Helga: I'm Helga Davis. David Kyuman Kim asks us to imagine a social and economic system that's oriented towards compassion, generosity, and forgiveness. He believes that together, we are a united force that can't be stopped and he demonstrates a kind of hope. And he believes that we can have this kind of world if we purpose ourselves to do so. We talk about it a lot right here. This is my conversation with David Kyuman Kim. Who are you?

[laughter]

David: Who are you and why are you in my studio?

Helga: Oh, I know why you're in my studio, darling.

David: So I am David Kyuman Kim, the son of Charles and Ann Kim. Uh--

Helga: Confucius and Christian parents?

David: Yeah, uh, right. So, like I-- Yeah, that's right. I'm a- I'm a Christian and a New World Confucian.

Helga: Wow.

David: Yeah. So, um-- And today, I'm- I'm a dear friend of Helga's.

Helga: Yeah. Not just today.

David: [laughs]

Helga: Doesn't it feel like every conversation, uh, I don't know, part of it is, especially during these times or-

David: Exactly.

Helga: -in these times or--

David: Exactly. So everyone's feeling like the times are so heavy and thick, and so they have to name it, right?

Helga: Yeah, ooh.

David: They have to name it, right? And, um, that sense of obligation, like "What are we gonna name-- how are we gonna name it? How are we gonna explain this? And can we explain it away?"

Helga: The naming and the witnessing-

David: Mm.

Helga: -also, right? And-and having to bear witness, uh, so that people don't feel crazy.

David: That's right.

Helga: And that-- so that they can continue to function in some way that-- where they're not depressed all the time or--

David: That's right. That's right. Well-- And when you think about what it is to bear witness, it means to carry something.

Helga: Right.

David: Right. It's an obligation.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: It's a responsibility.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: So what kinds of obligations do we have in this time-

Helga: Hmm.

David: -right, to be present, to see clearly, to feel clearly? And the burden is heavy, especially if you think you're doing it on your own.

Helga: Especially.

David: Right. Are you feeling lonely?

Helga: Well, so here's my story.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: I associate aloneness-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -with autonomy and freedom.

David: Uh--

Helga: And so that-that's been my-my thing-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -right, that I've- I've not really known how to be in relationship with another human and feel autonomous and free. And what happened? I-I went to the opera the other night, and I made myself dinner because I didn't wanna be hungry. I knew it was gonna be long.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And I ate my dinner, and I went to the opera. And I wasn't feeling great, but, you know. I was like, "Oh, okay, okay, okay."

David: Right.

Helga: And before the end of the first act of The Merry Widow-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -I looked at my friend, and I said, "Move." And I ran out of the Met and threw up in the garbage can right outside the door.

David: Oh.

Helga: And then they asked me, you know, "Do you want us to call an ambulance? Do you-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -need a doctor?" And I was like, "Nope." And then the usher ran me down to the bathroom, and I was completely sick.

David: Wow.

Helga: I had to leave-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -and I got on the subway. I couldn't get on the first train that came because I was sick again and I just kept thinking, "Just let me get home. Please just let me get home."

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: "Just let me get home. Just let me get home." And I got home-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -and every hour on the hour for the next five hours, I was up.

David: Wow.

Helga: Okay. I was so freaked out by the time the morning came-

David: Right.

Helga: -that I called my ex and I said, "This happened and I'm coming over."

David: Hmm.

Helga: I packed a bag and there was that part of my brain that was like, "What are you doing?"

David: [chuckles]

Helga: "Where-where are we going?"

David: Yeah, yeah.

Helga: And I went and I've been there for three days-

David: Wow.

Helga: -allowing someone else-

David: Mm.

Helga: -who knows me, who has been in relationship with me-

David: Yeah, I know.

Helga: -who has been separated from me-

David: Right, right.

Helga: -who has fought with me-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -to take care-

David: Right.

Helga: -of me in a moment when I-I just was not able to take care of myself. And the kindness-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -with which I was met-

David: Hmm.

Helga: -is so completely humbling and I don't even have any words. But it took this for me to understand something bigger-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -which is that I'm not alone.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And then by the time my body stopped doing what it was doing, I was so weak-

David: Wow.

Helga: -and-and depleted that I just-- I said, "I'm not going to-- It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense."

David: Right.

Helga: "I'm not going to stay by myself." Daniel got on a plane and went to LA-

David: Wow. Yeah, right, right, right.

Helga: -because I probably would have gone there first.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Helga: And Daniel wasn't here. And so I went and I stayed in a place where I used to live, where I no longer--

David: Right.

Helga: Like all-all-

David: Yeah, yeah.

Helga: -of it- all of it came undone. And here I am.

David: You know, it-it came undone and you were responding to be-being undone.

Helga: Yeah.

David: Right. And so, you know, that-that idea that you associated freedom and independence with being alone and it comes at a cost.

Helga: Yeah.

David: You know, amongst the-the amazing things about your story is that you had the wherewithal to ask for help-

Helga: Hmm.

David: -for someone who has spent so much time alone to have the wherewithal, the resource, the strength, and let's say courage to ask for help 'cause you knew the person you're gonna ask help from would actually care for you.

Helga: It's- it's kind of incredible to hear you say this because I-I didn't feel courageous in that moment at all-

David: Oh, I get that. I get that.

Helga: -right?

David: Yeah, I get that. And-and-- But-but that-that mustering of, uh, a courage we don't- we don't think we have, that we don't think we're in possession of is-- it's rare and not, right? And-and so, we-we've convinced ourselves that it's rare. Someone might say, "Well, you're feeling desperate. You're fleeing." But instead, you-you actually ran toward yourself. And that's real.

Helga: That is real.

David: That's real. Like, you ran toward yourself. And in running toward yourself, you actually ran to somebody who loves you.

Helga: I know when I packed my bag, I didn't feel like I was running away from anything.

David: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Helga: It's like, "Go, go get yourself taken care of."

David: Right.

Helga: "And you can't be a person who talks about-- in talks to people about, uh, connection-

David: Right.

Helga: -and how do we cross the divide."

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: "You cannot be that person in-in this moment."

David: Right.

Helga: "Isolate." [laughs] That's it.

David: Right, right, right. Even if it is to isolate- to isolate, I mean, it means to be alone, and it also means to cut yourself off from love.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: I mean-- And so-- I mean, think about this. Like if the price of your freedom has been to cut yourself off from love, what kind of freedom is that?

Helga: Well, I'm not going all the way there-

David: [chuckles]

Helga: -with you, sir. [laughs]

David: Yeah, I got you. I got you. We went- we went a little way there.

[laughter]

We went a little way there.

Helga: I'm not going all the way there with you. What did you bring to Reed?

David: Oh. So this was a challenge for me. I wasn't quite sure. Um, election day, I stayed up probably about 5:00 in the morning in disbelief, in confusion, and pain, thinking that it couldn't have happened. Couldn't be true.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: And I finally went to bed and I was awoken by a call and a friend said, um, "You need to write something. You need to write something 'cause people are out there, they're suffering, and you need to speak to them." I couldn't get outta bed, so I was-- I just grabbed my phone and I started writing. So I-I'm gonna read you a couple of things from this.

Helga: Please.

David: Dearly beloved, we need to gather our hearts together. We need to pull those we love close to us. We need to take care of ourselves and each other because we lost yesterday, and that loss was really a death. We need to give each other the dignity to grieve, to allow for the profound sadness to have its time but not allow it to have all of our time. We need to move into this moment, not with an anger and hatred comparable to that unleashed by this new president. We need to move with and toward love.

Dearly beloved, I know you are tired and sad and confused. Everyone from all sides has been holding tight, and this morning, we are all breathless and out of breath. There's no ready calm to be had right now but I'm asking you to try to find your breath and to help each other to breathe again slowly at first until the rhythm comes back into our lungs and we begin to remember who we are, and who and what we love. Call your family and friends. Tell 'em you're hurt and sad and angry. Ask them for help.

Gather together to remind ourselves that we are not alone and that great and good souls are amongst us. Many are already calling for action and I will be with them. Nevertheless, dearly beloved, indeed, each and every one of you are truly worthy of love. Let us act with hearts of compassion and with the spirit of generosity that is so desperately absent from the lives of those who voted in this President. Justice is clear and it's a call to us. Justice demands mercy, where mercy is the loving act of bending our battered and bruised hearts toward suffering.

We need that justice, a merciful justice that seeks forgiveness and can render a good measure of care and kindness. I have hope because I have to hope. I have hope because I have two sons who will inherit this time and I love them too much to give up hope. For them and for all those you love, including this terribly flawed and broken nation, let us carry each other across these dark days. Let us be especially giving and generous. Let us be especially attentive to the hurt we are feeling.

Let us find compassion, which is to say to feel deeply and with each other, and someday, not today, that is perhaps too much to ask. Let us hope that we can extend that compassion, generosity, and love to those arrayed and hatred and who are now in power. Hopefully, someday we will be able to pull those hurting souls towards us to affirm their hatred but not to help them turn their hearts towards those who suffer, which is to say towards love. Go find your dearest ones, pull them close, tell them you love them, and let the loving work begin.

Helga: It doesn't feel to me that we can ever stop doing this.

David: Mm-hmm. That's right.

Helga: No matter who wins, who loses-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -this is not the point.

David: No, it's not. Can I ask you what you're feeling?

Helga: I was thinking a little bit about that day, the day after-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -I was here. I-I mean, I felt very-- I felt violent.

David: Right.

Helga: Um, and when I say violent, I mean I-I felt ready for a fight.

David: Right. Right.

Helga: And I was a person who-- It's like, "The brown people don't have time to be sad. This shit is about to hit us-

David: Right.

Helga: -full on. We can't be sad. We can't be in the corner crying. We have to get ready."

David: Right.

Helga: Right?

David: Right. But what is it to get ready?

Helga: Oh, I don't know but that's- that-that was what I was feeling. And I came here and there's a woman who works in the Listener Services Department and we don't know each other particularly well, but I adore her.

David: Hmm.

Helga: And she looked at me and she threw herself into my arms-

David: Mm.

Helga: -and began to weep.

David: Mm.

Helga: And all I could do was hold her.

David: Wow.

Helga: And then I had other friends around the building who were saying to me, "I can't even look at you right now." And so I would go away from their offices, and in part, I think they felt embarrassed-

David: Right.

Helga: -as white people that-

David: Oh.

Helga: -this thing had happened-

David: Yeah.

Helga: -and that they couldn't look at me.

David: Right.

Helga: And so that was very, very hard. And I think I haven't thought about that-

David: Hmm.

Helga: -since that a part of me got left out-

David: Oh.

Helga: -while everyone else was coming together around whatever they were coming together around.

David: Right.

Helga: Um, and-and-- So I'm- I'm remembering that part of myself-

David: Yeah.

Helga: -that got left behind. And I'm also just thinking about how fragile we are-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -and how important it is to be sitting across from you now-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -to have spent the last three days in the circumstance-

David: Right.

Helga: -in the protection, under the protection-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -that I was able to spend it- spend it under and the grace.

David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Helga: Um, and there's something in that that brings me to tears and-and makes me weep-

David: Hmm.

Helga: -for all of us.

David: Right. But what blessed tears if they're not just for you? Right?

Helga: Aren't you tired?

David: [laughs] Uh.

Helga: Because you're- you're modeling a very particular thing.

David: Mm. Mm.

Helga: And you're more than talking about, uh, or asking the question, what do I do-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -you're doing.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: Uh, or rather than only ask the question, how do I show up for this? You're showing up-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -for lots of kinds of conversations-

David: Right.

Helga: -with lots of different kinds of people.

David: Right.

Helga: And-and so I'm- I'm wondering.

David: Um, you know, I've been thinking a lot about exhaustion, you know, what is it to feel exhaustion, but-- and-and to live exhaustion so that-that-that, um, where you feel like you're- you're expelling breath that you don't even have. And you know, I would be lying to you if I said I'm not tired.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: But I'm not done. For me, you know, when you see me in different places speaking with different folks, any kind of fatigue, any kind of exhaustion, I feel goes away when I'm reminded that other people out there. And I'm reminded actually to get out of myself, right?

Helga: Hmm.

David: And-and to connect with people because the worst thing at this point is to keep ourselves in isolation, to keep ourselves separated from each other, to enforce a kinda loneliness, which I think does speak of the times, you know, "How could we have been left alone like this?"

Helga: How are your students?

David: Life on the campus in many ways feels, how would I put it? A bit fraught, sleepy. Not in the quiet sense but sleepy in the sense that people aren't quite sure what to do. So, you know, if you remember a year ago fall, you know, the campuses were dynamos, you know, they just-- You felt this energy, this vibrancy, and now you feel this uncertainty. Now, having said that, I'm-- you know, I just finished teaching this first-year seminar freshman in a course called Love and Justice. It was such a glorious, glorious time.

Helga: Because?

David: Because these young folks, these brilliant young folks gave themselves over to a 15-week-long conversation and I gave myself over. And I-I said this at the end of the semester. I said, "I didn't- I didn't know I needed this as much as I did." And I thanked them. I said, "I have to thank you for bringing all of yourselves to this conversation," such that rather than have a final exam or a-a paper, I had them do oral finals and dialogues as to conclude this semester because I thought I wanna honor what we did over 15 weeks.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: In the spirit of it, which is to have a conversation, a dialogue to conclude the semester. And it was just beautiful. You know, the kinds of questions that we would ask, the kinds of risks that they would take, these 18-year-olds were willing to ask these huge questions. Like, what happens when love breaks down? What happens when you can't find justice, but you know, you have to seek justice? What do you do when you can't find that wherewithal to forgive someone who has harmed you, who've caused you pain and suffering?

These kinds of questions. So can you imagine outside of a classroom to have this kind of conversation in a sustained way? And you talk about privilege, I mean, it's not just privilege, I thought like what a blessing it is that this is what I have been put on God's green earth to do, you know, to be in a space and a dedicated space and a dedicated conversation with young folks who are searching with sincerity for meaning, for identity freedom. Yeah, it was amazing.

When I give talks around campuses around the country, there's a lot of despair out there. There's a lot of despair and there's a lot of, I guess I'll call it confusion.

Helga: Why do you think they're confused?

David: Uh, they're confused about what they should be doing in the moment. They feel overwhelmed by him. They feel confused about how to make good choices in their lives. Not just the everyday choices, but the bigger choices.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: What do I do about my future? Am I on the right path?

Helga: Mm-hmm. I had a therapist who used to say to me that confusion is-is the state we engage when we don't want to feel something.

David: Oh, that's interesting. So it's to form a detachment.

Helga: Yeah. So we get confused because we don't wanna know the thing that we really do know.

David: I feel like we don't get much respite in every day. It's something staggeringly unbelievable happening.

Helga: It-it feels to me-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -that a person who could say no isn't saying no.

David: I-I-- if people weren't saying no-

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: -we would already be done. By which I mean that the force of what's going on right now, the malevolence, the malicious malevolence of what's going on right now, the ferocity of it, is so, again, all-consuming, overwhelming that people weren't saying no. If people weren't saying-- people weren't standing in defiance, we would be done. We would be nothing.

Helga: Okay.

David: And so, you know, much of what I do these days is to remind people of their defiance, but their loving defiance. And the defiance takes all sorts. It takes all sorts of expressions.

Helga: There you go with that word.

[laughter]

David: You knew it was, you knew it coming, you knew it was coming, you knew it was coming, you knew it was coming. It's a defiance, it's a refusal of evil. It's a refusal of the forces that are trying to generate unjustified suffering. And it's important to-to redirect attention and say, "Look at what you're doing. You're saying no, you're refusing to accept what's coming down the pike." Not anywhere down the pike. It's already here.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Now, will we win today? Maybe not. Tomorrow? I don't know. I think much of what we are witnessing right now is kind of a forced maturation in the culture, in the political culture, in the moral culture.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: We can't have everything, you know, children, they think they want everything. It's like, I-I want this, I want that, I want, I want it all, I want it all. But one of the marks of maturity is that, you know, you got to make some choices 'cause you can't have everything. You know, even if you are say the 1%, you can't possibly say drive all those cars and live in all those houses. You can't have everything. But to make choices and to understand that you live with those choices is a mark of our maturity. And I think it's, right now, we're not there yet.

I mean, we're kind of settling kind of adolescence. Yeah. It would be lovely if we got to live long enough to be an elder. But right now, I-- it feels like that almost a-- the petulant truculent time, you know, a lot of hurt feelings, a lot of angry words. Why is this happening to me?

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: I mean, it's like a classic adolescent question. Like, why is this happening to me? Why is this happening to us? And you're, you know, people are looking around, folks are looking around, "Who's gonna help me?" And then you realize that you are the adult in the room and it's not a comfortable place to be. It-- for many folks, it's not a welcome place to be. Most of us don't welcome adulthood. [laughs] We-we didn't- we didn't welcome-- and-and I don't mean this in a Peter Pan kind of way.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? But we didn't welcome the-the departure from childhood, but it happens. Now, we got a lot of folks out there and stuck in kind of arrested development. But if we are stuck in that arrested development, we will be nothing.

Helga: I was reading, um, Colson Whitehead, Underground Railroad-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: on the subway.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And an older gentleman came up to me and he said, "My sister, you know, not all of us were nonviolent." And I said, "Okay, sir."

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: "And you need to go and get yourself a copy of We Will Shoot Back."

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And I did.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And my question is, where is that in this moment when there is so much vitriol and hatred-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -and-and just awfulness.

David: Right.

Helga: The people who did arm themselves and shoot back at the Klansmen, at the police. Where's that in this moment? And-and is that not a necessary thing too?

David: I think the impulse, let's call it the compulsion to defend oneself.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Right. Is a necessary one. But what we choose to defend ourselves with is an important decision. You know, I mean, so the idea of like, we will shoot back is a threat, but it's not necessarily an act.

Helga: Mm.

David: You know, so like the-the promise of the threat might be the defense. Uh, I was talking to Cornel West when after he came back from Charlottesville and the, um, the marches there. It got very dangerous very quickly for the-the religious leaders and clergy who had come to march in peace. And Cornel told me the story. He said at one point they were by a Black neighborhood, and this group of Black militia told Cornel and Sekou, and the others, "You need to get behind us." And I said, "Cornel, Black militia?" He said- and he said, "Yeah, they weren't there to shoot back. They were there to protect their neighborhood."

Helga: Mm.

David: "That's why they have the guns. Like we will protect our own in this moment."

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: To respond with the same kind of enmity, the same kind of contempt for humanity that white nationalists and the-the-the-the acid that's coursing through some folks right now. In my view, but in from my traditions, is just the wrong answer. We don't wanna reduce our humanity by doing that. We wanna promise something more, promise something deeper, we wanna promise something fuller. So, you know, I think in this moment, I think there surely are folks out there who wanna shoot back, honor the impulse, honor the compulsion, and then say, what else can you do? What else might you choose in this moment that's gonna honor where you came from? Honor your people, because the-the folks out there who are trying to annihilate you, the folks out there who are trying to kill you, they don't see you as human. So why corroborate that? Why reinforce that, you know, King, Gandhi, the non-violent movements knew what they were up against. They knew that they were a cultural, they knew that they were, uh, atypical. And you always have to make the argument, which is by the way, showing up.

You know, the argument is to be there and to show folks what it is to be present in love, through love, with love, not to be low, not to be base, not to be compulsive, but to be compassionate. Where does that sit with you?

Helga: [chuckles] I don't disagree with you.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: But I feel that I sit in a place of-of some kind of privilege. Like it's a privilege to-to have these thoughts that I can't go to my neighbors in Harlem who are losing their apartments and their homes, whose sons don't have jobs, whose children have inferior educations.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And make this argument.

David: So I'm gonna disagree with you.

Helga: Great.

David: I think you can make this-- and I-I actually think you have to make this argument so that, I understand why you say you-you have this privilege that allows you to have these thoughts that somehow pulls you out of the world, right? That gives you, uh, this ability to think in a- in a kind of bracketed way. But if that's where the thoughts stay, you're right, that is privilege. Like you're having these thoughts, you're wrestling, having these moral questions challenge you. But if it's only gonna challenge you, then you're not really doing all the work.

So you go to your neighbors. Sit with them and you ask them what do they need? You ask them what it's been like. And then you say, I know you're angry. I know you're hurt. I know it's not gonna go away anytime soon, but just as you ran towards yourself, you ask them to choose themselves to resort the violence is to choose something else, is to choose somebody else. But to say, you know, in this moment, in these desperate times, choose yourself. You know, have that self regard. You know, find that dignity. Many of us are feeling six soul.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, that's a phrase from William James.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, the sick soul is seeking selves.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: But by refusing to attend to how sick we have been. I'm okay, I'm okay, this denial.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: This evasion.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: This evasion, like we're talking about heartbreak and heartache. This evasion of how hurt we are. You think you're protecting yourself. You know, these walls you put around your heart, uh, these walls you put around yourself. Your fists are clenched.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: As if you're ready to fight.

Helga: Mm-hmm. I am re-- I'm completely ready to fight.

David: You're ready to fight, but you're not fighting every moment of the day.

Helga: True that.

David: Right?

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Every fighter needs to rest. There are rounds. [laughs] There are rounds, right? You gotta get some water.

Helga: Right.

David: Right? And so you know what we just said that the accumulation of all of that stress, the accumulation of all of that denial of how much we're hurting, that became too much for you. And the body had wisdom.

Helga: Deep wisdom.

David: Right? The body had wisdom.

Helga: Deep wisdom.

David: Like, "Get that outta me."

Helga: Right.

David: "It's too much. Get that outta me."

Helga: She took me out.

David: There you go. There you go. "Now, get it outta me. It does not belong here." I mean, think about the illness pathologies. There are things in the body that don't belong there. The body's fighting them. You know, and-and marshaling armies to fight but the resistance isn't always there. You know, we talked a bit about joy earlier.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: The need for joy. We also need rest. And when I mean rest, I don't just mean sleep.

Helga: Right. Yeah.

David: Let's turn the dial maybe from 11:00 to, I don't know, 6:00.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, I'm- I'm that way too, and I get that.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: I get that. But you can't always have it up on 11:00 all the time. You can't be full volume all the time. You can't be full speed all the time. Your body said, "Sorry, we're shutting this down."

Helga: Right.

David: We're shutting it down, right? It's time to stop at least for a little while.

Helga: And from one day to the next.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: I was useless. [laughs] Well, you were totally, [crosstalk] you were useless.

David: But I'm- I'm guessing- I'm guessing you were feeling all of that for a long time.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: I'm guessing you were carrying all that for a long time.

Helga: I didn't even realize.

David: Yeah.

Helga: I really didn't.

David: When you think about the ways in which we, um, we take in stress into our bodies.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, tight shoulders, you know, clench fists, headaches, the inability to look somebody in the eye. It's all this turning away from ourselves. Refusing to believe how hard it is. We should honor those who struggle. We should honor those who suffer.

Helga: Mm.

David: Not punish them for suffering. That gets us hopefully someplace more human. So where is it gonna get us? It might get us to health, it might get us to some kind of some semblance of flourishing. God forbid, it gets us to happiness. [laughs]

Helga: Stop. Stop talking.

David: Stop that crazy talk.

Helga: Stop it. Tell me a thing that you do every day, that every person can do.

David: Ooh.

Helga: That you feel connects you to yourself, to your purpose.

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: To-- yeah.

David: Yeah. That sounds a little funny.

Helga: Mm.

David: Sometimes I have to remember to breathe. I literally have to remind myself that I can take in more breath than I am. And so like, you know, I find myself walking around in this shallow breathing.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: And I realize I'm feeling lightheaded because I haven't been letting enough oxygen into my system. So even that practice to say, take a breath and take a deep breath. That serves a couple of things, functions. One is that, it allows us some time to pause, not to have to just run in, like take a breath, take a deep breath. Now, I say this like I try to do it every day. I don't always do it every day. I should probably do it every hour. I don't always do it every hour.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Um. When I can, if I'm reminded of somebody I care about, I pick up the phone. You know, I text 'em. I don't email them. I pick up the phone and I-I-I say, I was thinking about you, right? And so what is it to make that call? What is it to tell someone that you were thinking about them? It's to make them present. Like they were present in your mind. But could we be present to each other? I'm just thinking about you. I mean, we all want someone we love to tell us that they were thinking about us.

We wanna be reminded that there are people out there in the world, as awful as it is at times, the people out there in the world that love us. So just as you called your ex, you gotta be the one to reach out to say, "Hey, I need to reconnect. Hey, I need some help." Asking for help is a sign of strength. It's courageous, but it's not a part of the culture

Helga: At all.

David: Right, at all. At all. And, um, that's a sorry state. That's a sorry state. You know, I mean, those are some of the things I do. Um, I-I mean, I get energized when I allow myself to be fully present with somebody, even if it's just in a coffee shop or, you know, chatting with the guy at the reception desk. Just connect on a human level. Again, not at-- not this transactional level. Like, "What are you gonna do for me?"

Helga: Right.

David: Like, "Is my coffee here yet?" No?

Helga: Yeah.

David: Right. But on a human level, like, "How's your day going?" You know, to ask about their humanity, to ask about what's going on for them, which is also a way of recognizing other people. I mean, so much of this-this connection is that we don't feel like we're seen. We don't feel like-

Helga: Right.

David: -we're felt and heard.

Helga: Right.

David: And, you know, it's this- it is an act of kindness. It is an act of-of love. It's an act of grace.

Helga: Well, it-it's kind of-- it goes back to my morning practice. Like, so my morning practice is to say good morning to everyone I pass-

David: Mm.

Helga: -between my building and the subway.

David: That's beautiful.

Helga: And--

David: Is it a greeting? Do you--

Helga: I literally-- I look at people and I say, "Good morning."

David: Mm.

Helga: And I make sure I say it loud enough-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -so that they hear me, so that I hear me. Um, and that the point of it is-is not about whether or not I get a response. So-so that the-the ego struggle-

David: Mm.

Helga: -is lessened. Um, but I am more and more amazed at once people get over the shock-

David: Mm.

Helga: -of having been spoken to, the joy with which-

David: Right-right.

Helga: -they respond.

David: Yeah, yeah. But think about the phrase, good morning. It's actually shorthand for have a good morning.

Helga: Mm. Mm-hmm.

David: You know, and-and, you know, I was thinking-- I didn't think about this until you just said it that if you say to somebody, have a good morning, you're giving them something.

Helga: Mm.

David: It's not just a greeting.

Helga: Right.

David: You're saying like here, have a good morning. Have a good morning. And I actually mean it. Have a good morning.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, so, it's a gift, but it's also an invitation to actually have that. I mean, you must feel that you're giving people things.

Helga: I-I don't think about it-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -in-in a-- I don't think about it-

David: Yeah.

Helga: -that way.

David: Yeah. But you feel it.

Helga: But I feel it.

David: Yeah.

Helga: Yes, I do.

David: You know what you said about it's not feeding your ego. I think it's quite important in those, you know, so that so much of what drives, let's call it, American culture is ego-centered. It's transactional.

Helga: Right.

David: Right. I'm gonna give you something, but I'm expecting something in return.

Helga: Yeah. And that felt like the first and most important thing to let go of.

David: There you go, right? How hard was it to let go of that?

Helga: Not as hard as I thought it would be.

David: Mm.

Helga: Because this is the thing I can do.

David: I see. Right. Right.

Helga: So then what I want or need is less important. What's trippy is to do it in other countries also.

David: Like where?

Helga: Uh, so I just came back from Abu Dhabi.

David: Mm-hmm. Oh, that's right. [unintelligible 00:43:15]

Helga: Mm-hmm. So that was interesting there. You're not supposed to look at these people in the eyes and don't do this, and don't do that and-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -but to just say good morning-

David: Right.

Helga: -or good day-

David: Right.

Helga: -and stick to it. So to say, "Yes, I am- I'm female, I'm American-

David: Yeah.

Helga: -I'm-I'm not trying to challenge you-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -culturally, but this is- this is how I-- this is what I know-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -and I'm offering this in this space."

David: It's what you know, but it's also who you are. I'm guessing that if you said good morning to folks in Abu Dhabi, or in Brooklyn, or in Harlem and people thought you to-- felt you to be insincere or inauthentic, they wouldn't take it.

Helga: Right.

David: That's who you are.

Helga: Mm.

David: You know, I was in, um, South Korea earlier this fall, and, uh, [chuckles] my family, uh, members were giving me a hard time. They said, um, "Dave, you're a hugger, right?"

[laughter]

Helga: Uh-oh.

David: You're-- yeah. Uh, and-and, uh, you know, my-my uncle said, um, "Well, Americans are huggers, right?" And I said, "No-

Helga: Mm.

David: -they're not. We're not. I wish we were."

Helga: Mm.

David: I wish we were meaningful huggers. Like, when I think about hugging, it's- it's to close that gap between folks, literally pull somebody to you.

Helga: Yeah.

David: And for them to pull you to them.

Helga: Yeah.

David: Right. And then to stay there, to stay in that space where there's no gap, you know, through the anxiety, through the fear, through the question, you're like, "What's going on here?"

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: [chuckles] You know.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Why do I feel so-- what is this good feeling?

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Why do I feel so strange? You know, which can be a-a kind of a sad question, which is, you know, like, "Why don't I have more of this in my life?"

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Right. So when you say, good morning, have a good morning, here. Ma'am, sir, have a good morning. Let's close that gap.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Let's not have anything sit or stand between us except us, you know. And that's a moment where you come together with your neighbor and it's not just you make the argument say, you know, "Have a nice day."

Helga: Right.

[laughter]

Helga: Well, that's-that's another thing too-

David: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -that it-it feels, um, like I'm making a commitment.

David: That's right. That's right.

Helga: A commitment to stay and to-to be part of a conversation.

David: That's right.

Helga: And that it is not just this thing of-of, uh, you know, asking about stuff and--

David: Mm-hmm. Well, have a conversation, but also to have some community.

Helga: Right.

David: You know, it's like a, you know, a coming together, embedded in that word community.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: It's common. And so, you know, you come together, so you build something that you couldn't do on your own. Your neighborhood's struggling, you know, as you say that-- because of, uh, under-resourced, inadequate education, and social support and spiritual deprivation. People are tired now, but they're also hungry.

Helga: Yeah, that's for sure.

David: They're hungry and we're hungry for things that are really gonna sustain us, right? 'Cause, you know, right now, it's like, um, people a-are eating a lot of things, but I think those things are eating them alive.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Like anger, like enmity, like vitriol, like contempt. You know, you eat those things and they eat you.

Helga: Yeah.

David: Right. You consume those things and they will consume you. And, you know, to go to your neighbors to, as you say, make an argument, you're not really making an argument, you're actually inviting them into a different way of life.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: And that's a powerful thing. That's a powerful, powerful thing. You know, when I wrote there of mercy as bending a heart towards suffering, you know, it's really a, um, it's really a hope.

Helga: To be your dearly beloved.

David: That's right. It's, um, dearly beloved because you are loved.

Helga: Right.

David: And I, you know, I-I was mindful after the fact that David, [chuckles] um, this translation of beloved.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

David: Yeah.

Helga: Thank you so much.

David: Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

Helga: Ooh. We're being asked to orient ourselves towards love-driven politics. Well, we've started here. You can reach out to me on Facebook. I'm Helga Davis. Thank you so much for listening.

Announcer: This episode of Helga was edited by Krystal Hawes with help and mastering by Irene Trudeau and original music by Alex Overington. New Sounds senior producer is Alex Ambrose. To learn more about New Sounds and to discover handpicked genre-free music 24/7, visit our website at newsounds.org

 

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