is not going to stand up and applaud just because everybody has a job. That should be a baseline. My agenda is about tapping into the ambitions and the aspirations, knowing that folks want to have an opportunity. If they want, they should have a meaningful opportunity to build wealth, including intergenerational wealth. That's my agenda.

Kai Wright: Did you listen to this appearance? I assume you did. What did you think of her performance on there in the conversation they had?

Errin Haines: I did listen to it and I think that she was listening to Black men. There were Black men that were asking her questions specifically about what are you going to do for us should become the next president of the United States. She spoke directly to Black men in that interview. She also just sat down with Shannon Sharpe for his podcast, which I believe is going to be airing this week. Notably in Georgia, she was just here for a rally that I went to where you had very high profile Black men.

Former President Barack Obama being obviously the highest example of that, but also Samuel Jackson, Spike Lee, Tyler Perry, all making the case for why they as Black men are supporting Kamala Harris for president and also disabusing Black men who maybe are considering voting for former President Trump of why that is not a good idea. I think that you definitely see the campaign making a pretty hard push. She was in Philadelphia today at a Black barbershop and at a Black church trying to shore up Black voters, including Black men. What she said is she needs to earn every vote. It certainly appears that her working to earn that vote includes working to earn the votes of Black men in this home stretch.

Kai Wright: Absolutely. One of our listeners texts, "I think that Obama was the wrong person to have speak to Black men. This continues to be a blind spot for the Democratic Party. I'll never forget how Obama went to Morehouse, a bastion of Black male respectability, and essentially told them to pull up their pants. Shaming and scolding Black men is not going to get them to the polls." I also distinctly remember that and will never forgive Barack Obama for that. I thought, "Here you are talking to a roomful of college graduates about their need to take personal responsibility." It was really a low moment to me in the Obama administration's rhetorical world.

I want to put that to you, Omar, that text message, does that resonate with you or do you disagree with that? What do you think about what our listener said there?

Omar Ali: I agree with it, and I remember it was a slip-up. I know he just made a second slip up and I get that. We just got to set that aside. His intent was right. Slip up of words, but his intent was right some of what he's saying at the core, I understand that he just chose the wrong time to say it. We, as a Black man, we do not want to be scolded at all. We're grown. We just want the economic opportunity. What Charlamagne and the vice president did was brilliant. I do wonder if it's hurting, and I hope it's not hurting the VP's white base by focusing so much on Black agenda, Black men, and Black families.

Errin Haines: She also did call her daddy, which is a very popular podcast and speaking pretty directly to white women, Gen Z, millennial women. Then you also had the other Obama, Michelle Obama, the closer Obama, speaking last night. I missed homecoming this weekend, by the way. Shout out to all my Spelhouse crew. Couldn't be with you because I was in Kalamazoo listening to Michelle Obama make the case to women and men for Kamala Harris. She just has a clarity about the stakes of the election that is a different way of speaking to voters, including, I think, Black voters. It's not the same conversation necessarily that former President Obama was having.

I will say though, that he did not repeat the scolding and shaming when he was on stage in Atlanta last week.

Omar Ali: It was much better in Atlanta.

Kai Wright: Let's go to another caller. Let's go to Jimmy from Cleveland. Jimmy, welcome to the show.

Jimi: Hey, Kai, how are you?

Kai Wright: Very good. You want to chime in?

Jimmy: Can you hear me?

Kai Wright: We can.

Jimi: I'm not sure if the perceived embrace that Black men have for Donald Trump has anything to do with his policies. I see it more of a rejection of the Oprah-fication of the zeitgeist that Kamala represents. If you're straight and you're Black and you're male, you don't have the microphone in the zeitgeist. Clearly, right now, a lot of Black women have the microphone. There are some Black men that don't see themselves in any conversation. It isn't so much that what Kamala's saying doesn't make sense, it's just that at least Donald Trump is giving you the mic, or at least Donald Trump-- Donald Trump epitomizes a lot of things that a lot of men embrace. He doesn't care. He'll take the mic. He's taking the mic. A lot of Black men maybe wish they had-- some, I can't speak for all Black men today. It's not my turn.

Maybe I should check my email, and maybe it is my turn. All this to say that he represents this really ugly, masculine face that Black men wish they had the microphone and Kamala is just a lot of more the same. The same kind of critiques of Black men, the same kind of rejection and infantilizing of Black men and what they need. We're going to make weed legal, brothers so you'll be straight. Give me a break. I think it's more complex than that. I think it goes back past and through Kamala and not through her policies, but to where Black men feel they are in the zeitgeist.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Jimmy. There's something here that I think is important to talk about at this moment, is that men, and certainly the Trump campaign has tapped into this, of a variety of races and backgrounds, there is a political idea that the Democratic Party has centered women and centered Black women specifically. I struggle to see evidence of that, certainly in policy, but it is something that a lot of men who say they support Trump are saying. To be clear, I don't think Jimmy's saying he supports Trump, but that's what he's hearing. Rose, go ahead.

Rose Scott: This is what's interesting to me, and I've had this conversation before, before Donald Trump became the candidate for president, United States, prior to 2015, where did we hear Donald Trump's name within the Black community? Where did we hear it the most? Hip hop. Rappers shouting out Donald Trump for the billions, the power, the swag, in a sense. Also, this is the same Donald Trump that took out ad calling for the execution of Black and brown teenagers in New York. There is that whole dynamics. I don't know where some of the folks must have forgot about that, but prior to 2015, where did we hear Donald Trump's name the most? With Black men.

Kai Wright: Rose, what about the idea that--

Rose Scott: That's what I'm saying. I get it, and I get what the caller's saying, too. There is this perception what Donald Trump has represented to some Black men. Not all of them, but to some Black men in terms of the wealth and the power and the swag. Okay?

Errin Haines: This was something that Tyler Perry spoke to when he was on stage at the rally in Atlanta last week. He said when he was on his way up from homelessness to become the success that he so clearly is today, he used to watch Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, and he saw Donald Trump on a show like that. Donald Trump is somebody that has been in the water for a long time in American culture prior to his coming to politics. One of those stops along the way was the Apprentice. We all know that show. Black people were among the highest viewers of that show.

Kai Wright: Is that true?

Errin Haines: Yes, and yet they could make the distinction at the ballot box between Donald Trump, reality TV star, and Donald Trump, presidential candidate. Now, speaking to the point that Jimmy was making about Black men not really having the mic, like I said, After 2016, Black women said, "We are demanding the mic. We are demanding our seat at the table. We are not waiting for people to listen to us and give us a chance to shape the agenda that we want as we are supporting this party in such huge numbers." You've seen a shift, but that was not a shift that happened willingly?

Frederick Douglass says, "Power concedes nothing without demand." That has been the journey for Black women recently. Even they are certainly not getting everything that they want from either one of our major political parties. I don't know.

Kai Wright: We can have this conversation all day, but we're going to have to wrap it up. Speaking of the mic, last 15 seconds. You get the last word. Omar, you got the mic. What do you want to say about Black men in this election?

Omar Ali: I want to say that we have to remember that economics is our way out of this situation. Let's focus on economics. That is our power to freedom. Remember, we are one. Hashtag, we're one family.

Kai Wright: Errin Haynes is editor at large of The 19th. Rose Scott is host of Closer Look, a daily news magazine on WABE here in Atlanta. Omar Ali is a local businessman. Thanks to all of you for being with us. Notes from America is a production of WNYC Studios. Thanks to our station partners at WABE in Atlanta for their hospitality this week. Douglas Bell, Scotty Crowe, Richard Firth, Matthew McWilliams and the team at Closer Look, thanks, y'all. This episode was produced by Regina Dehyr.

Our theme music and sound design is by Jared Paul. This week we had an assist from Mike Kutchman. Matthew Mirando was at the boards for the live show. Our team also includes Katerina Barton, Suzanne Gabber, and Siona Petros. Lindsay Foster Thomas is our executive producer I am Kai Wright. Keep up with me and the show on Instagram @noteswithkai. Follow us there to join the conversation and be sure to check out our reels from the campus of Spelhouse Homecoming. It's live. Thanks for spending time with us.

[MUSIC - Jared Paul]

 

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