[music]

Protester: Say his name.

Protesters: George Floyd.

Speaker 1: We the jury, in the above-entitled manner, as to count one, unintentional second-degree murder while committing a felony, find the defendant guilty. Same caption, verdict count two, third-degree murder perpetrating an imminently dangerous act, find the defendant guilty. Verdict count three. We the jury, in the above-entitled manner as to count three, second-degree manslaughter, culpable negligence, creating an unreasonable risk, find the defendant guilty. This verdict agreed to this 20th day of April 2021, at 1:45 PM.

Speaker 2: America, let's frame this moment, as a moment where we finally are getting close to living up to our Declaration of Independence. We frame this moment for all of us, not just for George Floyd. This is a victory for those who champion humanity over inhumanity, those who champion justice over injustice, those who champion morals over immorality. America, let's lean into this moment.

[cheering]

Speaker 3: George Floyd mattered. He mattered because he was a human being, and there is no way we can turn away from that reality.

Protester: George Floyd.

Protesters: George Floyd.

Tanzina Vega: After just 10 hours of deliberation, a jury in Minneapolis found former police officer Derek Chauvin guilty on all three charges in the murder of George Floyd. It was largely the result of a video that stunned the nation. Last May, Chauvin kneeled on Floyd's neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds, killing him as community members looked on in horror. The guilty verdict while rare was a sigh of relief for many in Minneapolis and beyond. Black Americans and other people of color have come to expect the legal system to work against them, especially when it comes to police accountability. According to the New York Times, about one-third of officers who are charged with murder or manslaughter in killings committed on the job are actually convicted.

President Biden: This can be a giant step forward in the march toward justice in America. Let's also be clear, such a verdict is also much too rare.

Tanzina Vega: President Biden speaking about the guilty verdict on Tuesday night. By Wednesday morning, Merrick Garland and the Department of Justice announced that they would be investigating the Minneapolis Police Department's policing policies.

Merrick Garland: It will include a comprehensive review of the Minneapolis Police Department's policies, training, supervision, and use of force investigations. It will assess the effectiveness of the MPD's current systems of accountability and whether other mechanisms are needed to ensure constitutional and lawful policing.

Tanzina Vega: While yesterday's guilty verdict was celebrated by many, social justice activists say there's still a long way to go to ensure the justice system works for all, and others are still calling to reform or abolish policing as we know it. I'm Tanzina Vega and the guilty verdict of Derek Chauvin is where we begin today on The Takeaway.

[music]

Tanzina Vega: Aaron Morrison is the national race and ethnicity writer for the Associated Press and he joins us now. Aaron, welcome back to the show.

Aaron Morrison: Thanks so much for having me.

Tanzina Vega: Jami Floyd is the senior editor for the race and justice unit at New York Public Radio. Jamie, always great to have you with us.

Jami Floyd: Tanzina, it's an honor to be with you today.

Tanzina Vega: Let's start with you Jami, you are both an attorney and a prominent eminent expert and scholar, and journalist. There was a lot of emotion. What was your reaction to this?

Jami Floyd: Right. This was guilty, guilty, guilty. Guilty on all counts, guilty on three counts to have murder. I cannot say I was surprised, the prosecution put in a stellar case, they really prosecuted this case thoroughly and well. Of course the case was a strong one to begin with before they even stepped into the courtroom, but knowing what we know about white police officers killing Black men in this country, I think everyone was on edge. We all exhaled. We on the side of right exhaled. I say that knowing that I'm to be objective as a journalist, but one has to use common sense and decency as well when evaluating the facts of a case.

I've covered hundreds of cases. I think I can be fair and objective in saying that I exhaled. There was a catharsis, I think, nationally when this verdict came in. Now, of course, Tanzina, the question on the table is what happens next?

Tanzina Vega: That's that, we're going to get to that in just a moment. Aaron, you are on the scene in Minneapolis. Tell us about that moment when the verdict was read.

Aaron Morrison: Well, I was out actually at the site where George Floyd was murdered, 38th Street in Chicago Avenue. About a year ago, I found myself there responding to what was growing protests over his murder. What I found this time, initially before the verdict was read, it was quiet. It was almost like a space of reverence for the idea that no matter what the decision was going to be, that that was still going to be a place where people drew inspiration and fortitude for whatever fight was ahead. The moment that verdict was read, I was standing next to a Black woman who had a mask on I said, "I can't breathe."

All she was doing was jumping up and down, screaming hallelujah, and thanking God. I asked her, why did she react that way? She said because, for the last 11 months, she has woken up early every morning, she said 6:00 AM, and she would get on her knees and pray for justice for George Floyd. Of course, many people are saying there's no justice if George Floyd is not alive in with us today. I think for a lot of folks, particularly at George Floyd square, which is what 38th Street in Chicago Avenue was called now, I think for a lot of people there, this was just a moment that they are so relieved to see given that they probably thought it wasn't going to go this way.

Tanzina Vega: Jami, how important was the video of George Floyd's killing, which I know was introduced multiple times in the trial? We've had other cases, we've seen other cases where Black men and women have been killed by police, they themselves are unarmed, and the videos have not rendered a similar verdict. How important was the video here?

Jami Floyd: It was critically important, Tanzina. There are a couple of reasons. The principal one being the nine minutes and 29 seconds. Here we're not talking about a split-second decision where an officer and his or her department can say, "Well, even though there's video here, the officer was acting in the course of duty and had to make a difficult and split-second decision. We can't second guess an officer in the field and in the heat of the moment in a split second." This wasn't a split second. This was nine minutes and 29 seconds, and the globe, the world, Tanzina, was watching over and over again this horrific nine minutes and 29 seconds.

The prosecution played not only the video shot by the then 17-year-old young woman who testified but other bystander video that was shot from various angles, plus we had body cam tape video because the officers had their body cam going. There was a lot of capture of this horrific extensive time, and four and a half minutes of it during which George Floyd was nonresponsive. That was critically important. I would say more important than any witness, any expert witness, any bystander witness, and they were all extremely compelling. It was much like the Rodney King video, which sparked as we all know, the uprising in Los Angeles when those officers were acquitted

It takes me back to the images of Selma that sparked the civil rights movement. These kinds of images are incredibly impactful in the course of our history. We've seen again a movement after that nine minutes and 29 seconds shot around the world.

Tanzina Vega: Aaron, I'm wondering also about we know that this movement after the death of George Floyd last summer, the coalition of Americans who were coming out and showing out to protest both the killing of George Floyd, the killing of Breonna Taylor, and others, Ahmaud Arbery, were also themselves full of different types of people. You had white people, you had Black people, you had Latinos, it was a multi-ethnic, multi-racial coalition. You being there in Minneapolis on the ground, are you hearing a reaction from Black people and non-Black people as far as the verdict? Are people giving you similar reactions or are you hearing different reactions depending on who you talk to?

Aaron Morrison: Absolutely. Sometimes in these situations, I feel like in the past, we've been here before. We've had guilty verdicts of police officers who have killed Black Americans. Sometimes those guilty verdicts bring about a sense of, "Well this doesn't mean that much. There's still so much rotten in the criminal legal system." I think that could be said even now, but yesterday's mood after the announcement of the verdict was quite honestly universal relief and excitement and joy. That after 11 months, this is what not only what the community in Minneapolis gets to experience, but the entire nation and the world gets to experience.

As far as the activists, I didn't speak to one yesterday who said they didn't put much significance into what the jury's decision was. This is Black activists that I spoke to. Some of them based in Minneapolis, this was average folks on the street back at George Floyd square. I spoke to one family, this was white mother and she brought her child and she said, "Look, I just want my kid to understand that there can be justice for Black people, that there can be justice for unarmed Black men." I think you will see that continue. I get the sense that people know that there is a fight ahead, but they also know that this is a significant moment and it should be honored and held.

Tanzina Vega: Jami, let's talk about some of the legal specifics here. There are three charges that Chauvin was found guilty of. Can you tell us the difference between the three charges?

Jami Floyd: Murder two and murder three are both crimes of intent, different levels of intent, and then there's manslaughter, which doesn't require any intent. He was found guilty on all three and we can dive in deeply on each of those. The judge now has to decide how to sentence based on those three guilty verdicts.

Tanzina Vega: Are there mandatory minimums in these cases or is the judge free to use his own or her own discretion on this?

Jami Floyd: The state has guidelines and the judge will look at those, but also prosecutors will make recommendations based on the [unintelligible 00:12:40] and again, the nine minutes and 29 seconds as well as Chauvin's record of discipline, which the jury did not hear about but the judge certainly will.

Tanzina Vega: Aaron, we see images of George Floyd in the square where he was killed. We see images on social media. What has George Floyd come to represent, especially in light of this verdict, in the fight for racial justice?

Aaron Morrison: I think that the biggest symbol that Georgia Floyd can serve is this idea of Black folks' humanity. If it wasn't clear before the trial to folks who were questioning whether or not this was actually a case to convict a police officer, I think it became clear during the trial when you had witness after witness speaking not only to his humanity. His girlfriend speaking to what should not be a controversial idea, that Black folks also suffer and struggle with drug addiction and should be given the opportunity to seek treatment. I think there were folks who just saw his humanity. He was on the ground pleading for air, pleading for his mom.

I think it took witness after witness saying that, "Hey, what we witnessed, that scarred us." If you felt scarred by watching the video wherever you are, imagine. We're standing right there not being able to really intervene in the way we wanted to intervene. I guess they're saying all that to say, yes, this is about human rights as much as it is about racial justice, as much as it is about reforming or transforming the criminal justice system. George Floyd has become a symbol of all of those things.

Tanzina Vega: Jami, as Aaron was talking about testimony from George Floyd's girlfriend and others, what I found interesting was also the testimony from law enforcement. I'm wondering your thoughts there? I feel like there was a lot of very strong testimony from law enforcement that supported the guilty verdict, ultimately. Do you think that that thin blue line is getting weaker after watching what you saw in the trial?

Jami Floyd: I do not. I do not because of my 25 years of covering law enforcement and the long history of policing in this country that goes all the way back to Jim Crow. I think we have to be very honest with ourselves about the entrenched nature of policing, the power of police unions, especially in large cities, in New York, even Minneapolis, Chicago. That doesn't mean that individual police officers aren't interested in doing good. I've talked just this week with two or three NYPD officers who want to do the right thing, who are trying to do the right thing, who are courageously speaking with media about what's going on.

To try to reform departments and institutions that have developed over time and calcified into cultures that think and behave a certain way is very, very difficult. Power structures, power does not give of itself easily. I just want to very quickly respond to something Aaron said because I so agree about George Floyd now becoming a martyr for a cause. We've had martyrs before. Trayvon Martin comes immediately to mind, and of course Emmett Till, Medgar Evers. Think of all of them, the names that we don't say. Breonna Taylor, of course. The names that we don't say often enough, just this week there have been the shootings and killings of Black people.

There was Botham Jean, Stephon Clark. There was Philando Castile. I can go on, I can't take the whole segment. If you go down to the Legacy Museum in Montgomery, there's a memorial to lynching that has more than 4,000 names of Black people lynched in this country. 4,000 and continues to add names. We clearly have to break this cycle and systemic violence in our country against Black and Brown bodies, Black bodies, African American bodies. This moment that we all witnessed was a reckoning for people who did not want to reckon with it before. For African-Americans, there's no reckoning. We've been reckoning. We know.

Tanzina Vega: Given that point, Aaron, I'm wondering if there are still people who are saying, Joe Biden even said that the verdict is a step forward. I want to talk a little bit about policy probably in the next segment, but right now I wonder in terms of activists are saying that's not enough. This is one win, it's one victory. To Jami's point, I'm sure there are lots of activists who are continuing to call for defunding and abolishing policing structures in this country. Is that what you're hearing as well?

Aaron Morrison: Absolutely, precisely. Actually, one activist I spoke to yesterday, they said if this is just about getting more police officers in front of judges and juries, that doesn't actually stop the murders of Black people. We're actually trying to get to a world where lives are not lost, when Black people actually just get to live.

Tanzina Vega: There will still be calls for police, not just reform, but actual restructuring and or abolishment. Right?

Aaron Morrison: Absolutely. The defund movement has not gone away.

Tanzina Vega: Aaron, one of the biggest things that's coming out of this in terms of policy is the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act. A number of people are focusing their efforts on getting that passed. Where does that stand right now?

Aaron Morrison: That act is passed in the house but, as we know, even though Democrats narrowly control the Senate, it still has not passed the Senate because there are some holdouts. Even a couple of Democrats who are not sure that they want to pass such sweeping legislation. Let's be clear, it would be sweeping, though there are many activists out there that say it doesn't nearly go far enough

Tanzina Vega: We know activists are want to say that because they're looking at, as we discussed, this abolishing policing altogether. This would obviously work within the framework of policing. Aaron, just a quick sense of what exactly would make it so sweeping. What are some of the biggest things that it's for?

Aaron Morrison: It would put in some federal yards. A lot of people know that local law enforcement, a lot of it can be funded with federal grants for any number of police infrastructure programs. This would withhold funding from police departments that engage in regular racial or discriminatory profiling of citizens. It would ban choke holds, it would ban no knock warrants at the federal level. Of course, it would limit the transfer of police military grade equipment to state and local law enforcement, which everybody knows that's what we're seeing.

Especially last year, what we've been seeing in these protests where state police agencies and even local law enforcement had these military grade weaponry and vehicles to patrol the streets as though they are occupying a foreign land. The act, the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act deals with those issues and it would be a significant change, but again not far enough for a lot of folks.

Tanzina Vega: Jami, finally, we talked a little bit about sentencing, but what could Derek Chauvin face in terms of the range of sentencing time? Do you expect that his team will appeal the decision?

Jami Floyd: He's looking at a maximum of 10 on the misdemeanor, maximum of 25 years on the third-degree murder and a maximum of 40 years on the second-degree murder. The judge could give him the max on all three, and he could sentence consecutively, meaning 10 plus 25 plus 40. That would be a lot of time for a man who has no criminal record. Prosecutors are likely to ask for all of that. Sentencing is in eight weeks, but the judge has discretion and will consider his lack of a criminal record. However, will also consider the 17 plus disciplinary complaints in Chauvin's police record as well as the 9 minutes and 29 seconds he knelt on George Floyd's back and neck and press the life out of him.

I cannot predict what the judge will do, but he does have a discretionary range and yes, Tanzina, they will appeal this verdict.

Tanzina Vega: Jamie Floyd is the senior editor for the racial injustice unit at New York public Radio and Aaron Morrison is the national race and ethnicity writer for the Associated Press. Thanks to you both joining me.

Aaron Morrison: Thank you.

Jami Floyd: Thank you.

[music]

Tanzina Vega: Since yesterday's verdict came down in the case of ex-officer Derek Chauvin killing George Floyd, you've been calling us to share how processing the guilty verdict and what it means for you for the fight for racial justice going forward. Here's what some of you had to say.

Katrina: Hi, this is Katrina in Maplewood, New Jersey. When I heard this verdict, I had to step outside and cry and frankly, it was the first time since I heard about the murder that I even cried about it. I'm so relieved, but also apprehensive because I'm an attorney and I know that the appeals are right around the corner.

Andrea: My name is Andrea. I live in Lancaster, Texas. I'm the only Black person in my office. I literally cried when the verdict was read. I had to get up from my desk because I was literally crying tears of joy.

Alex: This is Alex from Minneapolis. After experiencing the fear and heartbreak and tensions throughout my city for the last year, I honestly don't even know how to feel. I'm in shock after having been on edge for so many months, and now having the trial be over. I think it'll take a while to really process what this decision means for our community and for the future of justice for Black and Brown folks.

Leon: Leon from Brooklyn, New York. Justice has been served. As an African-American male, I feel a little bit more at peace now that the verdict has been given in this case.

Larry: Hi, this is Larry Daugherty, I'm from Zephyrhills, Florida. Part of me is relieved because I remember what happened after the Rodney King trials and part of me is saddened that we've reached this point, and it's really heartbreaking that we have to police our police to this extent.

Shelly: This is Shelly from Florida. Black Lives Matter. This is not justice, just one moment of accountability. It's time to defund the police.

Hannah: Hi, this is Hannah Blackburn from Seattle. This brought a sense of relief, but we have a lot more murderers to convict, and a lot more police to the fund before it'll feel like justice.

Leah: Hi, this is Leah from Franklin Park. I am so proud of our system for bringing this cop to justice so that it can set a precedent moving forward.

DG: George Floyd's killer finally found guilty of all three counts. I want to cry from relief and happiness. Our country takes one small step toward matching its ideals. This is DG Doyle in Oakland, California.

Speaker 4: I am crying because small justice was served, but the light of George Floyd is still gone. He was brutally murdered in the streets of an American city. He did not deserve to lose his life. I'm wishing peace for the family.

Gail: This is Gail McDonald, I'm from Winter Garden, Florida. I wanted to say that I'm thankful for the verdict of guilty, but it's not justice. Justice would be George Floyd watching his baby Gianna grow up. That would be justice. We have a long way to go before we have justice, but I am thankful for the verdict. Thank you.

Speaker 5: I can't be more relieved. This was an open and shut case of murder and this police officer betrayed the badge that he wears. His country has a long ways to go, but this is a great first step.

Brian: My name is Brian. I'm from Denver, Colorado. It's accountability for once, but not justice. George Floyd is still dead.

Austin: Hi, this is Austin from Seattle. I'm relieved to hear the good news, but I just think without dismantling or defunding the police nothing will fundamentally change.

Terry: This is Terry from Queens, New York. I was so elated. I thought justice is finally served, but I'm also aware that if that young lady hadn't had the courage to tape what was going on, this could have turned out very different and it would have been the same old, same old. We need police reform and we need it now.

Kira: Hello Kira, Portland, Oregon. What is it Dr. King said, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." Exactly that.

[music]

Tanzina Vega: Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings with us here at The Takeaway and please keep calling. Our number is 877-8-MY-TAKE, that's 877-869-8253 or head over to the takeaway.org and click on contact us. We appreciate your takes always.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.