David Remnick: Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. There are 435 voting members of the House of Representatives and in recent years, the House has been very closely divided between Democrats and Republicans, divided and profoundly unfocused and undisciplined. With its committee blowups and steps of the Capitol, demagogic rants, it's a realm of dark and chaotic comedy.

Now, the exception in this picture has always been Nancy Pelosi. She spent eight years as the speaker of the House and many more as the minority leader of the Democrats. Her stewardship of consequential legislation, major bills like the Affordable Care Act and the Inflation Reduction Act, its legendary. She was not only the first woman to lead either chamber of Congress, but also the most effective congressional leader of modern times, maybe since LBJ and she's also one of the most vilified leaders for sure.

She's been the target of endless threats from the right and a vicious assault inside her own home that injured her husband severely two years ago. Last month, whether she'll admit it or not, Nancy Pelosi seemed to be the power broker with both the political craft and the emotional intelligence to finally push Joe Biden to the conclusion that it was time for a new Democratic standard bearer. The title of Pelosi's new book is short, and it's apt. The Art of Power.

Your book opens with a really powerful chapter about the hideous assault on your husband so I have to ask you, how is Paul Pelosi doing? How's his health?

Nancy Pelosi: That's so nice. Thank you. He's good. He's about 80% there. Getting hit on the head it has ramification, it continues but thank you for asking. He's such a good sport. He does all that he's supposed to do in terms of therapies and stuff, but he's not very political at all. Every now and then he'll say, how did this happen? But thank you for asking. It's a horrible thing. Physical damage is one thing, the trauma of it all for our children, our grandchildren. It's really sad. It happened in our home, you know, in our home, but thank you for asking.

David Remnick: There were rooms that you wouldn't go into for a while.

Nancy Pelosi: Yes. It's sort of creepy for me to be in our bedroom because he went in there, you know, went into our bedroom, but the garden room where he came in, where he banged his way in. We wouldn't go there for a long, long time

David Remnick: Where you watch games on TV and you hang out.

Nancy Pelosi: Yes, the family room. It was the elevator. This house is like, you know, San Francisco have it like that--

David Remnick: It's really steep.

Nancy Pelosi: The steep steps. He was not in good shape but he would not get on that elevator no.

David Remnick: Even despite the damage done or that he's recovering from, he would use the stairs instead of that elevator just to avoid it. [crosstalk]

Nancy Pelosi: Just to avoid it. Yes. To tell you the truth, David, we have never, ever had this conversation. We've never had the conversation about what happened that night. What I know about it is what was testified in court as in the public domain but he's never-- We've never had the-- [crosstalk]

David Remnick: Because he can't remember anything or because he just doesn't want to talk about it?

Nancy Pelosi: Well, the doctor said he doesn't want him to revisit it but apart from that, I think he knows it would be very painful to me to hear what he went through. Guy's after me and he gets my husband. Really?

David Remnick: That's right. They came looking for you in the way they came looking for you on January 6. Where is Nancy.

Nancy Pelosi: Where is Nancy. Same thing. Same thing. Same thing.

David Remnick: But it's not as if this has gone away, which shocked me, maybe more than anything other than having to-- Also, you quote Donald Trump Junior, you know, saying I've got my Paul Pelosi Halloween costume ready and all of Trump's own insults. That was shocking, but I already knew it but you're still getting assaults on the house. Severed pigs’ heads and blood splattered on the garage door.

Nancy Pelosi: Some of that precedes it. In fact, what they said in court was that the investigator, I don't know if it's the FBI or whoever it was, said that the pig's head was the most recurring theme in the assaulter's social media. That pig's head really motivated him but that was a different group. A lot of what's happened since then in the middle of the night and all that is about Gaza and [unintelligible 00:04:52] so that's a separate issue. Those people are not even from my district mostly who come and genocide, all of that. Hopefully some of that will go away.

David Remnick: Barbara Walter was a guest on some time ago we interviewed her, who's written a book about violence in American politics and her fear of things like a civil war. What is going on in this country in 2024 that's different than November 1963 or the summer of '68? Is this a more violent time in our politics?

Nancy Pelosi: What is going on in our country is Donald Trump.

David Remnick: You lay it all at his feet.

Nancy Pelosi: Absolutely. I'm not saying that he invented some of the negativism, but he exploited it, he normalized it. He's horrible in every way. Great in being a great snake oil salesman so he sells a bill of goods and people buy it. It's a sad thing. We have in the country you have let’s say that 30% they will never vote Democratic. Discriminators, some would say haters, but I'm not using that word.

David Remnick: Or the word deplorable you don't want to use.

Nancy Pelosi: Oh, no. No, I'm not talking about them. These people are just hopeless. Then there are people--

David Remnick: 30% of the country you see is hopeless.

Nancy Pelosi: Oh, no, the Republicans.

David Remnick: Oh, I see. Okay.

Nancy Pelosi: Then you have people who have legitimate concerns and they are concerned about their own and their children's future in terms of their concern. Afraid. Globalization. They saw the factory down the road go overseas. Innovation. I'm a truck driver, but now they're going to have driverless trucks. Immigration. Immigration probably has the least to do with their economic insecurity. In fact, immigration would grow our economy, but they don't see it that way. Then they are afraid women, people of color, LGBTQ taking over roles. You know this and that but they are not necessarily haters or anything. They're just concerned. I said way back in 2016 when one, I hate to use his name.

David Remnick: We'll say Donald Trump, I think is who you're referring to.

Nancy Pelosi: Who?

David Remnick: Donald Trump.

Nancy Pelosi: It is Donald Trump. I think the electorate was divided between those who saw a future for themselves and their family and the new economies and those who did not. That's what Joe Biden deserves so much credit for because with his agenda which was really spectacular. I mean, he's just been a remarkable president with everything he did. The rescue package and all that shots in arms, money in pockets, children back to school safely, people back to work, child tax credit, 50% of the children in poverty, out of poverty. List goes on.

All of these things. Infrastructure, the bipartisan infrastructure. 13 Republicans in the House. 13, but nonetheless, 13 because the left didn't want to come so I had to go get Republicans to pass the bill because yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? I can--

David Remnick: Because yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

Nancy Pelosi: I say that because I'm a San Francisco left wing. Okay.

David Remnick: Right.

Nancy Pelosi: I can say these things about the family here. Right.

David Remnick: I think we can argue-- [crosstalk]

Nancy Pelosi: IRA, IRA, $370 billion to save the planet. Remarkable.

David Remnick: Totally remarkable and any other time would be a great argument for a second term for a president. I have to ask you, and I know this is a complicated thing to answer. You're watching that debate, that first debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, what are you seeing and what are you feeling?

Nancy Pelosi: Well, first, let me just say why this election is so important is because that is all at risk. My goal is he will never step foot in the White House again. Winning an election is a decision. You make a decision to win, and then you make every decision in favor of winning. All I wanted was a better campaign because I did not see a campaign that would beat him. Wise misrepresentation. People think the economy's better under him so that night, I was startled because I had never seen that. People say, you must have seen it. No, I never saw that.

David Remnick: In other words, you'd never seen Joe Biden come up short like that.

Nancy Pelosi: Never. No. In fact, earlier in the day when I was with the members, they were like, oh, what the hell is it going to be? Trump will be so awful. I said, don't worry about it. Joe Biden, State of the Union is going to show up. It's going to be great. He had it. He was going to do it. He felt great and I had confidence in him. I didn't think it wouldn't be good, but anyway. Then that happened and I think everybody was stunned. It was stunning.

David Remnick: You did something that I'll never forget. There was a lot of noise, a lot of calls for Joe Biden to step down as a candidate. I was one of many who wrote a column saying that many politicians-- You did something on July 10. You came on morning, Joe, and you said, it's up to the president if he is going to run. By the way, this is when Joe Biden has already said, I'm staying in. It's up to the president if he is going to run. We're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short. He's beloved, he's respected, and people want him to make that decision. Then you went on to say, I want him to do whatever he decides to do and that's the way it is. Whatever he decides, we go with. Now, I'm guessing you've read Machiavelli in your life, and even more than that--

Nancy Pelosi: You're just saying that because I'm Italian.

David Remnick: Yes, but that way of putting things was to give it a phrase from a certain book of yours, the Art of Power and the language of power, that certain things are said and certain things are left unsaid. How much do you think through what you're going to say on a show like that because you knew damn well what you were doing.

Nancy Pelosi: When they asked that question--

David Remnick: You knew the question was coming.

Nancy Pelosi: I was hoping not. I was stuck how to talk my way through my five minutes and get out of there.

David Remnick: No such luck.

Nancy Pelosi: Yes. No, here's the thing. I've known Joe Biden for over 40 years, since I was chair of the California Democratic Party and I love him so much. I think he's been really a fantastic president of the United States. I really wanted him to make a decision of a better campaign because they were not facing the fact of what was happening. I take some responsibility for the House. We couldn't see it go down the drain because Trump was going to be president and then he was going to take the House.

Imagine, imagine how that would be. I mean, we don't have to imagine. We saw. The only thing he did when he had the Congress and the White House was to give a tax break that had 83% of benefits going to the top 1%, $2 trillion to the national debt and that's all they did and they want to get elected again--

David Remnick: You were talking to one person. You were talking to Joe Biden in a certain kind of language. How would you describe that language? It was almost the way a mother or a father who was particularly good at being a parent tells a child who's already made a bad decision, I'm waiting for you to make a decision of a different sort. You're looking at me and waiting for this moment to pass.

Nancy Pelosi: Yes, but I'm trying to think of why you're even asking it because you know I'm not going to answer it in the way that you want. I didn't plan to do that on the show.

David Remnick: It was improvised.

Nancy Pelosi: In fact, if I did, I probably would have worn a different suit or something because I didn't look too professional. Seriously, just a little background--

David Remnick: It was like you felt his pain.

Nancy Pelosi: I had never been that impressed with his political operation.

David Remnick: Biden's operation.

Nancy Pelosi: Yes. I mean, I just hadn't been. They won the White House. Bravo.

David Remnick: Right.

Nancy Pelosi: My concern was, this ain't happening, and we have to make a decision for this to happen, and the president has to make the decision for that to happen. People were calling, I never called one person. I kept true to my word. Any conversation I had with it was just going to be with him. I never made one call to-- They said I was burning up the lines. I was talking to Chuck. I hadn't talked to Chuck at all.

David Remnick: Chuck Schumer.

Nancy Pelosi: At all. We didn't talk at all. I never called one person, but people were calling me saying that there was a challenge there. There'd have to be a change in the leadership of the campaign or what would come next. Let me just say, I won't say necessarily I knew what I was doing at that time. I knew what I was doing in the whole thing, not just that shit.

David Remnick: What was that?

Nancy Pelosi: That Donald Trump would never set foot in the White House again.

David Remnick: Jennifer Palmieri, who's now, I think now on the Kamala Harris campaign, having worked for every Democrat that I can think of in the last 15 years, Jennifer Palmieri was on the program recently talking about Joe Biden's decision, your role in it, and so on. She said this, men won't say hard things. They just won't. That surprised me to hear and I think she was paying you a compliment as well, that you said a hard thing but with craft, with emotional intelligence and with political craft.

Nancy Pelosi: Well, the thing is that he had to win. Everything was at stake. His whole legacy was at stake. One thing, if I had to tell you one thing, would be I did want to remove all doubt as to what I was saying. Then what happened was people came to me and said, you gave me space. You gave me space. I said, well, my whole point then was, don't do anything while NATO is here. After NATO, then say whatever you're going to say, but don't do it while NATO is here.

David Remnick: I'm talking with Nancy Pelosi. We'll continue in a moment on The New Yorker Radio Hour. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I've been speaking with Representative Nancy Pelosi of the State of California. When Pelosi won a special election to Congress in 1987, there were 24 women serving in the House, a whopping 5.5%. She eventually served as speaker of the House for eight years. She was not only the first woman to lead either chamber of Congress, but also certainly one of the most effective congressional leaders of modern times, and not coincidentally, one of the most vilified.

Pelosi stepped down as speaker in 2023, and she's written a book called the Art of Power. I'll continue my conversation with Nancy Pelosi. Time is unmistakable and undoubtable and you decided to step down as speaker, a job that you showed every evidence of not only being great at, but loving.

How hard is it to pass the torch? What led to your decision?

Nancy Pelosi: Oh, it wasn't hard for me at all. For 20 years, 20 years I was speaker or leader. Four terms as speaker. They say she was speaker twice. No, four terms as speaker and 12 years as leader. Every day for 20 years, I was responsible for what was said on the floor by the Democrats by and large. Everybody wants titles. Everybody wants this. They want the bill to be theirs so it's a competitive arena and I thrived in it and it was lovely. Every day, especially closer to the end, say last third, I had to raise a million dollars a day.

David Remnick: How many phone calls is that?

Nancy Pelosi: Average a million dollars a day.

David Remnick: Describe for listeners what that means to raise a million bucks a day just as sheer effort and concentration. What does it require of you?

Nancy Pelosi: Well, it requires some time. Of course, you have to be at a different location from the Capitol but what has helped was the small donors. If you get out there and you're fighting and you're putting out, that day is an easier day because they respond to that. Action begets action. You don't do it by just hi, you know.

You have to show a plan. We are going to win. This is how we're going to win. No wasted time, no underutilized resources, and that means you and no regrets the day after the election. We are recruiting the finest candidates. You have to have a product, and the product is also what you're doing. You know, we're fighting for this. We're fighting for that so it's not all in the competition.

David Remnick: You get tired of the fight. Is that what happened in your own life?

Nancy Pelosi: No, I didn't get tired of it. I just, it was time to move on.

David Remnick: Enough is enough.

Nancy Pelosi: It wasn't-- I mean, the only kind of, that wasn't a regret, but the only thing I worried about was I got assembled the greatest staff in the history of the Congress of the United States. Fabulous. Every person exemplary in what their knowledge was of their subject, their strategic thinking, all the rest, everything. I thought, oh, my God, the staff is going to be dismantled, but many of them are with the new leadership so that gives me comfort.

David Remnick: Well, let's talk about the product. The new product, as you refer to it. Kamala Harris is now the Democratic standard bearer. We're speaking on a day where she just picked a running mate, Governor Waltz of Minnesota, who even beforehand you spoke very highly of and even, I think, endorsed.

Nancy Pelosi: No, I didn't endorse anybody. I love them all.

David Remnick: You love them all?

Nancy Pelosi: Yes, I love them all.

David Remnick: Why is Waltz, though a better choice, do you think, than, say, Shapiro of Pennsylvania?

Nancy Pelosi: Well, I think you'd have to ask her but here's the thing, people say, oh, who helps win? But it's more a question of who helps lead and serve and that's a chemistry, that's a dynamic with the presidential candidate. Who can she best work with? Now, I love Josh. Josh is a friend. I love him. I think he's spectacular but I also think what this did was show us Buttigieg, Brashear, Mark Kelly, Gretchen, the governor of Michigan, although she pulled herself out of it, I mean, real talent.

Any one of them could run for president, much less be vice president and there are many others, too, who might have gotten into the fray had Kamala not wrapped it up so fast because we were hoping that there would be a more open opportunity and there was, but people didn't step in. She was very adroit. Anyway, I said, you put them in a hat to pick out a name, you'll have a winner. They're all great. That came down to Josh and Tim. I don't know if it did, but that's what the-

David Remnick: It seems--

Nancy Pelosi: - public perception seems to be because, as I said, I wasn't involved in it. It cracked me up that some of the people were opposing Josh-

David Remnick: Shapiro. Yes.

Nancy Pelosi: - and they were supporting. I was like, leave him alone. Let him be himself. I served with this man. He's not a lefty.

David Remnick: Governor Waltz, you mean?

Nancy Pelosi: You know, they were kind of embracing him because he wasn't Josh. I said, what are you talking about? This is a middle of the road guy. He's there for rural people. He's a veteran, he's there for the vet. He's a heartland of America guy. He's not a lefty but you're embracing him because he's not Josh and you're tattooing yourself to him?

David Remnick: Why was that?

Nancy Pelosi: For some reason, I think they thought it was going to pull Kamala to the left but she doesn't need that. She doesn't need that. Right now we need to show that we can unify America and to do so in a way that, as has said, she's saying to the heartland, America, you're not flyover territory for us. We're all on the same team.

David Remnick: Donald Trump seems to have changed since Kamala Harris got into the race. I don't mean because he's been transformed as a human being because of the assassination attempt, which, of course, was horrible-

Nancy Pelosi: Horrible, terrible

David Remnick: - but suddenly he seems to be flailing and not know quite what to make of this new race.

Nancy Pelosi: [unintelligible 00:23:10]

David Remnick: In your book, you talk about informed opinions and serious doubts about Donald Trump's mental health. What did you learn that we don't know from watching him publicly?

Nancy Pelosi: Well, I haven't seen him. I haven't been in his company for-

David Remnick: A long time.

Nancy Pelosi: - since he was president. Yes, but he is--

David Remnick: You don't hang out.

Nancy Pelosi: Oh, my God. What a horrible thought. The president's a master of projection. Hillary's crooked. He's crooked. It's not about Hillary. It's about him. I'm crazy. He's crazy. Someone says lazy, he's lazy. I mean, he's always projecting, you know. Exactly.

David Remnick: Particular qualities that he has. You're saying. You're saying he projects qualities that he has onto others.

Nancy Pelosi: Yes, yes. I mean, he knows. He knows he's an imposter. He knows he shouldn't be president of the United States.

David Remnick: Obama went into office and his big issue, which you were so instrumental in, was health care, or at least one of a few. For Kamala Harris, what do you think that will be?

Nancy Pelosi: Well, she will make that definition but from what we have seen unfolding, you know that freedom is a big issue for her, and one of the elements of freedom is a woman's right to choose. You know, last election they said we were going to lose 30 or 40 seats. I was putting women's right to choose right out there--

David Remnick: The midterms.

Nancy Pelosi: The midterms. That we were going to lose 40 seats. I said, this is so wrong. These well-paid people in Washington and New York, they don't know what they're talking about. We're on the ground in these states. We're making a distinction with this. You're the Republican you voted against gun violence protect, against that. You voted against the woman's right to choose. You voted against the climate issues. Then they said, she is going to owe us all an apology for putting women's right to choose out there.

It's so in the rearview mirror, it's over. I said, you don't even know what you're talking about. This is a kitchen table issue. It's an economic issue. The size, timing, and if you're going to have a family, it's a freedom issue and it's a matter of respect for women. This is a big deal issue. What do we lose, five seats in New York. We'll win those back. We'll win some of them back but we'll win the rest of the country. We'll take back the House but the big hama hamas, they knew that we were going to lose 30 or 40 seats, and we knew we were not. People understand how it affects them.

Did you know we had a vote on the floor? Of course, Roe v. Wade, they'll never vote for that. Okay and I respect that. I come from an Italian catholic family. They're not way up where I am on some of these issues. They wouldn't vote against somebody because they were pro choice but nonetheless. We put a bill on the floor that said, Kathy Manning from North Carolina, women have a right to contraception. People said to me, you're giving them a way out. They're going to be able to vote for that and look sane.

Eight Republicans voted for it; 195 Republicans voted against it.

David Remnick: Which tells you what?

Nancy Pelosi: We have to get our message out there better, because this is insanity. They don't even know what's going on in their own home and by the way, some women voted for it. Wrong, too.

David Remnick: It tells you it's insanity or it tells you that the country is way more divided than we'd like to believe.

Nancy Pelosi: No, that's not true. They're not divided on whether women have a right to contraception. Come on.

David Remnick: I would have thought otherwise but look at the-- [unintelligible 00:26:50]

Nancy Pelosi: They're not a reflection of the-- They're a reflection of

David Remnick: You're saying it's a reflection of cultishness. The same part of--

Nancy Pelosi: Yes. You think-

David Remnick: Well, do you think if Trump is defeated--

Nancy Pelosi: -- they go in their district, their people are saying, please don't give me a right to contraception?

David Remnick: No, I hear you but do you think that if Trump is defeated in November, that Trumpism will be, when?

Nancy Pelosi: No, no, no. When.

David Remnick: Fair enough. Okay.

Nancy Pelosi: Say it any way you want, but when, okay. Anyway, just so you say when.

David Remnick: Then Trumpism will disintegrate and the fever will break and suddenly the Republican party will be the Republican party of [unintelligible 00:27:27]

Nancy Pelosi: No, I don't know. You know, believe it or not, I have Republican friends in power, or they were in power and they say to me, you must defeat them in the general because we can't defeat them in the primary but when you defeat them in the general, then we can go back to--

David Remnick: You're saying you have Republican colleagues who are rooting for you to win.

Nancy Pelosi: Not colleagues. I didn't say colleagues. They're all enablers. They're terrible. Every single one of them is an enabler of a Republican cult. That's every one of them. I don't know. They go home and they masquerade as moderate, but they ain't, they aren’t, not in any circumstance but anyway--

David Remnick: These are Republicans that you know in life?

Nancy Pelosi: I'm talking about people in politics-

David Remnick: Right, okay.

Nancy Pelosi: - inDC and the rest who shall remain nameless, who say you have to be, we can't beat them in the primary, you must defeat them in the general, then we'll come back and fight you and we'll have our normal debate on the issues, which is the Democratic way of a democracy. That's what we'll do. We'll defeat them in this next election.

David Remnick: I want to close by talking about your book for a second. The name of the book is the Art of Power, and it is a kind of autobiography on a certain number of issues and a kind of political autobiography in your role in these essential issues. It reminded me in some ways of reading about Lyndon Johnson in the Senate, in Robert Caro's book, the book the Master of the Senate. Do you think these political skills are thin on the ground? Where are the young Nancy Pelosis who have these skills? Not the ideals, necessarily. You probably share your ideals with any number of people -

Nancy Pelosi: Many people.

David Remnick: - but what about the chops?

Nancy Pelosi: There are very talented people there with legislative skills, and they're in the committees and they're working, and people don't appreciate that. They give Congress, at least on our side, the other side we had to adjourn a week early in the summer because they couldn't bring a bill to the floor because they couldn't get a majority on their side.

David Remnick: Is there a Nancy Pelosi in his or her 40s?

Nancy Pelosi: I think they're probably better. I always say to Hakeem and the others, my success is that you will all do better than I did because that's what I consider the success of it all but if I'm a, shall we say, freak, it's because I have no, and there are people like this there-- I have no other agenda. I don't want to run for senate governor. I don't want to be appointed to anything. This is it. When I talk about an issue, it's about the issue. It's about you and your district, our district, our congress, it's about that. It's not, well, I want to run for president one day so I want to have it on here that I asked you to do this because--

David Remnick: You're not declaring your future candidacy. How would you encourage somebody to--

Nancy Pelosi: We are going to have freedom. I have freedom and that's one of the reasons why people thought that I should be the one on Joe, because of the love I have for him. He just gave me the Presidential medal of Freedom not two months ago.

David Remnick: Do you think your relationship will be there?

Nancy Pelosi: I hope so. I pray so. I cry so, you know.

David Remnick: Do you worry about it?

Nancy Pelosi: I lose sleep on it. Yes

David Remnick: You think he's angry at you? You think he's angry at you?

Nancy Pelosi: I don't know. We haven't had a conversation.

David Remnick: What kind of state do you think he's in? What kind of state do you think he's in now?

Nancy Pelosi: I think he's in a good state.

David Remnick: Must be hard.

Nancy Pelosi: Yes, but I think he's in a good state. I mean, he did a remarkable thing bringing home these prisoners. Oh, my God, that was so masterful. You've read of course, all the complications. This country, that country this, that, the other thing and all the persuasion that it took and all the confidence they had in him that it would work.

David Remnick: Part of the psychology of this whole Shakespearean drama was that everybody told him in 2016, don't run. You've just suffered this terrible loss of your son. Hillary is running. We're going to win. Step aside. Which he did and to the surprise of everybody, he steps forward and beats Donald Trump in 2020 heroically, and has to feel a certain sense of self-justification when everybody was telling me otherwise in '16 and now the party comes to him in 2024 and says, step aside. It has to be deeply painful and he did it.

Nancy Pelosi: I don't know the party did. There were people who wanted him to stay.

David Remnick: But he did it. How do you think he goes forward? I mean, the country is the most important thing here but I can't help but be interested in the personal drama and how you view it.

Nancy Pelosi: I can't speak to that because I haven't seen him but my understanding is that he's good. The thing is, is that his legacy will go right down the drain if that what's his name ever got in the White House.

David Remnick: Nancy Pelosi. I have a final question for you. Let's say a young woman comes to you in her '20s, very intelligent, has all the choices in the world with what to do with her life, and looks at politics today and thinks it looks ugly. It looks deeply frustrating, dispiriting in every way and I have all these other things I can do in life. Why would you encourage that person to run for Congress or public office?

Nancy Pelosi: Okay, first of all, just to the tail end of your question, we don't want people without options.

David Remnick: Fair enough.

Nancy Pelosi: Every time they say to me, well, I could and I could, well, good, because that's why we want you. We don't want you because you don't have anything else to do. This is your best job. No, no. Here's the thing. What I say to young women, and I talk to them all the time. For decades, there is nothing more wholesome to the political or governmental process than increased participation of women. That's why when I came, there were twelve Democratic women. There are 94 now. I still want more, but it had to change. Twelve out of 430, 11 Republicans out of 435. Come on.

The country needs you. There's nobody in the history of the world like you. Know the power of you, the individuality of you, the authenticity of you. Know your why. Why do you want to do this? My why was when I was from housewife to house member to house speaker, was one in five children in America living in poverty. As a mother of five, in six years and seven days, mother of five, I couldn't stand that thought in this greatest country in the history of the world, that one in five children go to sleep hungry, lives in poverty. That's my why.

If you don't know your why, this is not for the faint of heart. This is tough and if you know your why, the slings and arrows are worth it. If you don't know your why, don't even do this.

David Remnick: Stay home.

Nancy Pelosi: Well, do something else because this is rough. As I said, when you get in that arena, you got to be ready to take a punch

David Remnick: It's all been worth it for you.

Nancy Pelosi: Take a punch. Willing to throw a punch for the children.

David Remnick: Throw a punch for the children.

Nancy Pelosi: Is it worth it to me? There's a Presbyterian African minister in Sierra Leone, I think it was. He nailed this prayer to the wall. He said, if it's a prayer, when one day I go happily to meet my creator, he will say to me, show me your wounds and if I have no wounds, he will say, was nothing worth fighting for? You got to be proud of your wounds.

David Remnick: Nancy Pelosi, thank you so much.

Nancy Pelosi: You're welcome.

David Remnick: Nancy Pelosi represents California’s Eleventh Congressional District, including much of San Francisco. I'm David Remnick and that's our program for today. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

 

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