Nancy Solomon: It's The Takeaway, I'm Nancy Solomon in for Tanzina Vega. Last night, Hollywood celebrated a very unusual year for the industry at the 93rd Academy Awards. Nomadland ended up taking home the award for best picture. This year's ceremony also came just weeks after an expose was published in The Hollywood Reporter, featuring extensive allegations of abusive behavior and bullying by Oscar-winning film, TV, and theater producer, Scott Rudin. Even if you don't know Rudin's name, the chances are high that you've seen something he worked on. His credits include Sister Act, School of Rock, and No Country for Old Men, among many others.

He's part of a small group of people who have won an Emmy, Oscar, Grammy, and Tony. Former employees of Rudin alleged that the producer created an extremely hostile workplace. While Rudin did not comment on The Hollywood Reporter's article, he did issue a statement to the Washington Post apologizing for his treatment of employees and also stating that he'll be stepping away from a number of projects he had in the works. In a few minutes, we'll speak with two of those former employees. First, we're joined by Tatiana Siegel, executive film editor at The Hollywood Reporter who broke the story on Scott Rudin's allegedly abusive behavior. Tatiana thanks for being here.

Tatiana Siegel: Thanks for having me, Nancy.

Nancy: Tell us some of the specific stories that you were told by former assistants of Scott Rudin that really stuck with you.

Tatiana Siegel: It was a lot of thrown objects. That's the thing that stuck with me is that sort of intimidation of knowing that an object could be hurled at you at any moment. I heard people tell me about staplers, baked potatoes, a glass bowl, a teacup. There were just anything that he could get in his line of reach that he would throw at employees and it was terrifying.

Nancy: Actually sent at least one employee to the emergency room.

Tatiana Siegel: Two that I'm aware of. One was because he smashed a Apple monitor onto the hand of an assistant and it shattered and that assistant was taken to an emergency room in New York. Another employee had a panic attack due to stress and was taken away in an ambulance and never returned.

Nancy: His behavior has been described as an open secret in Hollywood. Why do you think it hadn't been reported before or extensively reported before?

Tatiana Siegel: That's a question I can't answer because it should have been. It was something that I know at least in the post-me-too era of 2017 and on, people were looking closely into behaviors that no longer would be considered acceptable. He was somebody that by all means, should have been exposed because the behavior continued. I know that at least one outlet had been working on an expose and it was shelved somewhat mysteriously, and it was something that was right for the picking.

Nancy: You wrote a little bit about how some of the ways that Rudin allegedly swept his behavior under the rug. How did that prevent people from going public in the past?

Tatiana Siegel: I think what kept people from going public in the past was more the threat of non-disclosure agreements and non-disparagement agreements that every employee had to sign. When I got people to talk on the record, there was definitely that concern. I think that people at this point were just ready to tell their story, enough is enough, and the fact that it was continuing to go on years after what would be considered Hollywood's reckoning, was something that people who had worked there were just finally ready to speak about.

Nancy: We're hearing now from many assistants of Rudin but what about the big-name stars that have worked with him over the years? Has anyone come out and responded to him and his behavior?

Tatiana Siegel: No, it has been pretty much crickets across the board and that is somewhat shocking because Hollywood has been very vocal on a number of issues. Here is something that one would think would be clearly easy to comment on and yet everyone has remained pretty much quiet. Hugh Jackman, who was ready to do a play with Scott Rudin, The Music Man on Broadway, finally issued a statement after a week or so of people writing about the fact that Hugh Jackman still hadn't commented.

He wrote a statement or presented a statement that was pretty like barely a statement. Nothing forceful or wow, this behavior is something that is just horrific. It was more like, I'm glad Scott Rudin stepped away from the play. It is quite shocking and has not gone without people noticing the fact that Hollywood remains silent about this.

Nancy: To what extent do you think this behavior is widespread in Hollywood? How typical is it with other producers and executives?

Tatiana Siegel: Based on the responses I've received since my cover story ran, I guess I would say it's pretty widespread. I don't think anybody to my knowledge was as prolific an abuser of his staff as Scott Rudin, but definitely, I'm getting a lot of responses now do fill in the blank. There's a lot of people who have been mistreated and not in a way like, oh, so and so was asked to order lunch for them and that was demeaning. It's just horrible yelling at people and making them feel completely worthless, throwing them out of meetings and humiliating them in front of talent, and the kind of behavior that it would really qualify as just sadistic, pointless, not helping make a project go any faster or better.

Nancy: Tatiana Siegel is the executive film editor at The Hollywood Reporter. Tatiana thanks so much for joining us.

Tatiana Siegel: Thank you for having me.

Nancy: With me now to discuss their experiences are Evan Davis and Amanda Pasquini, who both worked as assistants to Scott Rudin. Evan, Amanda, thanks so much for being here.

Amanda Pasquini: Thanks for having me.

Evan Davis: Thanks for having us.

Nancy: Let's start with you, Evan. You worked for Rudin in 2012, let's start at the beginning. How did he treat you in the first days on the job?

Evan Davis: It didn't take a long time for the behavior that I had been told about to emerge. I think it took about 24 hours which I'm also told is a long time for his abuse to start showing up. It's as exactly as everyone has described, it's berating, screaming through every media you can imagine to your face, over email, texting on the phone pretty much at all hours of the day. You had to be available for 16 or 17 hours a day for him to be in contact with you. It was relentless. It was exhausting. You quickly forgot that this wasn't normal behavior because this is all that you experienced every single minute you were in that office.

Nancy: Did you see any of the physical violence that's been described? The throwing of objects, the injuring of people?

Evan Davis: I personally did not, but that is not to say that that wasn't completely normal and that those stories aren't completely believable and credible. There was just too much of that negativity and that kind of energy and also enough stories from current and former employees for you not to believe that that happened.

Nancy: Amanda, what about you? You started working there in 2017. What was Scott Rudin's initial behavior like towards you?

Amanda Pasquini: Actually, my first week was a dream because he was on vacation. My first week I was actually by myself with the other assistants. Like a lot of people layout in the multiple articles that have come forward, the assistance, it's like a brotherhood. Everyone looks out for each other and they certainly prepared me for what was to come. My interview, one of my colleagues said to me, if you get fired in the first couple of days, it's truly not personal, that just happens.

I knew nothing about him going into the job. I had never heard of him. I was actually having a really hard time finding work. I was very early career professional, which seems to be the people that they were employing at the time as assistants. From the moment that he stepped in the door and I met him, every day of my job moving forward I was wrong about something. There was no success in that position.

Nancy: Did you know going in a little bit about him or was it just hearing from other co-workers that you learned of the toxic work environment?

Amanda Pasquini: I knew absolutely nothing about him. I think I googled him on my way to the interview in the elevator. The first thing that came up was worst bosses of NYC and I was feeling a certain way while I was in there. That office and my time there, I will say feels like a fever dream from the moment they handed me a Fiji water in my interview to my month there as an assistant, it was quite a roller coaster.

Nancy: Sounds like it. What was the structure like within the workplace? Were there higher-up employees that you could speak to about Rudin's behavior?

Evan Davis: Technically, there could have been. I mean he had a human resources manager on staff who would onboard you, but it's a very small office and I think that was a very deliberate decision on his part to keep it small in order to control the people below him and make sure that there wouldn't be a chain of command that could circumvent his behavior or place a check on his behavior. There's only about a dozen people in the office at any one time and we all reported directly to him.

There was no filter, aside from the solidarity, you felt with your other assistants, as Amanda pointed out, you had no other recourse. Particularly, for example, when I was there, we heard about a workplace termination lawsuit by a former employee that was in process but as a development executive said, "Scott's too rich and has too many lawyers for him to worry about it." Once you hear that, you realize that there really is no redress for your grievances.

We certainly weren't unionized, that's for darn sure. We just didn't have any other choice, especially when you're told by others in the industry, "If you can survive this job," and that is the language that's often used, "If you can survive for a year, your career will be set, you can write your own ticket in Hollywood." Those are really effective tools to make sure that you don't step out of line too far.

Nancy: Do you think that's why it took so long for this to all come out, that people treated it as okay, I have to go pay my dues and take the abuse, but then I'm going to profit from it in my career later?

Evan Davis: I think that's certainly part of it. Another part of it is that I know that many former employees were required to sign non-disclosure agreements. I personally was not, which is why I'm a little bit more comfortable speaking on the records than maybe some other employees are. I think another part of it is that talent is very, very supportive of him. Tatiana mentioned in her segment how very few practically no talented actors, writers, directors who work with him are willing to speak up about his behavior because he has been so successful for them either in making money for them or in ensuring that their projects see the light of day. He works in film, but he also works in television and theatre. He has a very wide network of talent that he works for.

Nancy: We're almost out of time. Amanda, I wanted to be sure to get to this. We've been told that the hostile workplace was particularly bad for women and people of color. How do you feel you were treated as a woman compared to your male colleagues?

Amanda Pasquini: Yes, I would love to comment on how just incredibly brave it was for a lot of the women to come forward in The Hollywood Reporter expose, where all of this started. My experience as a woman there, something that I just want to make sure is included, his attitude trickled down. That environment is how future leaders were made. The male colleagues that I worked with, they were watching this man succeed by treating women this way and they went on to build their careers.

Yes, was I treated differently, and was I treated in my own experience poorly compared to my male colleagues? Yes, and I believe that he planted a seed in some of the people I worked with for them to take that to other institutions or other companies that they were working with.

Nancy: Did you see a pattern where men moved on and women were run out of the industry because of the abuse?

Amanda Pasquini: I saw my male colleagues cheered on while I was made to repeat my mistakes to him like a schoolchild or told constantly, in my own experience, that everything I was doing was wrong, that I've been doing things wrong for six or seven weeks when I had only worked there for three, just making it out to be-- and I think like Evan said, that's how he controls the assistants, just making them believe that you're worthless and in my own experience, that certainly rang true.

Nancy: Amanda Pasquini and Evan Davis are former assistants to Scott Rudin. Evan, Amanda, thanks so much for sharing your stories with us.

Amanda Pasquini: Thank you so much.

Evan Davis: Thank you.

Nancy: We've reached out to Scott Rudin's team for a statement. We'll post it on thetakeaway.org when they respond.

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