Melissa Harris-Perry: Hi. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry, and you're back with The Takeaway. Back in 2017, Comedian Jerrod Carmichael wrapped his HBO standup special in a pretty unusual way. Instead of the traditional final Zinger that ties together threads from previous jokes, Carmichael brought up an entirely new topic.

Jerrod Carmichael: The only thing weirder than finding out your father has a second family is finding out that you guys are that second family.

Audience: [laughter]

Melissa Harris-Perry: Whoa, these are literally the final seconds of Carmichael's previous special 8. Now his latest HBO special, Rothaniel, begins where he left off, with the secrets of his family.

Jerrod Carmichael: I carried a lot of secrets my whole life. I feel like I was birthed into them. One of my last-held secrets is my name. My name is not Jerrod. Welcome to the show, everybody. I thought it would be enormous to know.

Melissa Harris-Perry: In his new special, Carmichael reveals stories of generations of men who have been unfaithful to women in his family, and Carmichael reveals to the audience that he is gay.

Jerrod Carmichael: I was really out here lying though. That's the thing. I came out too late, like a little too late. I was 30, but it gets better [beep] for the kids. That's not for an adult man figuring himself out, they don't want that. All my friends felt like I was just duplicitous. I was just lying to them. They didn't know who I was. They all reacted like Sally Field and Mrs. Doubtfire. They were like, "The whole time?" They were very--

Audience: [laughter]

Melissa Harris-Perry: It's a remarkably honest set for the still emerging comedian, and it earned him some of the best notices of his career, as well as an Emmy nomination for Outstanding Writing for A Variety Special. Carmichael also made a splash in April when he hosted Saturday Night Live.

Jerrod Carmichael: Ladies and gentlemen, Jerrod Carmichael.

Melissa Harris-Perry: It was the weekend after the Oscars, and his monologue was all about not talking about "The Slap." It earned him another Emmy nomination for Outstanding Guest Actor in a Comedy Series. Additionally, this spring, Carmichael released his directorial debut on the count of three. He also stars in it. The film is now streaming on Hulu and follows Carmichael's character and his best friend over the course of a day in which they are both considering suicide. I sat down with Carmichael to talk about this moment in his career. We begin with the relationship between him and his viewers.

You ask a lot of your audience in Rothaniel, you ask us to sit with some uncomfortable silence. It's surprising, I guess, to me a bit to hear you say that, that even that you're working on that because it feels you were asking us to work on it.

Jerrod Carmichael: [laughs] In Rothaniel, I'm definitely working on it in real time and that became part of the piece. It's definitely part of the story, but it's all a result of me self-exploring, reading a lot, psychoanalysis, just really trying to get answers and understand and accept myself. It starts with me. It's a lot of reflecting in order to get strong.

Occasionally, if something feels urgent, then you can try and make something of it. Like try to make Rothaniel, or sometimes it comes out On the Count of Three, like the movie or TV show or something.

It's just occasionally, you can bottle it and make something. That's part of how I work through it. Yes, I guess it's a reflection of what I'm going through. I think the audience started asking questions even in the room. When I was on tour, the audience would ask very thoughtful questions. My friends joke and says, "It's the first time I've heard a comedian get heckled by intelligent thoughtful responses." I was going through it in real-time. I think my next show will be more complete and more about answers than questions, but who knows? I'm saying that now. I guess I work on it and just see.

Melissa Harris-Perry: What is it with comedians and the melancholy. The swiftness with which you move back and forth even as we're talking between, I don't want to call it sad, but a kind of melancholy introspection and then the joke? We so often hear some self-protective from the troubles of adolescence, but it feels maybe something more than that. How do you experience it?

Jerrod Carmichael: I always rebelled against the-- It had almost become cliche that comedians are sad. I've done interviews and people ask, "So you were probably unpopular in high school, right?" I'm like, "I was coolest [beep] in high school, and I've only gotten stronger." [chuckles] Very talking about it. I was always wanted to rebel against those things. I think that I've never really been able to make sense of it, but I think comedians often are drawn to what's wrong or that is usually what makes a joke, a bit of chaos on opposite side. I think a constant awareness of that. It's just comedians are very aware people.

No matter what version, like if you're very topical, just being inundated with that much news and information. It makes you aware, in control with I think to that place. A lot of times is processing trauma in some way. Even the act itself, I think there's a demand for it. The flipping of something melancholic into something that can make you laugh. I do think that that makes people feel better, gallows humor exists for a reason, and I think a lot of people are going through things that they may or may not run from.

Comedians are magicians who can turn sadness into something else. Yes, mostly deal when sadness, [chuckles] tragedy, sadness, what's wrong. I'm sure I could get a joke about a rainbow to work though if I really focused my energy.

Melissa Harris-Perry: You could definitely get a rainbow job to work. Come on now. That would [unintelligible 00:07:27].

Jerrod Carmichael: I'm saying like a all uplifting positive. That's not even a rule. As I say that, that's not necessarily a rule, I'm just trying to answer the question. I think that that may be a possibility. Yes, it's what's interesting. It's very interesting.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: We're getting even realer with Jerrod Carmichael after the break, so stick with us. It's The Takeaway.

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You're listening to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. I've been talking with comedian, Jerrod Carmichael about his latest special, the Emmy nominated Rothaniel. In the special, Carmichael comes out as gay. He reveals the ways in which generations of men in his family have kept secrets from the people in their lives. It's fascinating to watch, but it raises some questions for me.

Now, I will say I'm a little worried. I'm worried about you as one of my people. I mean here not just Black folk, not just Winston-Salem folk, but folks with intergenerational madness in our families.

Jerrod Carmichael: [chuckles] Madness. What a delightful--

Melissa Harris-Perry: Madness and you are out here telling it. Like, come on, sir, I'm concerned. Talk to me about that decision.

Jerrod Carmichael: No, let me ask. Is the concern rooted in what a certain amount of vulnerability that that evokes?

Melissa Harris-Perry: Yes, I want to be sure that you are still invited to the cookout.

Jerrod Carmichael: I'll put it like this. I don't think that being Black and being self-aware are mutually exclusive. I think that a lot of those feelings and those deep-rooted family traumas that's become secrets and that everyone just agrees to bury and never speak about, I think, at least I hope that there's a generation coming that won't allow it or at least will progress past just families existing with elephants in the room and these marks that no one speaks on because I think it's unhealthy. It didn't serve us.

It didn't serve anyone to have these things. Also, you have to connect with what's rooted in shame. I had a conversation with my dad before doing the special. He was like, "I heard you are working on a stand-up again." He was like, "Are you going to do a new special?" I was like, "Yyes. Why?" He was like, "I just want to know, are you going to talk about me in it?" I said, "Why are you asking me this?" He said, "Because what you do you mean and it hurts my feelings." I'm like, "I hurt your feelings. Oh my God."

I was asking him why and he said that I put our family business out there. I put all of my business out there. I'm thinking about that like what could he mean by that because this is a man who I've seen talk about his open heart surgery to other people waiting in line at IHOP. I've seen him get very personal. He could tell anyone who would listen that his son had a TV show and I was like stop doing that. Just very, very open about a lot of things except the things that he had shame attached to.

Like you would tell anything unless you're ashamed of it. I think it's important to acknowledge what that is. Talk about what that is and try and be free from it. At least try and because I love my family and I want us to move toward openness. The short answer is yes, you can invite me to the cookout but just know I'm going to bring up the fact that our uncles stole $3,000 from grandma. Whatever little thing that we're like tip toeing around, I'm going to talk about.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I want to talk about SNL. One of my show's producers actually saw you workshopping material in Brooklyn before you hosted and he said you didn't seem sure just what you were going to talk about then but then the slap.

Jerrod Carmichael: I'm not going to talk about it. I want to be clear up top. I talked about it enough, kept talking about it. Kept thinking about it. I don't want to talk about it and you can't make me talk about it but I got a question. Do you want to talk about it?

Melissa Harris-Perry: Can you talk to me about how that monologue came together?

Jerrod Carmichael: I had no idea. I was going to talk about something personal and that didn't necessarily feel right for the tone of the show. I was trying to figure out what that was in 10 minutes and then that happened. I didn't want to talk about it. The bit was just my feelings toward it. I did want to discuss it. I was over it. Lauren came into my dressing room. He was like, "I think you need to talk about it." He said the nation needs to heal. Turn your back on me Lauren, nation needs to heal. I said, "The nation needs to what? You want me to do that? The nation don't even know me."

It seemed like it demanded something. My thoughts on it were probably just like a little too-- I don't know if that was the place. I don't know if that was the place to even get into that. I'm not the person. I was trying to get Chris to come. I was going to go, "Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Rock." Just gave him five minutes of whatever emotion he was in. The time, it didn't work. I was down for that because that would've made great television. That's what mattered to me. The fact that it's live and trying to deliver on the promise of that. It's so rare you get that opportunity to speak to millions and millions of people immediately?

Melissa Harris-Perry: I want to know a bit about what is next. You said you want to talk more about answers instead of just the questions. What is that going to look like in your next act?

Jerrod Carmichael: I think I have to just explore it. I have to just find them first but the energy I put out in the stand up has to be true. It has to have some urgency. The energy that I'm seeking in my own life is what I want to capture in my work, is what I'm trying to say. It's funny because things that I try and fix in my personal life, I'm trying to be present constantly always. I'm very present on state. It's something about live and there's something about cameras now more than ever. It makes me feel really calm and present. That's probably unhealthy but true.

Melissa Harris-Perry: That was comedian, Jerrod Carmichael. His special Rothaniel is out on HBO max right now and his directorial debut On the Count of Three is streaming on Hulu.

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