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Melissa Harris-Perry: Since the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Kremlin has made clear, in Vladimir Putin's Russia, dissent is not welcome. Still, thousands of Russians have protested the invasion risking fines, detention and imprisonment.

[crowd chanting]

Melissa Harris-Perry: The rare sources of independent radio and TV news in the country have gone silent, including Echo of Moscow and TV Rain. Earlier this week, a producer for a government-run television station interrupted a live broadcast holding a sign that read, "Don't believe the propaganda, they're lying to you here."

Speaker 2: [Russian language].

Melissa Harris-Perry: Subsequently, she was arrested and detained for nearly 24 hours before being fined several $100. Russian lawmakers passed a new law at the beginning of March making it a crime to spread what they deemed fake news, which includes calling the conflict in Ukraine a war. The law includes penalties of up to 15 years in prison. Because of this, several Western media organizations decided to pull their journalists out of Russia. Bloomberg News, CNN, and The New York Times have moved their journalists out of the country because of concerns over the new law and their staff's safety. We spoke with someone who's in this situation right now.

Anton Troianovski: I'm Anton Troianovski, the Moscow bureau chief of The New York Times.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Troianovski told us about the decisions that led up to this point.

Anton Troianovski: We had spent a very intense and difficult few weeks obviously as it has been for so many journalists covering the war. For the times, we were totally committed to covering Russia. We've had a presence in Moscow actually for over a century. As this war was unfolding and as Russia's crackdown on the independent media was unfolding in the first couple of weeks of the war, we were of course watching very closely to try to understand whether that crackdown would affect Western journalists who are working in Russia. In early to mid-March, it was becoming clear that in fact, the risks were rising.

Melissa Harris-Perry: After the new Russian law was passed--

Anton Troianovski: It was looking pretty clear that potentially that law could be applied to foreign journalists. We made the decision that given the fact that, of course, the safety of our staff is paramount, we made the decision to temporarily base our Moscow-based news reporters outside of the country. I'm in Istanbul, that has become the hub for a lot of people who are leaving Russia right now.

There's many thousands of journalists, activists, tech workers, basically lots of different types of people who have left Russia and are now outside the country and trying to figure out what to do next. For us, like I said, we're committed to covering Russia, we are very much looking forward to getting back into the country as soon as we can understand essentially the risks that we're facing as a consequence of this new law.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Troianovski told us his biggest concerns reporting from Russia, and how that has changed in recent weeks.

Anton Troianovski: Of course, the security of the people you're talking to. You'd never want to be in the situation where if you're operating in an authoritarian country, that you are putting people at risk by interviewing them, for example. That span of concern that's been on our minds for years reporting in Russia. I would say right now, it's only intensified because of course, under this law, again, we are only starting to see it implemented. Again, it's still too early to tell. In theory, under this law, if you, for example, were to quote someone who is deviating from the official narrative about the war in Ukraine, are you putting that person at risk? That's one of the things that we have to think about right now.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Even before the invasion began, Russia was ranked 150 out of 180 countries in the Reporters Without Borders' World Press Freedom Index. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. We begin today's episode of The Takeaway by asking, why does press freedom matter when reporting a war?

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Melissa Harris-Perry: Talking now with Clayton Weimers, deputy director of the DC bureau of Reporters Without Borders. Welcome to The Takeaway, Clayton.

Clayton Weimers: Thank you, Melissa. It's great to be here.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Let me begin with that first question I just posed. Why does press freedom matter when reporting a war?

Clayton Weimers: Frankly, if we can't see it, if it's not reported, it's as if it's not happening. Really, press freedom is essential not just in a crisis like we are now, it's essential at all times. You really can't have a participatory democracy without a free press.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Right now, what are the conditions for journalists in Russia who are trying to report on this war?

Clayton Weimers: In a word, bad. The situation for journalists has always been fairly precarious in Russia. They've been subjected to arbitrary detention, arrest, harassment, even murder. A media organization that step too far out of line can find themselves tied up in the legal system or shut down altogether. Since the war in Ukraine, things have gotten quite a bit worse. Russia has passed new media laws that, frankly, have made the free press a thing of the past in Russia. For example, you've probably heard that the Russian media is not allowed to use the word war on the air. It can only be referred to as a peacekeeping operation.

We've seen a number of media organizations shut down by the government, a number of others have been forced to self-censor and avoid even talking about the war in Ukraine. Anecdotally, Reporters Without Borders know of about 600 cases of journalists trying to get out of Russia. It's actually one of the things we're working on is trying to help secure visas and safe passage out of Russia for any journalist who feels under threat of persecution or potential arrest.

Melissa Harris-Perry: You just laid out Russian journalists working within Russia. Talk me also a bit through the foreign press and the decisions made particularly by Western press to pull their reporters. It seems to me the very fact that the reporters were there previously suggest that maybe there had been at least some sense that there was an opening or a space to do one's work. Talk to me both about the conditions for Russians and for non-Russian press who are reporting there in the ground.

Clayton Weimers: Sure. The conditions have always been a little bit two-tiered in a sense. Foreign press have always had the advantages of the audience outside of Russia and the resources of their organizations behind them. There's always been at least a modicum of respect paid towards the press because the Kremlin understands that, especially if you harass the foreign press, it's just going to be a bad look all around the world. That hesitation to go after the foreign press seems to have dissipated during the war. Vladimir Putin has really gone all-in on controlling the media in Russia.

That's why you see organizations like the BBC, for example, come under the target of the Kremlin and get taken off the air. That's why you see digital platforms like Facebook and Instagram being banned. We're really in a new era here ever since Putin invaded Ukraine. Both foreign and domestic press are effectively unable to do their jobs in Russia. I think that's a big motivating factor in why so many foreign press have pulled their reporters, but also it's a simple question of safety. The situation is very fluid, things are changing, no organization wants to be responsible for its reporters getting thrown in jail or worse.

Melissa Harris-Perry: As Russian forces are attacking and the situation is dangerous, we have actually seen multiple journalists killed. Do these constitute war crimes?

Clayton Weimers: Yes, plain and simple. Targeting journalists is a war crime. In fact, Reporters Without Borders has already filed a complaint at the ICC. We're in the process of documenting every known case of an attack against a journalist, and that can mean a killing, it can mean roughing up, it can mean a disappearance. There's been a number of disappearances of journalists that are deeply concerning to us.

What is clear is that the Russian army is being rather indiscriminate with its targeting. It's going after civilians, it's going after journalists. These are not justifiable targets in a war. Reporting from a warzone is always dangerous, but when you add in the indiscriminate targeting of the Russian forces, this is a deadly situation.

Melissa Harris-Perry: What are the other ways that either general public or non-profit organizations and your NGOs may be trying to assist Ukrainians in this moment can also help to make reporting somewhat safer, at least at this moment for journalists in Russia and Ukraine?

Clayton Weimers: Just this past weekend, Reporters Without Borders launched the Lviv Press Freedom Center in Lviv, which is in Western Ukraine. One of the more stable parts of the country where it's still fairly safe and the war hasn't quite impacted it as much. What that center provides is just a physical place that any reporter covering the conflict can go to and get support, whether that's financial support, digital security support, bulletproof vests and helmets, tourniquets, first aid kits, or it can really even just be a place to go charge their phone and file their story away from all of the conflict.

It was a decision we made very early on in the conflict that we needed to do something on the ground in Ukraine, and this is what came of it. I want to make it clear that if there are any reporters on the ground in Ukraine, this is a resource for them in Lviv, the Lviv Press Freedom Center that Reporters Without Borders has set up.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Presumably, at some point, the bloody aspect of this conflict is going to come to an end. What is this going to mean for independent media, for press freedom in Russia?

Clayton Weimers: That's a great question. I don't think anyone knows it. I'm not sure Vladimir Putin yet knows. Part of the road back if Russia wants to be respected on the world scene again, if it wants to be welcomed back into the global community has to be a greater respect for the free press.

Access to free information is essential for any democracy. I don't think we're kidding ourselves thinking that Russia is going to become a democracy overnight after this war and that things are just going to go back to not even normal, but there is no normal anymore. It's an essential step that future leaders in Russia are going to have to take to dismantle the negative legacy that Vladimir Putin has created for his country.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Obviously, part of media now is the access to this direct reporting from citizen journalists who are telling us their stories directly through social media routes. What are the dangers for these citizen journalists who don't have the press pass, who can't write media, but who are nonetheless so critical at this moment in getting information to us both out of Russia and out of Ukraine?

Clayton Weimers: You mentioned the lack of accreditation is a problem. That's a problem not just because they can come under easier targeting from Russian forces, but the Ukrainian forces are also on the lookout for anyone they might deem suspicious or possibly a Russian agent. Just by the nature of being a reporter going around asking questions taking pictures, that can look suspicious if you don't have the proper accreditation, if you don't have the press badge on your shirt or on your vest or on your helmet.

Often, citizen journalists don't even have the protective gear that is necessary to stay safe in a war zone. They definitely face unique challenges, and they don't have the resources of a large media organization backing them in the case that they require exfiltration or need to get to a hospital or something. It is a dangerous time for any journalist, but citizen journalists, we take our mandate just as seriously to protect them.

I just want to take this time again to urge anyone who is on the ground covering the conflict who needs support, if you can get to Lviv, our Press Freedom Center is there for you to be a haven for any reporter who needs a safe place while they're reporting on this conflict. Of course, if the general public wants to support it, it is an entirely donor-funded project. You can go to rsf.org and contribute today if that's something you're interested in supporting.

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Melissa Harris-Perry: Clayton Weimers is the deputy director of the DC bureau of Reporters Without Borders. Thank you for the work that you're doing.

Clayton Weimers: Thank you very much for having me.

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